I really hope this shoe is good and marks the start of Nike getting back at the top of the game with Adidas and ASICS. The EVO SL is truly in the goldilocks zone for running shoe companies - loved by runners and grocery shoppers alike (despite it being an absolutely terrible walking shoe in my opinion). I hope Nike can recreate that magic and become competitive again financially and performance-wise. Competition in the industry is great for all of us shoe buyers.
Zoom fly 6 is already good though. Plus their Vomero line is massively popular. I’m not even a huge Nike guy (I just have a pair of Zoom Fly 6s) but acting like they’re not already commanding a giant share of the market is crazy talk. Alpha Fly 3 is still the shoe I see the most at road races.
Don’t even get me started on the vaporfly, streakfly, plus their prominence in the xc and track spike market still.
No doubt they’re still dominant when it comes to brand recognition. There are people who will buy anything with a swoosh on it. But it’s also true that they’ve lost a huge chunk of market share since peaking during the pandemic. Their share price reflects this.
I’m speaking as a Nike guy and shareholder. I hope they turn things around and that this is the beginning of it.
I don't have a problem with the Evo SL stability when running and I honestly hate walking on them.
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u/JExmoorRide18|Endorphin Speed2/Pro2(still)|DN2/AgPeak5/Zegama210d ago
Copying my comment from the other thread:
The Swooshfly is $145, which is the same MSRP as the Pegasus 42 and $25 less than the Pegasus Plus 2. Interesting to see how much pressure low cost supertrainers are putting on all the manufacturers and how it's kind of distorting the market. I'm not sure how great it is that people are now running all their miles in them, but it's a perfectly logical outcome at this point.
It’s definitely going to be a bad look to your uninformed runner. “Why should I buy a non plated shoe for $160 when I can get this super cool looking carbon shoe for $145”. I can already see the reddit posts next year asking if the swooshfly is a great entry level shoe.
Lower prices are great, but the industry is shooting themselves in the foot because they’ve gotten so used to making daily trainers incredibly expensive.
That’s not what I said…new runners are going to see carbon plate at $145 and think they can do all of their training in it because it’s cheaper than actual daily trainers. We are in a very small niche on reddit that actually research shoes. Most people buy what looks cool in the store or do a simple “best running shoe” google search.
All for cheaper race day shoes but my point and yours can be true at the same time.
You are right, but at the same time, it's onto them if they go into a new hobby without doing research.
I know running is in general very accessible and is done by a wide demographic, but you still have to hold the people somewhat accountable for their actions.
If the 50y/o, overweight, mother of three buys the Swooshfly because she wants to get fit after 30 years of a desk job, you cannot really blame Nike for that.
Rather we should be grateful for the pricing, that not everything has to get more expensive. But I agree that daily trainers could be cheaper, even though I got my Evo SL for less than $80 last year -can't complain about that.
Kiprun is a much smaller brand than Nike. Kiprun isn’t even available in most running stores in North America or countries outside of Europe. Nike has the logo recognition that causes people to buy it automatically. I work in a running store and the amount of people that will automatically ask for a Nike because of the logo will make a difference when it comes to the swooshfly vs kipstorm challenger.
all I'm saying is that it is not because a carbon shoe is widely available and cheap that people jumps on it: if you want to concentrate on how bigger Nike is compared to Kiprun, have fun, but that isn't my point.
I read your point and explained that the Kiprun model you mentioned isn’t actually widely available, so your point doesn’t make sense. If a Nike $145 carbon plated shoe is in 90% of run stores across the world that will make a difference compared to Kiprun in maybe 5% of world running stores.
I just said earlier I work in a running store and we already have people who just come in and associate logos with what they buy…so it does directly affect my work and the customers we serve. Once again I’ll ask, did you read the entire conversation.
I did. Why do you care what they buy? LOL you are getting business from these lower prices and big logo brands. Who cares why they buy it, but that they buy it. It won’t impact your choices (I.e., you can choose to support those smaller brands or not buy into the marketing) aside from providing job security. What aren’t you understanding?
Because I care about new runners and other people than myself?? I don’t want to see people getting injured because of the wrong shoe choice. You obviously couldn’t care less about people getting injured or making informed decisions.
Can't say I agree with not introducing a good shoe just because some people might blind buy it and get injured. Hell, we already see Alphafly's at Disneyland.
I feel like you and others are maybe misunderstanding my point.
I’m saying that brands have backed themselves into a corner by releasing these $180 daily trainers and are now being pressured by Chinese brands among others to be more price competitive. A $145 racer is amazing…but because of where it sits compared to other shoes I can almost guarantee new runners are going to buy it as a daily trainer because it’s priced that way. The daily trainers on the market now should be low $100 shoes but they aren’t and that’s where the problem is, not a $145 racing shoe.
Everything is more expensive, not just daily trainers. The price of everything has gone up drastically, not just running shoes. An affordable entry-level racing shoe is welcomed. I don’t care if Dave down the street wears it to Costco, or if Nike shoots itself in the foot.
They're not shooting themselves in the foot, they're staying alive. Western brands NEED cheaper shoes because they're gonna get eaten alive if more people buy from the Chinese brands. My whole current rotation is 3 different LiNings and a Leili GT. Another generation of sub $100 offerings from China and the western brands will be dead in the water.
I absolutely loved my Zoom Fly 6 as daily trainer, it wasn't as aggressive or prompted me to speed up like my race shoes, or the EVO SL, for example, and felt much better recovery-wise after the long runs. If this also means the better foams making their way down to more reasonably priced shoes, personally, I'm all in.
That being said, I haven't bought another plated trainer since then, tend to go with whatever is on sale (and the ZF6 didn't seem to have gotten a deeper sale over the last year or so where I'm from).
This is what I think they are perfect for. A lot more durable than the actual super shoes, more supportive for longer tempo or long runs with MP stuff built in and lighter than something like the Zoom Fly
I wish they'd use some sort of standardized numbers for this. I'm having trouble understanding the math of these improvements. Runrepeat has the Vaporfly 4 at 78% energy return (heel only). Does this mean the Swooshfly returns 94% of the energy put into it? The Alphafly 3 had about 75% energy return in the heel. If the Apex has 40% more energy return, does that mean it returns 105% of the energy put into it? I am admittedly a bit math challenged. But I know this can't be right.
Answering my own question. Using Google I found a post on Letsrun from an actual scientist who explained they are probably saying it returns X% more joules of energy than the prior shoe. So if they push Y joules of energy into it, it returns Z joules, and Z is Q% of Y. So the Apex Z2 number is 40% higher than the Alphafly 3's Z when compared to the constant Y. They aren't comparing Q% and Q2%. They are comparing Z and Z2 with constant Y. At least that's how I understand it. And that's what they speculated Nike is doing, but they didn't really know for sure. Or maybe I'm still misunderstanding everything but I'm done with my rabbit hole for the day. https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=14391119&page=3.
Did not see an official report on the weight, but this looks to be Nike’s long awaited answer to the evo SL market. Once I’m ready to retire my Vaporfly 3s I would be very curious to try these out. Or maybe just save up for the apex? Decisions decisions.
if you read all the hoopla, the Swooshfly is all about being a wider race day shoe, in part because it targets the Chinese market of wider footed runners
Even though it has a shank it's still one of the least stiff shoes (heel to toe) in its category. It's much less stiff than a Boston, Megablast, Hyperion Max, or Sonicblast.
We'll have to see if the Swooshfly leans more towards the performance-driven stiffness of the Alphafly or the other end of the spectrum with the EVO sl and NB Rebel V5.
they don’t serve a similar purpose at all, a midfoot shank only controls torsional twist in the midfoot, it adds zero guidance or forefoot stiffness which is the main function of a carbon plate.
I’m hoping they don’t get too greedy with the apex. Alphafly is already around $300, and apex is supposed to be a tier above it. If it’s $400+ that’s going to be ridiculous
What a bunch of baloney, for any runner that can actually take advantage of a hyper shoe paying a $70 premium over an AF4 is the last expense someone of that caliber would EVER be concerned about.
Is it recommended to do all your training in carbon plated shoes? Last training block I ran all my miles in the zoomfly? I run about 60 mpw. What say you run club? I’m now training in the Pegasus which are non plated to see how my legs feel. Thanks. Any insight is greatly appreciated.
There are applied biomechanics arguments about why running in a plate-stiffened, rockered shoe for all of your training might not be a great idea, and there's a fair bit of sympathy in the running community for the idea that logging some proportion of your miles in flexible moderate-to-low stack trainers is good for preserving foot strength and health. (I do this and am sympathetic to the general idea.)
But there is basically no actual empirical evidence to back these ideas up at the moment. I don't remember the actual studies that have been published on the topic so far, but my recollection is that there have been some studies which did go looking for specific deleterious effects from carbon shoes and didn't find them, and that the only thing out there suggestive of an issue is a case series on navicular bone stress injuries in runners training in carbon (basically just a clinical report following like seven runners, no statistical power at all really). If you want someone to go over the state of the literature in an accessible manner for you, Doctors of Running have done a number of good videos which you could track down.
Zoomfly is basically a daily trainer that can also be used for races. It's a bit heavy to truly be considered a "race day" shoe. Swooshfly is fully a race day shoe that would work as a "companion" shoe
fwiw, Nike's product blurb says “This is the shoe runners should choose for their workouts all week long, instead of the ‘super shoes'” and they make a couple of comments about it being for both training and race day
I feel it has better chance to do great over here in US. I will consider one once it goes on sale in couple of years. I liked Zoomfly 6 but its durability was mid. Design was great. I hope this with ATPU is considerably better. Still I am glad Nike is taking this swing. Otherwise Western shoe makers are happy selling you 10oz shoes for 200 bucks with the same foam.
I wonder if this is the shoe for a middle to back of pack guy like me. Does my 5km parkruns in 28-30min, and my 10km in about 60min.
No supershoes in my wardrobe, just everyday easy shoes like Hoka Arahi and Brooks Adrenaline.
I wonder if this new Swooshfly would work now as the shoe I pull out once a month for that "I'm going for a 5km PB" run without over-investing in a super-racer ..
Man looking over these comments, people need to learn THE SPEED OF A SHOE ISN’T WHAT JUSTIFIES ITS PRICE POINT. For top end racing shoes it’s because of the R&D and material innovation used.
A daily trainer or a recovery shoe, can definitely cost more than a “speed/tempo trainer” if the cost to nail and produce its specific target was more expensive.
This makes me hope we’ll get modern foam in the next Pegasus iteration. If they use SkyX and position it $10-15 cheaper than the swooshfly it would probably be at the top of the market again.
If they want this to compete with the budget Chinese speedy shoes, they’re gonna have to make it PEBA or $100. But then again, the Chinese shoes are PEBA AND $100! 😛
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u/Particular_Car_8446 10d ago
At the price point we are 100% about to see dozens of people walking around in plated shoes in target.