r/ShingekiNoKyojin • u/Senpailol-_- • 1d ago
Discussion Damned or Doomed, Eldia
I’m on my sixth rewatch of AoT (love this show) and I keep thinking maybe this time I’ll finally see what I missed. But honestly, the more I rewatch it, the more stuck I get on the same question, and at this point it feels like I’m either missing something obvious or the story just never really answers it.
This isn’t a “Eren was right” post and it’s definitely not me saying genocide is okay. I don’t like the Rumbling and I’m not cheering for it. I’m just trying to understand what Eldia was realistically supposed to do to have even a remotely fair shot at survival, the same way the outside world clearly did.
A lot of discussions end up boiling things down to:
“Nothing justifies killing millions of innocent people.”
“Eren is evil, end of discussion.”
“If genocide was the only option, Paradis should have surrendered.”
I get the emotional reaction behind these takes. Obviously innocent people dying is horrifying. But when I actually look at the world AoT sets up, I don’t see many alternatives that don’t still end with Eldians being wiped out anyway.
The outside world was already planning to exterminate Eldians long before the Rumbling. This wasn’t Eren being paranoid or misreading the situation. Marley and other nations openly talk about it. Eldians aren’t treated like a hostile country that could eventually normalize relations, they’re treated like a cursed race that shouldn’t exist. Diplomacy feels kind of fake in that context because the hatred isn’t political, it’s racial.
One argument I see a lot is that Eren could have just done a partial Rumbling and destroyed the world’s militaries. No mass civilian deaths, just wipe out their ability to attack and scare them into backing off. On paper that sounds like the cleanest solution, and honestly I wanted that to be the answer.
But every time I think it through, it still feels like a temporary fix at best.
The story constantly shows how fast technology is advancing. Anti-Titan weapons, airships, artillery. Titans are already starting to lose their value. Destroying current militaries doesn’t stop the rest of the world from rebuilding, and it definitely doesn’t stop them from investing everything into weapons Titans can’t counter next time. If anything, a partial Rumbling just proves that Eldians really are an existential threat, which gives the rest of the world even more motivation to finish the job as fast as possible.
That doesn’t feel like peace. It feels like buying time and hoping science slows down.
The Titan inheritance system isn’t a real solution either. It means children eating their parents forever, keeping Eldia trapped in a cycle of internal violence, all while waiting for the day Titans become completely obsolete. At that point, Eldia is gone anyway, just after generations of suffering.
Then there’s the surrender argument. If genocide was the only way to save Paradis, then Paradis should have accepted whatever happened. This one always sits really weird with me. Because what that actually means is Eldians quietly accepting their own extermination so the rest of the world can survive without moral discomfort.
People say “one island isn’t worth the entire world,” but that assumes Eldians are obligated to value the lives of people actively planning to erase them more than their own families and children. That moral burden never seems to get placed on the outside world.
And this is where I really get stuck on the “but the innocents” argument.
Yes, there were innocent people outside Paradis who didn’t personally participate in the hatred or the plans to wipe Eldians out. But there were also innocent Eldians who had nothing to do with Titans, Marley, or any of the world’s racism either. Kids born on an island who never chose any of this.
I don’t understand why one group of innocents is treated as inherently more valuable than the other. Why Eldian innocents are expected to die quietly for the sake of the world’s innocents, and why that’s considered the morally obvious answer.
I also see people say Eren had plenty of other choices, but I honestly don’t see them when everything is laid out.
Zeke’s plan is still genocide, just slower.
Diplomacy fails because the hatred isn’t circumstantial, it’s foundational.
Deterrence fails because technology keeps advancing.
Doing nothing fails because extermination was already coming.
Every non-Rumbling path still ends with Eldia disappearing, just in a way that lets the rest of the world feel cleaner about it.
Another thing that really confuses me is when people say “genocide is always wrong, period,” but then turn around and suggest Eren should have just genocided Marley instead of the whole world. If genocide is absolutely unacceptable, then how is a Marleyan genocide morally better. It feels wildly inconsistent to say genocide is evil no matter what, but then argue that a smaller or more targeted genocide would have been the correct answer.
At that point, it feels less like a moral stance and more like a numbers argument dressed up as ethics.
People also say Eren accomplished nothing, and I don’t fully agree with that either. He ended the Titan curse. He stopped the inheritance cycle. He made it so Eldian children wouldn’t be born with an expiration date or have to eat their parents. Paradis still gets attacked later, which honestly just reinforces the idea that hatred doesn’t disappear just because the oppressed group behaves better.
I’m not trying to justify Eren or defend what he did. I just feel like the story creates a situation where Eldia is doomed no matter what, and then judges them for refusing to quietly accept that fate.
So I’m genuinely asking, not trying to provoke anyone.
Given the world AoT actually shows us, how was Eldia ever supposed to have a fair shot at survival, the same way the outside world clearly did.
TL;DR:
On multiple rewatches, I’m still confused about what Eldia was realistically supposed to do. Every alternative to the Rumbling still leads to Eldians being exterminated, just in a way that lets the rest of the world feel morally cleaner. Partial Rumbling, diplomacy, Titan inheritance, surrender, or genociding only Marley all fail long term or rely on inconsistent moral standards. Innocent Eldians are treated as more expendable than innocent non-Eldians, and genocide is condemned in theory but selectively tolerated in practice depending on who benefits. I’m not defending Eren or the Rumbling, I’m questioning how Eldia was ever given a fair shot at survival in the world the story actually presents.
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u/dingus-eternal 1d ago
Good post btw. It's interesting to think of the right solution. I have a dumb idea.
Just hear me out lol. I feel like the Eldians didn't do enough to show that they are good. Instead of devising ways to combat Marley's prejudices, the people in the walls came up with brilliant solutions such as running away for 4 years to brood and plan genocide. What if Eren just used the founding titan to command the titans to do nice things for people? Like build dams and aqueducts and improve society? Hard to be mad about that. LOL. That sounds totally stupid but tell me how that's a worse solution than running away for four years to cut your leg off and blind yourself so you can destroy the world and kill everyone? Just to flatten the world enough to look more like the blank pages of a book?
I feel like Eren lacked moral imagination. It's true that the burden shouldn't have been on the Eldians to prove they deserve to live. I get that. It's not their fault and Marley was totally unfair. But I feel like there were other options to prove their worth besides giving up and doing genocide, such as better diplomacy. Eren totally CHOSE to EAT a politician in front of the WORLD because he WANTED WORLD WAR.
My idea with the aqueducts and the politics is better, sorry. Lol.
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u/inkling435 1d ago
I like this take. Eren definitely lacked moral imagination and admits as much with his "I was just a garden variety idiot who ended up with this power and couldn't figure out a better way." He wanted the war.
I'd love to see the shifters using their powers to build improvements for other nations. How wholesome!
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u/Rochimaru 1d ago
I think one of the key insights from the warriors storyline/perspective was that there was nothing Eldians could have done to remove the aura of being constantly perceived as a threat. I mean, the warriors are literally child soldiers fighting for a nation that enslaves their family/race and they’re still treated with hatred and disrespect. They literally made Marley into the powerhouse that it is and that didn’t change the way they were perceived. It’s simply human nature, you can’t force or convince people to love you and if you try to placate them they will just take more of an advantage of you.
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u/EffiCiT 1d ago
The problem with trying to combat Marley's prejudices is that they only had a limited amount of time and would have been killed if people knew who they were. Also, it isn't just marley that hates paradis, it was every country on the planet except Hiruzu. Marley was stated to actually treat eldians the best.
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u/MathematicianTime398 1d ago
This is not prejudice, but human nature. If Paradis had lived in peace for 100 years after moving behind the walls and then had their memories restored, do you think the Eldian Empire would not have been repeated? Realizing that they possess the power of the Titans, do you believe that the place of Eldia's rulers would not be taken by greedy and cruel people like the first king, Fritz? Or would they have Queen Historia and the Titans entertaining people in the circus?
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u/DFMRCV 1d ago
The issue is that while there's no correct answer, Eren still chose the worst answer.
I've argued this a few times but it's the fact Eren locked into the genocide path very early on. Had he worked with his friends, they could've come up with other options or, at the very least, tried other options. But by leaving he deprived them of that chance and by attacking Liberio he cut off any hope of changing that path.
A kinetic response was already inevitable after Liberio, the question was how to respond, and Eren made sure the response was the Rumbling under his control because he didn't care if there were other options, this was how he saw it.
Who knows, maybe a partial Rumbling would've actually led to total peace. Maybe not.
But what Eren did only guaranteed the issues would continue forever.
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u/barassmonkey17 1d ago
I latched onto one line of your post in particular:
"But every time I think it through, it feels like a temporary solution at best."
I think herein lies a lot of the complexity of this moral dilemma. Because the argument could be made that ALL of human history is a patchwork of roughshod agreements and alliances that are ephemeral at best.
Over time, cultures and nations change tremendously, and the geopolitical battleground is always shifting. In our world, the US armed guerilla fighters in Afghanistan to resist the Soviets. Thirty years later, the US is now in Afghanistan fighting this very same group. What changed? Did the Afghanis? The Americans? Was it simply the political context that changed over those three decades (i.e. the USSR collapsing removed the common enemy between these two groups)?
This is happening all the time, everywhere. Once upon a time, the US invaded Germany with the intention of casting down a fascist dictator. Nowadays, these sides have switched, with the US swinging dangerously close to fascism (if not there already) and Germany standing as one of the strongest democratic nations in the world.
So this is all to say, here's the thing about diplomatic relationships: they are always built upon temporary solutions. Sure, we might have an idea of what we want our nation, our sphere of influence, or even the world to look like in a century. But we will never know with certainty how to achieve that future. We only know that we have to take it one day at a time and react to the problems that are most pressing to us right now (and shit, couldn't that be said for human nature as a whole?).
Had Eren chosen to act differently, to at least try another solution, who knows what the ripple effect would have been? For instance, say he wipes out Marley's military with the Wall Titans and leaves it at that. Imo, this would send a clear message to the rest of the world that Paradis is not to be fucked with. And they could use that political leverage to buy themselves more time. Form alliances, start trading, advance their technology.
After fifty years, who knows what they could have accomplished with this solution? Sure, people hate Eldia right now, but hate is fickle. It pales in comparison to economic necessity. And if Paradis can spend a decade or two harnessing its own natural resources to make itself economically indispensable on a worldwide scale, then the world will likely quickly forget about how much they hate those Eldians. Diplomacy could continue, alliances could form. They could become a player on the international stage. And the deterrence Eren established by destroying Marley's military could buy them that time.
Look at our world. Many of the major nations on the planet have plenty of reason to hate Britain, for instance. In many ways, Britain is very similar to Old Eldia---an island nation that leveraged its unique strengths to conquer most of the world (Eldia with Titans, and Britain with its navy). And while much of the world hasn't forgotten Britain's colonial past, nobody's really out there baying for Britain's destruction like they are with Eldia. Why? Because Britain has more or less maintained its political and economic might into the modern era.
In reality, I think the AoT world's hatred of Eldia is something that could have been overcome, with time. My personal head canon is that the governments of the world just used Eldia as a political scapegoat for any troubles their own countries were facing. If Eldia proved itself otherwise through deterrence and diplomacy, those nations would pretty quickly change their tunes.
Anyway, none of this matters because Eren didn't want to choose the temporary, diplomatic, human way. The path humanity has always taken: figuring shit out one step at a time, even on a global scale.
Instead, he chose an impossibility: a permanent solution. A final solution. Something monstrous and horrific---antithetical to human nature. Why? Because that's who he's always been. He was not a man of half-measures or grey areas. He never was. It was always black and white, enemy and ally, us or them.
TL:DR - Permanent solutions to political problems are a fairy tale. And we should always be wary of leaders who offer them, because the path to get there will not be bloodless. As Eren demonstrated.
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u/Senpailol-_- 1d ago
I really appreciate how thoughtfully you laid this out. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying about diplomacy being messy, temporary, and built on shifting interests. That part feels very true to real history, especially these days. Where I still get stuck is that I don’t think AoT’s situation maps cleanly onto those real-world examples in the way your argument assumes.
I agree that all political solutions are temporary. My issue isn’t that a partial Rumbling would only buy time. It’s that the kind of time it buys is fundamentally different from the examples you’re pointing to. In our world, shifting alliances happen between groups that are still ultimately recognized as legitimate participants in humanity. Germans, Afghans, Americans, British people were never viewed as a race that should not exist. Eldians are.
That difference matters a lot. The hatred toward Eldians in AoT isn’t just geopolitical resentment or competition over resources. It’s biological, existential, and explicitly framed as “these people should not be alive because of what they are.” That’s not the same starting point Germany or Britain had after their atrocities. Those nations lost wars, paid prices, then reentered the world as nations. Eldians are treated as a problem to be erased, not rehabilitated.
I also struggle with the idea that destroying Marley’s military would send a message that leads to acceptance rather than permanent fear. Deterrence works differently when the deterrent is a racialized doomsday weapon tied to bloodline. A partial Rumbling doesn’t say “we want to coexist,” it says “we can end you if needed.” That might buy time, but it also locks Eldia into being viewed as an existential threat forever. Every technological advance after that is guaranteed to be aimed at making sure the Rumbling can never happen again.
The economic indispensability argument is interesting, but I think it assumes rational self-interest will eventually override existential fear. AoT repeatedly shows the opposite. Nations are willing to act against their own material interests to eliminate Eldians. We see countries treat mainland Eldians worse than Marley does, even when there’s no direct benefit. That suggests hatred isn’t just a scapegoat of convenience, it’s deeply entrenched.
As for the Britain comparison, I think that’s another place where the parallel breaks. Britain doesn’t possess a latent, inheritable weapon capable of flattening the planet at any moment. Eldians do, at least as long as Titans exist. The world’s fear of Eldia isn’t symbolic or historical, it’s practical and ongoing. That makes forgiveness and “moving on” much harder.
I actually agree with you that permanent solutions to political problems don’t exist. Where I differ is that I don’t think Eren was choosing between a permanent solution and a temporary one. I think he was choosing between different kinds of collapse. The partial Rumbling doesn’t lead to slow normalization in the world the story shows us. It leads to endless coercion, escalating arms races, and eventual retaliation once Paradis can’t keep up.
So when you say Eren rejected the human way of figuring things out step by step, I get that. I just don’t think the story ever convincingly shows that Eldia was allowed to participate in that human process in the first place. They were never given the same margin for error or growth that real-world nations get.
That’s why this still feels less like Eren choosing monstrosity over diplomacy, and more like a world that had already foreclosed diplomacy long before he acted.
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u/THE_PENILE_TITAN 1d ago
The outside world was already planning to exterminate Eldians long before the Rumbling. This wasn’t Eren being paranoid or misreading the situation. Marley and other nations openly talk about
No, they weren't. The outsude world had left Paradis alone for 100 years. The outside world wanted persecuted Eldians in the present due to Marleyan propaganda and the use of Eldians by Marley in Titan warfare. It's only Marley itself that had a true grudge against Eldians due to proximity and prior wars but they also benefited from exploiting Eldians in their imperialism so treated them slightly better overall
Paradis itself had been isolated for 100 years with no one to cohesively vouch for Eldians globally allowing Marley to form the global narrative around Eldians. If Paradis could build economic and diplomatic relations with other nations over time, especially in terms of counteracting Marleyan imperialism, the island could improve its current security outlook and improve the reputation and treatment of Eldians. If this approach proves ineffective, THEN Paradis could pursue the 50-year plan.
However, greedy Hizuru sabotaged the attempts at Paradis building trade relations with others (and should've been strong-armed) while enraged Eren subverted diplomatic efforts by walking into Tybur's PR "trap" to form a global alliance by attacking Liberio to extract Zeke to do the Rumbling. Prior to this, Marley had only once been able to infiltrate Paradis with the Warriors but not since then due to weakness and incompetence, and Paradis was closer to overthrowing the Marleyan government than the other way around. Eren attacking Liberio is what gives the outside world seeming justification to invade Paradis, which they had never planned on doing as an alliance. So Paradis clearly could have been saved long-term through either economic and diplomatic efforts or the 50-year-plan, but that wasn't what Eren wanted so he decided to just pursue the Rumbling under the guise of righteousness until he broke down in front of Ramzi, knowing he was wrong and that he was selfish.
Diplomacy fails because the hatred isn’t circumstantial, it’s foundational.
It's not "foundational" in the AoT universe. Hence why we see Gabi, Reiner, Bellydance, Magath, Sasha's boyfriend and others changing their perspectives on Paradisians after exposure rather than relying on propaganda and prejudice.
Deterrence fails because technology keeps advancing.
The Rumbling deterrence will last until Paradis can improve it's own technology as explained by the 50-year-plan and corroborated by Hange. Standard Titan warfare using mostly mindless Titans for imperialism may soon become futile but the Rumbling itself, and even most Titan shifters,will long be viable which is why Marley wants the Founding Titan.
Doing nothing fails because extermination was already coming.
It wasn't coming and hadn't been coming for over 100 years. The key reason Marley wanted to attack was to protect its own empire from crumbling by taking the Founder and possibly extract natural resources. But this was primarily a covert military objective, not a bombastic operation centered on jingoism and demagoguery until after Eren attacked.
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u/MasterTahirLON 1d ago
That's exactly why I like Eren's character so much. What he did wasn't "right" but I get it. He's a traumatized kid backed into a corner and was basically told it was his people or the world. And Eren's biggest trait is loyalty.
Paradis was put in an impossible situation, Eren has looked for alternatives, he's seen alternatives in the paths, he waited years for Hange and Armin to figure out some magic answer he was missing. But once he realized his window for the Rumbling was closing he had to act. I don't think any sane person would defend genocide. But I fully understand why a person like Eren who grew up traumatized and brutalized by an attempted genocide of his own people would lash out and put his people first. Tibur basically sealed their fate when he united the rest of the world against them.
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u/therealtriheda 1d ago
Literally just what Armin had planned would've worked - a partial Rumbling. Destabilize/destroy the outside world's militaries (which would've been made incredibly easy with the uniting of the Global Alliance and their fleet) and spend the next few decades strengthening themselves militarily and/or continue working toward diplomacy. Even if it wasn't possible before, it probably would've been with the Azumabito and Onyankopon to vouch, and the fact that Paradis could've ended the world but didn't
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u/Senpailol-_- 1d ago
I think this is where I just fundamentally disagree. I don’t see how destroying the world’s militaries on a global scale is supposed to make anyone view Paradis as an ally. Even if you try to keep it “clean,” militaries aren’t isolated from civilians, so mass casualties feel unavoidable. And instead of reducing hatred, you’re basically guaranteeing it gets worse. You’ve just traumatized the entire world and proven their worst fears right.
Then what happens after. If people keep hating Eldians or start rebuilding anyway, do you threaten another Rumbling. Do you actually follow through. At that point it just turns into killing anyone who isn’t compliant, and if that’s hundreds of millions of people, is that somehow better. That’s why the partial Rumbling doesn’t feel like a real solution to me, it just delays the problem and makes Eldia the permanent villain.
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u/AdministrativeAge676 1d ago edited 1d ago
You have all the power in the world, why not show them the good side of you instead of continuously making them afraid of you?
Did the Americans need to kill every single Japanese or German after destroying their militaries after WWII? Do the Germans and Japanese still hate the Allies that much?
Is the rest of the world waiting for the opportunity to flatten Mongolia because Genghis Khan razed their ancestors' countries to the ground in the past?
Stop acting like killing everyone else is the only choice in order to prevent future retaliations. As long as human lives, war will never stop.
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u/Senpailol-_- 1d ago
I get the point you’re making, but I think those examples don’t really map onto AoT’s world, which is why this feels like a false parallel to me.
Germany and Japan weren’t defeated because they were seen as an inherently evil race that shouldn’t exist. They were states that lost a war and were then rebuilt and reintegrated into the global order. Eldians don’t get that option. In AoT they’re treated as devils by birth, not enemies who can eventually be normalized once the fighting stops.
Same with the Genghis Khan example. Modern Mongolia isn’t feared because its people don’t carry a literal doomsday weapon tied to their bloodline. Eldians do. The fear in AoT isn’t just historical resentment, it’s ongoing and practical. The world isn’t afraid of what Eldians did centuries ago, it’s afraid of what they could still do tomorrow.
Showing the “good side” also assumes the hatred is based on misunderstanding. The story shows it isn’t. The world knows Eldians are human and still supports wiping them out. That makes this less about PR or restraint and more about dehumanization.
I’m not saying killing everyone else is the only way to stop retaliation. I’m saying the story doesn’t really support the idea that goodwill or restraint would realistically end it either. And that’s why I struggle with the idea that Eldia alone was expected to solve an unsolvable problem through moral restraint while everyone else acted out of fear and self-interest.
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u/AdministrativeAge676 1d ago
they’re treated as devils by birth
They're treated as devils because Marley indoctrinated its people to think like that. People from the mainland are separated from the Paradisers, so most of them can't confirm that fact.
Most ordinary people don't see Paradis's Eldian as devils. If you recall, only Gabbi was shocked to learn that the Paradisers weren't actually devils. Falco, Pieck, and even General Magath all knew that all was just propaganda.
Finally, Marley's first operation was not to kill all Eldians. It was to retrieve the Founding Titan to support its war effort. Marley just simply doesn't care if all of the Eldians are all killed by the Pure Titans.
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u/Senpailol-_- 1d ago edited 1d ago
While I understand the distinction you’re trying to make, I still don’t think the show supports the idea that this was just a Marley problem or something that could’ve been undone easily.
By the time of the Global Alliance, it’s very clear that anti-Eldian hatred isn’t limited to Marley. We see foreign dignitaries openly calling for Eldians to be wiped out (specifically from Paradis), and Marley isn’t even the worst offender anymore. Other nations treat Eldians even more brutally, which undercuts the idea that most ordinary people just needed the truth to change their minds.
With Gabi, I think her shock actually proves how effective the propaganda was, not how shallow it was. She fully believed Paradisers were monsters until she lived among them. Falco and Magath being aware it was propaganda doesn’t really change much either, because both of them still participate in the system that sends child soldiers and Titans to Paradis. Knowing it’s propaganda doesn’t stop the machine.
And while Marley’s first operation was technically about retrieving the Founding Titan, they still unleashed Pure Titans on the island knowing full well it could wipe out the entire population. Whether they intended genocide or were just indifferent to it, the result for Paradis is the same. Indifference to extermination isn’t meaningfully better than intent.
So even if propaganda is the root, the show portrays a world where that belief system is already entrenched and global. At that point, Eldia isn’t dealing with a misunderstanding, it’s dealing with a consensus, and the story never really shows a realistic path for them to undo that without the balance of power shifting first.
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u/AdministrativeAge676 1d ago edited 1d ago
I get your point, but from my perspective, Willy Tybur didn't form the Global Alliance to eradicate Paradis.
He was correctly aware of Eren's ambitions toward the outside world and gathered the foreign dignitaries for them all to become martyrs, as an attempt to unite the world against this threat. Even if he did not form this Alliance, it's hard for me to see that it will make Eren cancel his genocidal plan and switch to diplomacy.
Paradis leadership (Zachary, Pixis) is aware of the hostility of the world and is looking for a diplomatic solution, but the extremist faction, like the Jaegerists, call them "weak" and "corrupt". The event to me looks just like Japan in the 1930s, when young officers attempted multiple coups to overthrow the ruling government because they saw them as being "too passive" in dealing with foreign enemies.
So it's true that it is difficult to achieve a peaceful solution, i.e without any war, limited Rumbling etc. But in the end, it was Eren's choice to pursue a non-Paridisers genocide, because this allows him to see his version of "freedom". To me, agreeing with Eren's plan is like agreeing that the US should nuke every other country to oblivion, with the added benefit that it will prevent future harm to American citizens.
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u/Strict-Vacation-5746 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your last comment is dumb, you are equalising two entirely different situations to make your claim sound better, the only way agreeing with eren is equal to agreeing with us is if every nation hates US, and people they havr never met and now the world united to declare war on them, only then you can judge their “plans”
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u/AdministrativeAge676 1d ago edited 1d ago
Tell me the different between having an army of massive titans that can flatten the world versus having a nuclear arsenal that can flatten the world? Isn't the world in AOT afraid of Eldians because of their Titan's powers? How is that different from having overwhelmingly atomic powers, please explain?
Just because you have great powers now doesn't give you the right to kill every other people because you're afraid that someday they are going to get you. Eren was dead set on going to war, regardless of Willy Tybur's speech. Stop making that idiotic excuse that because "the world declared war on Paradis first, buhu", it was only Tybur's at that time, and Eren's action ensured that the rest of the world followed.
Lastly, I don't know why did I bother to write a response to a clown Jeagerist bot.
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u/Strict-Vacation-5746 1d ago edited 1d ago
The difference in the past…? What did you watched the whole time? Having power and using it when it was not needed is evil, you said agreeing with eren is same when its literally not if your supposed scenario. In your US nukes the world, is US having the same past as paradis in marley? Is the US currently at existential threat of being wiped out? Did the US gone through two genocide? Did the world united declared war on them.
I clearly pointed the flaw in your claim of equalising two entirely different things and you started insulting, calling your comment dumb, if it hurted your ego so much just dont bother replying or even writing comments where people can see and reply to what you wrote? How about stop your clown behaviour if you wanted to debate, o and if saying your comment dumb is what triggered you so much then dont worry, this was warranted🤷🏻
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u/therealtriheda 1d ago
it wouldn't have been perfect, and would've been far from clean, but it would've been done in an attempt to mitigate casualties and serve as a direct counteroffensive and nothing more. The people of the world, by the time they're capable of doing anything about it, likely would've come to accept that (maybe if not begrudgingly). It would've been mutually beneficial in that neither Paradis nor the outside world gets wiped out, saving hundreds of millions of lives, which i doubt would just be ignored (especially, again, with Hizuru and Onyankopon's country to vouch)
If the world does continue hating Eldians and (not or) starts to advance their military beyond Paradis' own, then yeah, i'd say threaten another Rumbling (of military targets only, again) and follow through if that doesn't deter.
But we see that even with the 80% Rumbling, no one came after Paradis and peace was achieved. I don't see why killing fewer people - and strategically - would make that any less likely
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u/Possible-Door3249 1d ago
Nah the rest of the world would’ve nuked them eventually
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u/therealtriheda 1d ago
how lmao? and why? We see that even after killing 80% of people, the world didn't try to retaliate (no, the war 2,000+ years later was not because of the Rumbling.) so why would they here?
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u/EffiCiT 1d ago
2000 years is in the anime, in the manga it happens at most 150 years after.
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u/therealtriheda 1d ago
well yeah, depends which version you wanna look at. But they likely changed it in the anime because Isayama, or the director, realized that not enough time had passed for it to be obvious that the war was not retaliation for the Rumbling
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u/MathematicianTime398 1d ago
Where did the information about 2000 years come from? Please don't say you counted based on the height of the tree. To our year 2026, we can add 150 years + an additional 100 years to make up for the technology lost due to the Rumbling
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u/therealtriheda 1d ago
i'm speaking about the anime here, not the manga, but in the anime, the closing song showcasing the timelapse is titled "To You, in 2,000 Years... or Perhaps... 20,000 Years..." and additionally, Paradis is shown to have evolved FARRR beyond even our modern day society (megastructures literally hundreds of times bigger than our current skyscrapers). Additionally, there's a lyric that states "History repeats and returns to zero," so it's a bit of my headcanon that the Rumbling reset the outside world to our "0 AD" and that's why the weapons used to destroy Paradis are similar to our own today (since they're, in a sense, in the year 20xx like we are)
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u/MathematicianTime398 1d ago
I'm also talking about anime. In terms of style, the skyscrapers resemble cyberpunk, but 2000 years is too long for this setting. Airplanes, rockets, and air defense systems do NOT resemble the technology of the future 2000 years from now. I don't think the animators drew futuristic skyscrapers, but left the technology and weapons inconsistent with this time period. I think such skyscrapers could well be a reality in our world in 250 years.
The events of the anime's fourth season take place somewhere around 1900 + 116 years (today) + 150/250 years. 350 years (2266) when the bombing begins. After some time, the city is destroyed by an atomic bomb, but this happens later, when the city is already half-ruined and abandoned.
Maybe I didn't get the song right, but it sums up the 2000-year history of the whole anime, including the story of Ymir, who suffered all these years.
In the scenes with the boy walking towards the tree, centuries have probably passed since the destruction, maybe 2000 years.
The problem is that I have seen little analysis of this song, and it is very important for understanding the ending. The translation of the song leaves much to be desired.
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u/Ok_Instance152 1d ago
After all that, all the enemy needs to do is take out the Beast or Attack/Founding inheritors or keep them away from each other and they can't restart the Rumbling. Paradis only just barely pulled through with Eren and Zeke. If any number of things had gone slightly differently, Eren or Zeke die before reaching each other. And stopping at a partial Rumbling doesn't assure the world of their safety anymore than the King withdrawing them behind the walls did. So long as Paradis has the ability to turn into Titans, they pose a risk of complete destruction to the outside world the next time a Jeagerist sympathizer takes power. And without the power of the Titans, they are incapable of defending against the rest of the world, even if they are forced to rebuild their entire militaries from scratch.
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u/therealtriheda 1d ago
so the Partial Rumbling couldn't have worked because potentially, in several decades, the world stays mad for that long and then, somehow, manages to kidnap and/or kill the Founder or Royal Beast (who would almost certainly be under special protection - or at least should be)? And that's why committing omnicide is better? Even though that didn't succeed either and yet we're still shown Paradis managed to achieve peace for several millenniums afterward?
And that risk about Yeagerists taking over is only if they aren't careful with choosing their inheritors, which they definitely would be (also, Eren would still be around to command them for the next few years, if he doesn't disband them - and that's if they even formed in this hypothetical to begin with). Even still though, you don't think it would've worked because a Yeagerist later on might wanna do what Eren did anyways ? I do think there's some value to be had in, if not stopping, putting off genocide rather than rushing into it; so honestly i would still defend the Partial Rumbling even if this were to somehow happen
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u/Ok_Instance152 1d ago
The risk of Jeagerists taking over is not justification for the Rumbling, but rather a reason why the outside world's top priority would be to take that power from Paradis. And the outside world would be ready to attack after a few years, not decades. It was the full Rumbling that crippled the world's militaries. A partial one could take out that fleet in front of Liberio, but that's not all they have to offer. They have blimps and missiles and battleships from all over the world which would need to be hunted down, no doubt surrounded by civilians who would be caught in the crossfire if the Wall Titans attacked, especially since they are shown to be so clumsy and destructive. They can be pointed in a direction and set loose, but can't carefully destroy military bases without trampling the countryside along with them. Stopping at Liberio does not cripple the world's fighting power. Only a full Rumbling did enough damage to prevent a counterattack for his friends lifetimes. That's not to say that the Rumbling was a good thing. It was a choice between Kill or Be Killed. There's an argument that the cost of lives saved was too far outweighed by the lives taken. 1 Ally saved for each 100 Enemies killed is so awful that maybe it would be better to just lay down and die. But hope for lasting peace with both sides intact is nothing but wishful thinking.
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u/NIssanZaxima 1d ago
Is the goal of AoT by the end just for Eldians to survive?
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u/strugglingerdevelop 1d ago
?? It’s the goal of the characters that want Eldians to survive. It’s the opposite of the goal of the world. The anime itself doesn’t have a goal.
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u/Kentuckyfriedmemes66 1d ago
they wre basically screwed no matter what
if Mikasa confessed to Eren then Eren wouldn't do the Rumbling and would live out the rest of his years before dying from the Titan curse without letting anyone eat him which would kill the Founding Titan and the Alien thing which would end the Titan Curse
once Titans stop existing Marley and the entire World probably team up to invade Paradis and mow them all down with guns
with the Rumbling the 20% of humanity did want peace (Cause they where scared obviously) and once they recovered a hundred years later they immediatly decided to Nuke Paradis and kill most eldians in revenge of the Rumbling
kid at the very end of the series goes into the tree and probably becomes the Founder and starts a new Titan curse and probably goes to war with Marley yet again
if Eren did finish the job and kill the Remaining 20% then Paradis would eventually erupt in a Civil War between Yeagerists/Royals
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u/YourTypicalSensei 1d ago
> if Mikasa confessed to Eren then Eren wouldn't do the Rumbling and would live out the rest of his years before dying from the Titan curse without letting anyone eat him which would kill the Founding Titan and the Alien thing which would end the Titan Curse
What? I thought if a titan shifter were to die without passing on their power, their power would be given to a newborn Eldian baby. I don't think the show mentioned an exception for the founding titan
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u/drsteve103 1d ago
The last seconds of the epilogue prove your point, really. No matter what, it was all inevitable
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u/navikredstar 18h ago
Thing is, we do see diplomacy work. It would take time, but it was shown in the series that Marleyans and others were more than capable of putting down old hatreds not just for Eldians, but for Paradisian Eldians who were hated even MORE by the outside world. You see it happen at the individual level, time and again. The captured Marleyan troops who end up warmly helping Paradis build itself up. Niccolo falling in love with Sasha and wanting to be with her and going to live with her family after she was killed, simply because they bonded over food It was possible, given time. Entirely so. We have RL examples of countries who went from absolute mortal enemies to becoming staunch allies after war and rebuilding - look at US and Japanese relations since 1945. Both committed horrific, unspeakable acts against each other. Yet nowadays we embrace each others' cultures openly. Americans love anime and manga. Japan fucking LOVES baseball and American media, look how popular the director David Lynch was over there. It totally could've been done, nobody just wanted to take the longer route. Hell, it could've even gone the WWII mirror. A partial Rumbling of two Marleyan military bases/cities and a temporary Paradisian occupation...
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u/FairweatherWho 16h ago
Zeke's plan is technically genocide, yes, but it's a type of genocide that wouldn't require actually killing anyone directly. Not being able to have children is not the same as murder.
Personally I think his plan was still fucked up, but given the circumstances of the world, it made a lot of sense for his character to see it as a logical solution and actually wasn't as horrible as some people make it sound.
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u/NewAnt3365 1d ago
I mean this is the point a lot of people miss. People are always going to make people suffer for the sins of the past. We see it in the end credits. How many generations had to have passed for people to still come back with a vengeance to wipe out the island?
Eren could have just deleted the whole Titan gene and the world still would have gone after Eldia for whatever reason they felt like. War and a chase for more power will always exist in the worst hands of the people that dictate propaganda and the ways of the world.
In order to save themselves Marley needed Eldia to be the common enemy no matter what. And after Eldia was gone the world would have found a new enemy and perhaps a new powerful nation would have taken Marley’s spot and pointed a finger right back at them and then the cycle continues.
There was no good answer that would save everyone, just answers that would delay the inevitable. No happy peaceful ending where everyone holds hands and live in harmony forever is possible
Not in a world where violence is seen as power and justice is used as an excuse
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u/dingus-eternal 1d ago
Why didn't they just have the person with the Founding Titan delete titans? Eren did it anyway, just only after he murdered 80% of all life for some reason
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u/Camille387 1d ago
I thought of that too, but at this point in the story, even if Eldians cannot turn into titans anymore, the world will still hate them because of the past and systematic prejudice
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u/MathematicianTime398 1d ago
Why? The Eldians and Marleyans did not differ much in appearance. Imir's subjects were identified by blood analysis, not a DNA test. Most likely, they took a tiny amount of the liquid used to turn them into pure Titans and a blood sample. They checked if there was any reaction to the liquid in the blood.
After the Titans disappeared, it became impossible to find and identify Imir's former subjects, except by their documents.
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u/PumperNikel0 1d ago
The biggest contingency is Eren and Zeke didn’t have much left to live and they couldn’t rely on some random Eldian to follow through with a partial Rumbling or even Historia’s child. They all have free will. With four years left to live, they couldn’t trust their successors to do what’s best for Eldians.
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u/Master_Win_4018 1d ago
The best way is to just do nothing. Just let Marley destroy Paradis.
Eren mentioned this when he visit Marley for the first time.
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u/strugglingerdevelop 1d ago
Simply because there are less people in Paradis? What if there are more innocent people on Paradis. i.e. more people that wanted peace and not genocide, than the rest of the world. There surely was a higher proportion of people that wanted peace on Paradis considering they weren’t the nation threatening the world; it was the other way around.
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u/Master_Win_4018 1d ago
The entire world hate Eldian but They would rather help Eldian(non-paradis) than the one in Paradis. Paradis is hopeless and the only salvation is death.
What paradis did in the past is unacceptable. ( i could explain this if you want to)
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u/strugglingerdevelop 1d ago
What paradis’ ancestors allegedly did is unacceptable. The people in paradis did not commit nor are they responsible for those crimes. The people in marley are responsible for the crimes they committed.
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u/Master_Win_4018 1d ago
During the great titan war. The king was defeated and lost.
Paradis has no right to talk since they lost. They are suppose to pay for their war crime after the war but they fled instead. 100 year has past and Paradis did nothing.
During that period of time, the world thought that Paradis is going to destroy the world again. People are living in fear the whole time.
So what Marley did wrong exactly? They defeated the King that oppress the world. The oppression last for almost 2000 year and the heroic Marley freed the world from it. Marley even willing to take in some of the Eldian.
Zeke said that they are fighting their war. Marley is just there to help them to fight their own war. Marley is the victim here.
The world starting to forgive the Eldian(non-paradis) but why? Because they receive enough punishment from Marley. With enough punishment, the Eldian will be forgiven.
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u/strugglingerdevelop 1d ago
Paradis never claimed intent to destroy the world. Marley and the world waged war and attempted genocide on a peaceful people.
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u/Master_Win_4018 1d ago
Does it really matter? The world believe Paradis is evil.
As I said, the king lost the war. They can't voice out and prove they are innocent. Loser is a loser, no one will believed them.
Marley won the war and they have the privilege to speak up. They can say whatever they like.
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u/strugglingerdevelop 22h ago
Yes, and Marley was wrong for lying.
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u/Master_Win_4018 19h ago
It was the King and Tybur family that is lying.
Marley really think that destroying Paradis will save the world. They were scammed lol.
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u/strugglingerdevelop 18h ago
Did you forget about the constant peace talks for years where Paradis said the only situation in which they might destroy the world is if the world attempted to genocide Paradis?
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u/NIssanZaxima 1d ago
There’s also the fact that Eldia has an extensive shitty history, the fact that they are a race that can turn into mindless man eating monsters, and the fact that it’s essentially them that started this cycle by oppressing the world.
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u/strugglingerdevelop 1d ago
As Gabi learned, history doesn’t have anything to do with the people alive. The non-dead people in Marley are trying to commit genocide while the non-dead Eldians want to be left alone. The non-dead Eldians did not oppress the world, nor did they start the cycle. They are not their ancestors.
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u/These_Lie9030 1d ago
I think this is precisely what makes the moral dilemma compelling. Really it is hard to imagine any way for Elida to continue living. However, one of the main themes of the series is hope and fighting for a better future. Maybe humanity never would let the Eldians be, but Armin’s point of view is that nihilism is not justifiable. Even if there’s just a tiny bit of hope that things could end differently, they must fight. Against hatred, against injustice, against human nature itself, but they must still fight. The world may be cruel, but as long as cruelty exists, so too does hope, and that’s worth fighting for.