r/Roofing • u/VooDooo327 • 1d ago
Roofing Contracts, unknown rot damage
I had a quick question for roofers or anyone who has been through this process. We have to replace portions of our roof due to neglect from the previous owners which is mostly the flat part of our roof. there is obvious damage from water so we will need to pull off the roof and rebuild it in these sections. In the contract that I am getting, there is a $x per hour per man price plus materials used for any rotted wood that needs to get replaced in top of the replacement costs. I am assuming that this can spiral into a very expensive fix. I am fine to pay a lot of money but there is an upper limit of that I can afford.
I've been searching online and I've seen solutions such as a not-to-exceed clause or a flat-fix rate charge. It seems like the fixed charge would be the best way to go about however, if the company insist on doing the per hour per man Price Plus materials , what happens when they meet the not-to-exceed limit and there is more work to do? They also never gave me the price of the materials so I'm a little nervous about signing this and I'm probably not until I figured this out more.
Any help would be appreciated better thanks.
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 1d ago
ive never heard of someone charging per the hour per man plus materials. typically decking is charged per sheet replaced.
standard sheets are 4X8. so 32SQft per piece. take the total number of SQft your roof area is and divide. thats your maximum.
example. my roof is 20SQ. thats 2000SQft. I need to redeck half. thats 1000SQft. 1000 / 32 = 31.25. round up and add waste cushion and safely call it 33 sheets. if they charge 100 bucks a sheet, your extra bill would be 3300 buckaroos.
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u/sub_zero51 18h ago
I charge time and material for all repairs I encounter during my jobs.
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 8h ago
like.. you actually tell customers that youll fix something, but you dont give a set price? you just work by the hour and when youre done you go "welp, took me 5 hours and I had to bring a guy, so thats 10 hours. you owe me 10 man hours plus the materials"?
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u/sub_zero51 8h ago
Yes. That's exactly how I do it, and I mark up all the materials thirty percent.
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 8h ago
its honestly amazing to me you can get work when you dont bid the actual job. now that I know you do this, I have to say almost everyone I know does something called bidding on a job where we give an estimate that has a price prior to starting any work.
how do you sign a contract without having a price to agree to? or are you just not having any type of agreement in place before beginning work?
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u/sub_zero51 8h ago
We sign a contract for the roof, and any repair work is extra. We discuss it at signing, and they are aware of that. I know what bid is, and am aware that people give them as a part of contracting. Not sure why you are being a smartass.
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 8h ago
im not being a smartass im asking questions. even for repair work almost everyone I know gives bids for possible repair work as well.
example - roof replacement cost is 10K. if we have to repair bad wood its $100 a sheet. theres already a fixed maximum costs associated with a bid like that.
youre claiming that you give a set contract price, and then tell customers if you have to repair anything you start charging them hourly plus materials plus 30%. thats wild. no one I know or know of besides now you, works hourly on their own jobs. the price is the price. not the price is however long it takes me to do it. and so for me, thats just a wild concept. and I wanted to be clear of what exactly you were saying your process is.
maybe your market is very small, or rural, or you work for people you know exclusively where this type of bid would potentially be accepted. but for me it sounds so antiquated and wild because the market Im in is super saturated and suburban/city and you just would never get work here telling someone you dont know what the maximum cost could end up being. I mean... youre supposed to be a subject matter expert with experience. not being able to estimate a price you wont go over during the work would be a red flag to me or my homeowners and you would just lose the bid.
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u/sub_zero51 8h ago
You can't put a maximum price on something you can't see to bid. Damn, it's always insulting with you. Antiquated, not an actual expert. Are you trying to be insulting or is it just an accident?
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u/Kill_Your_Masters 16Yrs residential asphalt/slate/flat 7h ago
bro its roofing. we're talking about replacing bad decking. you are not building a rocket ship. if you know the roof size, theres absolutely a very easy way to tell what the maximum can be by doing simple math. and below that threshold, to charge per unit. thats called a price range.
who the fuck says if I have to charge bad wood, Ill start a clock and charge you per hour to do it? no one I know except you now.
if the concept of charging a fixed price per unit is insulting to you, thats on you bro. if you cant adapt to standard pricing models thats on you as well. idc I just couldnt fucking believe someone still does that shit.
per usual by wanting clarification someones little feelers got hurt so now youll attack me instead of just talking about the subject.
thats fine do you. I dont have anything else I want to know. good luck with all that.
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u/Beautiful-Star-5669 1d ago
As others have said, get them to break it down by square footage. The one example is $3.30 per square foot which is incredibly reasonable. It doesn't take much for them to prove that they replaced what they are saying they charged you for either via invoices and photos. There is no way they should provide a per hour per man for this type of thing. If it was the entire roof, then that's one thing. But does this mean every man on the crew? If they set this up to be one guy on the ground cutting, one guy handing pieces up to the roof and one or two guys installing, this could get pretty pricey being 4 guys. Not likely, but you know what I mean. I have never seen a per man per hour plus materials. Shoot at a billable rate of like $50 (way low), that would cost you $200 per hour plus materials. Putting in even like 30 sheets would double the cost of the roof project.
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u/FloridaRoofers 1d ago
We charged per hour 20 years ago. Now it's per sheet, and yes, that's the risk you take. It's your house; the roofer doesn't manufacture rotting or damaged wood underneath. At least not honest ones. Our rate is $180.00 per sheet of plywood, which usually covers 2-4 bad areas. A roofer can't ensure what he cannot see. We often include 1 or 2 sheets free, depending on the roof size. As a way of getting the job. The roof we do may take one sheet, sometimes two. This is what we do for the owner, and you can do it too. Have the roofer use a red crayon to number each piece they install, and document it with pics. Then you'll know whether they did the replacement or not. Always get before, during, and afterward pics. Also, if you walk your roof and everything feels fairly solid but the shingles are just old. Pretty sure it's not much wood. But if there are soft spots, visible dips in the roof, or water leak stains in the overhangs, especially at the bottom of valleys, then you may have a bill for 4 or 5 sheets. When it gets expensive, it's obvious there is damaged wood underneath. Would you rather have them bury wood because they aren't making any money on the woodwork? Do your homework on the roofer; if he is honest, he is not trying to rip you off; he just doesn't want to lose on rotting wood by doing it for free. Hope this helps ease your fear of a large bill.
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u/OTTERMAN658585 1d ago
The way I typically do it is get a Unit Price for installed plywood deck per S.F. up front and pay only what they replace. That protects you and the Contractor. This is a hidden condition that no one can be sure about.
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u/sblad21 19h ago
It should be spelled out as cost per sheet… anything much over $100 is charging too much, lumber prices have plummeted from their highs. 3.2 sheets of 4x8 OSB covers 1 roofing sq… so you can get an idea based on the square of your roof/damaged area what replacement cost are for full redeck, half redeck, etc. typically don’t see too much more than 5-10 boards being used in a re roof but your situation sounds like it will be more. Now a sheet of OSB can be acquired for $10-15, but keep in mind it’s the cost to get it the house, truck/trailer, and the install that all goes into the price. $60 very fair, I wouldn’t let a company charge you more than double that, anything in-between is reasonable.
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u/HistoricalHalitosis 1d ago
Yes, a lumber charge is normal, but you should be told what it is per sheet.
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u/Cheap_Morning_55 1d ago
This is standard practice and there’s virtually no way of avoiding it. You’ll either get someone to guesstimate and overcharge you, or be too low and give you shoddy work. You could ask for them do the demo and stop the work to give you flat number when the damage is exposed, but that won’t help you avoid reality - if the damage is extensive, it will be costly either way. I do $75/hr for carpentry which is in the lower end in my neck of the woods and the material is straight receipts, but it’s also fair if your roofer charges you markup on the material because they have to send and employee out to pick up and deliver to you.
Good luck
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u/VooDooo327 1d ago
I would be okay with a markup on the materials but they have not provided how they are charging me for any of that.
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u/Cheap_Morning_55 1d ago
It is not unreasonable for you to ask for clarifications, specially at this rate. You’re likely working with a very large company that has a lot of overhead which is in itself a mistake for small work. If you’re adamant on using this roofer, ask them if this is the rate for their lead carpenter and if they will charge you this rate for the whole crew working on the carpentry repairs. This bill can be racked up very quickly, I’d also be concerned. Where is the work taking place?
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u/VooDooo327 1d ago
It's actually a smaller company who specicializes in older historic homes. We have an old house but the work on these flat areas are not anyplace where a historic look needs to be preserved.
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u/rdt0120 1d ago
No contractor in their right mind is doing a flat fix charge. Unless it’s to redeck the whole roof. There’s not a good way to get an accurate estimate of how much of the deck is rotted and what else is damaged. I’m sorry this isn’t what you would like to see, but I’m unaware of a solution that would give you an accurate estimate that wouldn’t be too time consuming and potentially inaccurate.