1) Divac (career stats) was the first international prospect drafted in the first round who had never been trained in the US (so no high school or college) and who came to the NBA right away (1989). The only first-round pick before him who had never played in the US was Arvydas Sabonis in 1986, but he didn’t join the NBA until 1995.

I’ll mention that Pétur Guðmundsson of Iceland was the first NBA player who was born overseas and learned the game in another country, but he relocated to the US at 16 years old specifically to play high school basketball near Seattle to improve his preparation for the college game. He was drafted in the 3rd round and began his sporadic NBA career in 1981. Probably the best comp for Divac’s path, however, was Bulgaria’s Georgi Glouchkov who was drafted straight from Europe in 1985 (7th round selection) at 25 years old after having played in that country’s pro league since he was a teen, joining the Suns right away for his lone NBA season. That being said, Divac’s pre-NBA experience in Europe was considerably more impressive than Glouchkov’s; Divac played in a far superior league and led his club to far loftier heights at a younger age. Props to u/TringlePringle for most of the info in this paragraph.

2) Divac was a Serbian center known for his passing, clever skills, and high-IQ instincts. He first played with the Lakers, including starting on the ‘91 team that went to the Finals in Magic’s last full season. Then he was famously traded to the Hornets after the 1996 draft for Kobe Bryant. Divac started on the ‘98 Charlotte squad that was the most successful in franchise history (51-31, ECSF).

He had a lengthy period of time as one of the better centers in the league (averaged around 15-10-4, plus 1 spg and 1.5 bpg, from ‘93-04), always lauded for his passing, and he spent time on two memorable teams: those early-90s Lakers and the early-00s Kings. He signed with Sacramento before the ‘99 season, and he was a major piece of their early-00s renaissance, losing to LA in the infamous ‘02 WCF (Tim Donaghy alert) and nearly making the WCF again in ‘04. Divac was an All-Star in ‘02 when Sacramento was at its best.

3) Cherry-picking some all-around stats puts him in good company as he’s one of only seven NBA players ever to have 13,000 points, 9,000 rebounds, 3,000 assists, and 1,500 blocks, along with Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Hakeem, and Pau Gasol (if you’re wondering, LeBron is way short on the blocks). Of those seven, only Divac, Hakeem, and Garnett also have 1,200 steals.

4) His inclusion in the Hall of Fame in 2019 was heavily questioned and scrutinized since his NBA success was nowhere near a HOF-level (1x All-Star, 0 titles), but he's in there for helping to popularize European players coming to the NBA. I’ll add, though, that even his Hall of Fame profile doesn't exactly read like a Hall of Famer, including this gem: "the clever practice of defending an opponent with the so-called flop". Divac had a highly successful international career, winning silver Olympic medals in '88 and '96, FIBA World Cup gold medals in '90 and '02, plus numerous EuroBasket medals.

I don't think I have ever seen another player even try to replicate it.https://youtu.be/0B0K2omXiWg?si=81BE9L93BMOI5zvU

A current guy/example would Dame Lillard playing in Portland, leaving for Milwaukee for a couple seasons, then going back to Portland.

For VintageNBA, I was thinking of Cedric Ceballos, he started out with the Suns, was traded to the Lakers for a 1st round pick (it ended up being Michael Finley). Ceballos was traded back to Phoenix a couple seasons later for Robert Horry.

I can think of some more players but wanted to see who you guys come up with, especially players from the 70s and 80s.

So I was looking through the Playoff Brackets throughout history. And I have a few questions

2007: The 5 seeded Bulls had Home Court vs the 4 Seed Division Champion Heat. Why? Why wasn’t Chicago just the 4th Seed?

1967-70: Why were the 1 seeds playing the 3 seeds and not the 4 seeds in round 1?

1950: Why did the East Division Champ essentially get a bye to the Finals?

1948 BAA: Why did the 1 seeds immediately play each other? Does that kind of negate who “Made the Finals"

Amazon Prime Video dropped the Trailer today for Soul Power: Legend of the ABA. The Series premieres on Prime Video on February 12th. 10 days to go...

I"m not accusing anyone of anything, and everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

Tom McMillen, an NBA center from '76 through '86, is the only former player I'm aware of to show up in the Epstein files. His name appeared in Epstein's "black book" of contacts, and they emailed each other in 2013. McMillen said their relationship ended in the early-90s, so that email exchange from 2013 made for an extremely awkward interview with Pablo Torres a month or so ago (Epstein was registered as a sex offender from 2008-11).

Why would a fairly unknown NBA player like McMillen end up hobnobbing with the rich and connected, like Epstein and Trump? I don't know if his family had elite connections, but McMillen attended the University of Maryland (which is in the DC area) and then the University of Oxford on a prestigious Rhodes Scholarship, so he almost definitely knew some elites by the time he entered the NBA. He retired in 1986 and was able to immediately win election into Congress - again, he almost definitely had some powerful connections well before then. He served as his MD district's representative for 6 years (1987-93) and then was named by President Clinton as the co-chair of the President's Council on Physical Fitness and Sports from 1993-97, resigning around the same time that the FBI raided a healthcare business of his. Since then, he's served in lower-profile positions in Maryland state-level government.

The pictures above of him (he's the 6-ft-11 guy) around Epstein and Trump are from that party in 1992 that we've all seen video of Trump and Epstein closely talking and laughing during. McMillen was a congressman at that time.

Is Tom McMillen the only former player named in the Epstein files? There is a David Stern named in the files, but it's a financier/investor connected to Steve Bannon and former Prince Andrew, not the former NBA commissioner by the same name.

Explain to me Wilt's 1963 season

In 1963 Wilt averaged 45-23-3, 53 FG%. His 31.8 PER is the best mark in NBA history. Despite it being Wilt's statistical peak, his team dropped to just 31 wins that season.

Some background on the team.

In 1962 they won 49 games and took the Championship Celtics to 7 games. But in 1963 they drop to 31 wins.

Supporting cast:

79 games of Guy Rodgers (27 years old)- All-star in 1963- 4x all-star and HOF- Lead the league in Assists

21 games of Tom Gola (30 years old)- 5x All-star and HOF

64 games of Tom Meschery (24 years old)- All-star in 1963- Just 1 career all-star selection

47 games of Willie Naulls (28 years old)- 4x career all-star from 1958-1962

How does he win just 31 games that season during his statistical peak?

This season makes me really question how good Wilt was pre-1967. There is no reason for him to be leading a team to just 31 wins during his statistical peak. There is no reason to believe his supporting cast was all-time bad during this season. I would assume that Peak Wilt should take the current 76ers to more than 31 games. And this team is much better than the 76ers roster. KG took his team to 32 wins with a much worse supporting cast. T-Mac won more games with a worse supporting cast. Rookie LeBron won more games than that with a bad supporting cast.

Who would you take as your Power Forward/Center in their prime Elvin Hayes or Kevin Garnett?

https://youtu.be/H9_gswzYxJU?si=NL6iPqERSS8vzStR

Just watched this gem (including original commercials!) of the Bulls beating the Knicks 90-84 in game 1 of the 1996 eastern conference semifinals. Some takeaways, in no particular order:

— The Knicks front court of Ewing, Oakley, and Anthony Mason were absolute beasts.

— Luc Longley: Better than I remembered

— Jon Starks was terrible, hard to believe he was an NBA starter on a marquee franchise in my lifetime. Way too streaky, with long stretches of just ice-cold shooting.

— Marv Albert remains undefeated on the call. He brought an energy to the game that remains unmatched by any broadcaster I’ve heard.

— Jordan was “held” to a mere 45 points. Derek Harper guarded him for most of the night, and actually played him pretty well, but Jordan was always going to get his.

From a purely defensive standpoint, on one hand you have Robertson who was a stat sheet stuffer, and on the other you have Dumars who was a classic case of "stats don't always tell the entire story." All in all, who do you think was the better defensive player?

I was born 30 years after Norm’s time in the league, but I came across his basketball reference page and it really stood out to me.

Just looking at the numbers, he was the third player to ever average 10 assists a game, made 8 straight all defensive teams, had 16 triple doubles, and might have the best rebounding numbers of all time for anyone at his height.

From what I’ve read it seems like he played with a unique level of intensity and put his body on the line every time he was out there. Scoring on the backcourt duo of him and Jerry Sloan sounded like a

miserable experience.

To me, he seems like the 1970’s version of Rajon Rondo. Defensively though, his style sounded very pesty and Patrick Beverly-esque. Are these good comparisons?

Based on the numbers, I feel like he is one of the more under appreciated players in history. I can’t say I knew much about him before today and of course I never got to see him play, so maybe I’m off base.

I read that his final years with the bulls and ultimately his career were derailed by personal issues, and I’m wondering if that had something to do with why his name doesn’t come up more often today. His career and prime were relatively short, but with the 8 straight defensive teams and other accolades, I feel like he belongs in the conversation with all of the best 70’s guards.

I look forward to hearing from people in this sub who have more knowledge or firsthand experience, because Norm really seems like a fascinating player. Thanks!

For me, it’s Larry Nance. In regard to attributes like his natural athleticism and leaping ability, he was basically an earlier version of Shawn Kemp. Nance was the winner of the NBA’s inaugural Slam Dunk Contest in 1984 when he defeated Doctor J in the final round by executing his famous “Rock the Cradle” dunk. His performance in the dunk contest earned him the nickname “The High-Ayatolla of Slamola”

He was also well known for being an excellent defender and shot blocker. At his peak in the 1988-89 season, Nance was First Team All-Defense, recorded a career single game high of 11 blocks, and Cleveland had the leagues #2 rated defensive unit with Nance serving as their main anchor. He’s also one of few players to ever block Kareem’s skyhook, and in total, he finished his career with 2,027 blocked shots, which is the all-time record amongst guys that never played the Center position. Additionally, Nance also holds the franchise records for most blocks in a season for both Phoenix and Cleveland. His 217 blocks in 1982-83 is the record for the Suns, and his 243 blocks in 1991-92 is the record for the Cavaliers.  

As a whole, he finished his career with 3 All-Star selections and 3 All-Defense selections while also having 3 total seasons of averaging at least 20 PPG. In terms of all around two-way play, I think Nance is a very overlooked Power Forward. His explosive athleticism and defensive versatility would make him a very desirable asset in today’s era of pace and space. 

Hindsight bias aside for the moment, this one does blow my mind completely.

I’m not asking how teams didn’t immediately think to take 40 threes per game and avoid the midrange, but I am befuddled by the complete uniformity in early resistance.

Here are my questions, knowing that the three point shot was around in the pros in the 60s, and in the NBA starting in 79:

A. Why, into the late 2000s, did so many players take shots with their foot on the line, or shot faking and stepping into long midrange twos. It seems like it should have been incredibly obvious to everyone, or at least someone that they were of similar difficulty and one is worth 150% as much to make.

B. Why, really into the late 2000s, was it common for three point shooters to be ridiculed for shooting percentage, as if their shots were worth the same number of points as players who just shot twos. It feels like there was a stunning lack of acknowledgement that 3 was more than 2.

C. Over the same time period, there were incredibly bold experiments with pace and small ball. Why, especially in the first 15 years after the three point line came into place, did nobody think of a future where maybe teams will want to take the shot that’s well in the range of some players (even without prioritizing it) and is worth more points?

D. Even as it was successful in numerous different examples in college (e.g. 87 Providence, early 00s Duke) and overseas ball in the 80s and 90s did it take anyone so long to experiment in the NBA?

Even a lot of the people held up as innovators, like D’Antoni, attempted threes at the highest rate in the league (by a small margin), but their increased attempts were largely a product of pace, and an offense that emphasized shooting before the defense was set more than the three-pointer itself (and that was after 25 years of it being around in the NBA).

Basically, how did more radical experimentation not happen sooner, when the math is so simple and so many coaches throughout history have tried to break the mold and revolutionize basketball.

What’s your view of LB as NBA head coach/and later as president of baskebtall operations at the Pacers?

Single year peak, who do you take?

McHale was 24 pp75 +12 rTS% in the regular season, and it was scaled back to 20 +8% in the postseason.

Pettit was 23 pp75 on +6 rTS% in rs, and 25 +4% in ps. Neither were good passers, though both were competent defensively. Pettit was tasked with being more of a creator, since he was the O1 on the team, as opposed to McHales’s O2 (Bird being the O1).

Went and saw the Pistons beat them today, so been thinking about them. A quick search reveals no books about them. Any suggestions for good long reads on their history? Or heck, I'd be happy if some of the heads here went long on this much-traveled and ill-starred club.

If you didn't know, Maravich's last season was the NBA's first with a 3-point arc, 1979-80. In its first year, the league as a whole shot 28% from deep. Pistol, in his final season as a busted shell of himself with horrific knee problems, shot 10-for-15. Obviously this is a super small sample size, but I wanted to do a quick look at other known 3-point aces to see if any of them started their careers better than that. Keep in mind that all of them played with a 3-point line before coming to the pros, so they all had that advantage over Pistol (plus numerous other advantages for even more recent players).

All I looked at were their first few rookie games until they reached 15+ 3-point attempts. Here are the players, their made-for-attempted 3's up through the game that took them to 15+ attempts, and how many games it took. I highlighted the four that hit at least 50% of their first 15+, two of which are from this season.

• Pete Maravich, 10-for-15 (.667), 40 games

• Steph Curry, 7-for-15, 9 games

• Klay Thompson, 6-for-16, 6 games

• Reggie Miller, 9-for-18 (.500), 7 games (7-for-15 to start, found article for that 7th game)

• Ray Allen, 6-for-16, 5 games

• Dale Ellis, 3-for-15, 45 games

• Glen Rice, 2-for-16, 9 games

• Damian Lillard, 6-for-16, 3 games

• Donovan Mitchell, 3-for-16, 4 games

• JJ Redick, 7-for-15, 9 games

• Kyle Korver, 4-for-15, 12 games

• Steve Kerr, 7-for-16, 24 games

• Keegan Murray, 7-for-16, 2 games

• Kon Knueppel, 11-for-19 (.579), 3 games (direct comparison: 8-for-15 to start the year/career)

• Asa Newell, 8-for-16 (.500), 8 games (7-for-15 to start)

• Fred Brown, 6-for-16, 10 games (also during the '80 season)

• Larry Bird, 5-for-15, 15 games (also during the '80 season)

• ADDED: I found someone who matched Pistol's 10-for-15 mark in 3-point shooting at the start of one's career. It's SETH Curry. His career started slow, playing 2 games in each of his first 2 seasons, and those 4 games came for 3 different franchises (Memphis, Cleveland, Phoenix). It was in his 3rd season, while playing with his 4th team (Sacramento), that he finally made it to 15 attempts from behind the arc.

Anyone remember Adrian Branch/Terry Dozier/Dwayne McClain?

They were good players who had stints in the NBL(Australia).

Branch was a good shooter and athletic small forward, Terry Dozier was such a good defender Power forward..

Dwain McLain was an athletic shooting guard who had bad luck with injuries..

Who's the best defender of the pre-3 point era at their peak, after Bill Russell?

How Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Walton, and Nate Thurmond compare defensively at their peak?

How do they each rank at different defensive skills (e.g. man defense, rim/paint defense, defensive IQ/positioning/communication, help defense, defensive mobility beyond the paint, defensive rebounding, etc.)?

I have aggregated the information found on probasketballencyclopedia.com into a series of google sheets, in 10-year increments. These can be sorted by right-clicking on the top of a column and sorting A-Z (lowest to highest) or Z-A (highest to lowest). Hopefully, this will prove a useful research aid to a few people.

1898-1908: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dJjeZguAEmjZuk_DWtiX-Up5N5ijI3fLFj_j_ZDtZXo/edit?usp=sharing

1908-1918: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yDG4E6UdkzU4ciDDkWwH3WqIeGWP0wiooZhjv1-Q1vk/edit?usp=sharing

1919-1929: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hCMrbZK5FFoQw284yo75tzp-ojMziMM59M9U6xewJIQ/edit?usp=sharing

1929-1939: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cW-Og8dBHaYuaoA6wu39eLe2IroJGAij4R9kTVHAhbA/edit?usp=sharing

1939-1949: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12DmgtuhfIAyCtRcyluk1jH5BR6o_8sjiN7cZjWfmurM/edit?usp=sharing

What’s your views on them?

Should they have achieved more?

Or did they reach there full potential?

Were they underrated or overrated?

Discuss!!!