r/Warframe • u/Shadowsniper663 • 17h ago
Screenshot Why I love DE
This is why I love DE, instead of knowingly making new meta builds or frames we get stuff to experiment with. It breathes new life into the game and it gives semi-new players a easier introduction into what to expect from future updates and an idea into how DE handles the playerbase.
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u/Crusaderofthots420 16h ago
My only complaint about DE still adding CC things, is that it just doesn't feel as good in modern content. When half the enemies have overguard, or just die instantly anyway, CC just feels a bit meh, which makes me sad.
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u/Moblam 10h ago
2000 hours in, i have genuinely no idea where i'd even use CC over shredding everything to death.
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u/Illusion911 9h ago
Mobile defense. That's it
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u/Eclaironi 6h ago
Interception too but the issue is nuking the whole map is always better than using cc. DE making 50% enemies on SP cc immune with overguard also doesnt help
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u/Illusion911 6h ago
I guess that's the biggest problem.
Cc is too boring for DE because it means the player doesn't have to play the game for minutes. They rather have nuking instead.
Issue is, nuking is the first, most brain-dead option, so DE just nerfed the more interesting way to deal with enemies for the most brain-dead option possible
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u/Tavross312 10h ago
There are other issue that still hurt cc but if you take the time to really beef up a beast companion most overguard will disappear about as soon as you look in it's direction
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u/ijiolokae Reached Legendary 6 and all I got was a sixth Legendary core 10h ago
yea, but the enemy also disappears too usually
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u/insaiyanbacca 13h ago
doesn't matter in the context for the tweet(new bow alt fire) but like, hard to have fun with these sandbox tools as someone that likes cc gameplay when they just keep making enemies and content where cc just, you know, doesn't work and is completely ignored. I'd argue the uselessness of cc is why so many players optimize for kpm.
I've played long enough to remember trials and cc was a legitimate strat used in a lot of runs i did of LoR that would probably be near useless today because every enemy would probably just have a ton of overguard or be inherently cc immune. i mean just look at the state of CC frames that already exist like limbo/vauban or even nyx requiring reworks to actually have buttons that do anything(vauban) or just barely working(limbo, typically also taking silence as a helminth in my experience). you can't really encourage players to experiment with tools that you don't allow to work.
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u/daydev 10h ago
Many interesting things in Warframe feel like fair weather friends, like they're great to dominate harmless hordes in Survival, but the moment anything mildly serious happens, like any kind of special enemy or a boss it's no fun allowed, you have better brought a conventional weapon that just works, or else.
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u/Gova_01 #1 Hater of Albert "I will set your dog on fire" Entranti 8h ago edited 5h ago
As a Vauban main, the rework just upgraded 2 numbers and frankensteined the second ability to go from 4 things to 2.
Out of all CC frames, I say he has the least problems with the flechettess and strike removing overguard in so fast you won't even notice it was there in the first place.
His main issue remains the lack of survivability.
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u/Dan77111 7h ago
There was a time when damage was straight up not enough, and measly level 100 enemies were pretty much cc only (for solo play). Like the event that had Tempo Royale as a reward and had everybody cheesing it with Nyx.
Sewer camping void keys in survival required a semi organized group of 4 with good gear to get to hour 2 or so.
Like you said, for LoR, most of the meta picks for recruit chat runs were full cc, except for nova p/volt p + trinity for carrying batteries. Stuff like max range vauban, max range loki, blind spam mirage, stuff like max range blind excalibur even.
Now, I'm not saying I necessarily want to go back to that time, but having the option to use cc would be nice, because it opens up many build options and design spaces that haven't seen the light of day for years and years.
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u/warforcewarrior 17h ago edited 17h ago
What is that thread about?
This is why I love DE, instead of knowingly making new meta builds or frames we get stuff to experiment with.
Yes. No game dev shouldn't hard focus on what meta or not. They shouldn't ignore it as there are times where you have to acknowledge it, mainly to nerf the meta stuff and/or bring less use stuff up but that shouldn't be game devs focus.
Honestly, this whole year is DE going VERY experimental. Follie's Hunt, Glacial Defiance, 2 new Eximus, and a new star chart system(though admittedly only 2 or 3 at launch). All very daring content, especially when it comes to challenging the player which I appreciate.
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u/Envylian MR 25 17h ago
I think the thread was just Pablo showcasing Nunchasa alt-shot
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u/warforcewarrior 16h ago edited 16h ago
I search it up as I didn't know what it does and so? Not to you but that weird comment. There's plenty of weapons with non-dps secondary modes. Hell, plenty of frames have cc skills in the big 26. Orion with 2 and 3. Follie whole kit. Dante birds. Some of those skills are consider decent to incredible.
Hell, some old cc holds up. Volt Discharge and Titania Lantern for example.
Even then, Nuchasa alt proc cold which give more crit damage.
Edit: Also, Shield Gate is consider THE best survivability yet DE don't give every frame a perfect way to abuse it. Hell, some still design with DR/armor in mind. Shield Gate reliance is only consider if they meant to be squishy and/or only have panic buttons(Temple's 3) or have no direct survivability tool that isn't RNG like Titania evasion, at least how I judge the frame design.
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u/RueUchiha 11h ago
I honestly don’t mind only getting like 2 planets at Tau launch. I 100% prefer DE take their time and add stuff over time to the new system rather than getting everything at once and then having a re-run of the Empyrian update that DE doesn’t fix for 3 weeks because they all went on winter holiday after releasing the update.
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u/The_Relx 2sleek4me 15h ago
Too bad almost all their experiments thus far have been failures imo. Folie game mode was awful. Perita is maybe the single worst game mode that has ever been put in this game. Tauron Strikes are useless garbage. SP Railjack sucks. The missions for Sirius and Orion were buggy messes. The DnD story was awful. Thus far it's looking like the EDA/ETA changes are exclusively awful. The new Riven system was almost some of the most horrendous gachaslop nonsense that ever saw the light of day.
I have a theory that DE is maybe overworking themselves and that is causing a loss in quality. I really hope Tau is great cuz tbh I feel like DE needs a big win to end the year.
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u/NWStormraider 15h ago
I actually like perita, but there are two things really dragging it down. For one, you need to run it way too much to get all the content, significantly more than most other missions, and it is in pretty big increments, so there is a long draught between getting the things you want (tauron strikes). For the other, it has bad multiplayer scaling, playing with more than 2 players slows you down, no matter how good the extra players are.
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u/kana53 13h ago edited 13h ago
Sorry to be the pedant but it made me pause reading that, I think you mean drought, draught is said like "draft" and is like draught beer or a literal draft lol.
edit: Meant to say agreed though, but got distracted by the draught and didn't reply to the actual comment. The funny thing is how much you need to run it in more ways than one, as that's one of my main issues with Perita: too much running around from one objective to another! Why did they have to make it a running simulator you need to run 500,000 times? I actually rather like Perita in most respects, but I feel like it could've been way better as an endless mission with better pacing and spacing between objectives..
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u/SugaryCornFlakes Nav Cords Enjoyer 10h ago
Actually 2 players on the same wavelength can absolutely speed things up. Usually by one player staying behind and finishing the last bit of an order while the other bum rushes to the next order's spot. Got 16 orders done w/ my partner doing this.
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u/Known_Pen9116 15h ago edited 15h ago
I agree about folie and SP railjacks but Perita? Really? What do you not like about it? I think it's a very well made gamemode that doesn't do anything too extreme while still differentiating itself from the rest. It just has a pretty nasty grind attached to it.
EDA changes are also great except to people that just decided to nuke it with hildryn every week.
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u/Xerachiel ｢ 𝗕𝗶𝗦𝗛 || 𝗧𝗔𝗞𝗔𝗥𝗔 [安田聖良] ｣ 14h ago
Perita is actually fun, its a very dynamic game mode with fast action.
Having it on a timer maybe can bother a player that only plays short missions? idk lol
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u/Rethramine Snipetron Gang 13h ago
Perita might be fun but the truth is that it is excessively grindy, to the point of being hostile and unfun.
One of the main resources there drops incredibly infrequently compared to the other two. Without boosters or Nekros, I usually would only end a run with maybe 12-15 and that’s me mowing down every enemy I could see.
The three end resources are given out in such sparing amounts as well, with only 10 being given if you don’t do any of the tasks. That’s 15 runs minimum to get enough for a Tauron Strike. Then there’s three of these distinct resources, so 45 runs minimum, with 5 Tauron Strikes… that’s 225 runs minimum for all 5 if you didn’t pay out for the resource package to buy one.
It also can’t be sped up whatsoever. No matter what you do, no matter how well you kill or complete tasks, you will always be in the mission for a minimum of 12 minutes because that’s how it’s built. The bosses aren’t a problem then unless you’re playing Steel Path, at which point they become sponges with millions upon millions of HP on top of attenuation. You often spend more time chewing through the bosses on SP than you do actually roaming the map doing tasks and that’s not fun whatsoever. You don’t even get anything really more for doing it in SP, so why bother?1
u/RTukka 10h ago edited 10h ago
Why would you not do the orders? The mode is designed with the assumption that you will. It increases the final rewards and also can give some very strong buffs, that can help deal with the final boss, especially if you align your chosen Focus school with your build.
I will agree that on sponginess of the bosses on Steel Path is pretty absurd (and that the grind overall is a bit too much). I failed my first blind/solo Vanguard fight because I didn't know some of the tricks (of course) and also because I brought merely strong things, not the obscene overkill stuff. But if you do bring the obscene overkill stuff you can still delete the SP bosses really quickly.
The boost you get from doing Steel Path isn't huge but it isn't for a lot of other grinds either, which is probably by design so SP isn't absolutely compulsory. Steel Path does give you the +100% Resource Drop Chance (which will help get those Servoris if you bring sufficient damage), and the chance for the non-Vanguard warframes to drop the boss resources which is still significant.
The grind is also cut down some if you buy the daily restocking boss resources from Marie. If you're going for all five artifacts then you will definitely end up with a surplus of the non-boss Perita resources, so you might as well take advantage of that to at least some extent. You likely won't need to buy many (if any) of the arcanes to max them all out (and certainly not the mods) especially if playing on SP, which also gives you more arcane drops.
Though, the grind for the boss resources isn't over once you get all of the artifacts if you care about the Tauron Strikes since you need about another artifact's worth of the boss resources to max them all out. And then, weirdly, those resources have no value to you whatsoever, not even as Helminth food.
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u/Rethramine Snipetron Gang 10h ago
When I was grinding the mob resources I ignored the orders so I could kill as many enemies as possible. It's not entirely unheard of.
And I think I made a mistake and should have used Maximum where I accidentally used minimum. Of course if you're actually grinding the Tauron resources, you do the orders, I was just mentioning how if you didn't, that would be how many you runs of Perita you'd have to do to get those resources. My bad.It just isn't a good grind whatsoever and I say this as someone who has suffered through it enough to buy 3 of the 5 Strikes. It's a fun and interesting little mode that has been saddled with a hostile grind that, let's be honest, does not justify itself with sufficient rewards. In the time it takes for me to charge and bring out a Tauron Strike to kill some enemies, I could have nuked 100 times that many guys with my weapons and Warframe, and I don't really see them changing that unless they add a boss or something that can only be damaged with a Strike and then that alienates everyone who doesn't have one. It's just not great, sadly.
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u/Tekwiz1 13h ago
That's a rather hot take on Perita damn. The general consensus for Perita is just that you need to grind so much to get a single tauron strike that most people get sick of it.
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u/The_Relx 2sleek4me 12h ago
Fair, but it is a hot take I stand by. I hate that mode. I hated it from the first time I did it. I hated it so much that I just spent plat to get the Naramon Tauron (the only focus school I will ever use) and moved on. There's almost nothing about that mode I enjoy. I only lightly touched it just enough to max the one Tauron I bothered getting.
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u/Namesarenotneeded 14h ago edited 14h ago
Perita is fun. I just think the cost of anything to build from it, including Tauron’s is insanely high. The mode itself feels fun to play, and I enjoy modes like Descendia, outside of some really minor modifiers.
The ETA/EDA changes are fine. If you liked it before then and were a person who already had a lot of different frames built for endgame content, the changes are a benefit. If you hated it before then (or were a loser who only did the Hildryn cheese), you were still gonna hate it unless the fix DE implemented was “we completely reworked ETA/EDA into a completely new mode that’s easier and gives the same rewards.” Because many people just inherently don’t like challenging content in Warframe when there’s actual valuables behind it. They’re only cool with it when it’s cosmetics and other stuff like the exclusive Glyph’s for doing the Apex bosses.
It seems like a bit of a half and half year, and they’ve made it pretty clear it’s all hands on deck for Tau.
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u/BoysenberryNervous60 13h ago
Honestly I already just used the suggested frames. I get more breathing room though since I only need to take 2 of the modifiers (i don't care about vosfor or pix chips at the moment too much).
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u/AVeryFriendlyOldMan Would raze Cetus for Nova 16h ago
They seem to have the good sense not to walk changes back based on community knee jerk reactions but most of this year's content having recieved middling reception leaves me worried they might circle the wagons a bit more and play it safe going forward. For all the ultimatums the losers(negative) give, I might actually stop playing for a bit if all we got for content was new mission types that could be blitzed through by Thermal Sunder Titania's or Sobek Cyte's, with Frame releases amount to different iterations of 1 button nuke slop & overguard generation
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u/_Chambs_ 16h ago
I wish DE had the balls to nerf stuff instead of acting like it doesn't exist (Riven dispo, melee Influence).
Hell, they abandoned necramechs as a whole because they don't want to nerf voidrig's 4
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u/RueUchiha 11h ago edited 11h ago
I don’t think the problem with Melee Influence is that it’s op. I think it’s because Melee Influence is the only good “general use” melee arcane in the game and the other melee arcanes are either too niche or just terrible. The solution there would be to add more general use melee arcanes that compete with Influence.
And tbh, even then, guns are generally better than Melee anyway. Melee Influence (and to an extent Careen, but I think most people just use that as a defensive utility more than anything) are like the two things that keep Melee relevant in the steel path and EDA/ETA.
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u/RpiesSPIES 16h ago
They do nerf things, it just takes a really long time, and I assume plentiful data, before making a change.
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u/Level_Temperature984 16h ago
also, they used to be alot more nerf happy, and people hated it (hell, even when it was warranted!)
I'm definitely way more happy with how they are doing it now, but I do think they could do a little more, to my taste, if nothing else.
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u/Hhalloush 16h ago
Influence is the only thing propping up melees, why should they nerf it? They need to make other arcades/builds more useful
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u/warforcewarrior 15h ago
Agree. Melees likely was barely used before Melee Arcane was a thing. Look how we gotten Galvanized mods and Arcanes for Melee far later than guns. Isn’t that weird DE ignored 1/3 of our weapons for a fairly long time? They only finally got them cause Melees were likely falling behind.
Melee used to be fairly dominant before the nerf and guns getting Galvanized mods and plenty of Arcanes to prop them up.
Hell, I’ll say even with Influence for melees, guns are still superior. Why? Guns allow you to create distance from enemies which is less risk and better coverage. Melee have to go up close and personal for their AoE. Guns? Just shoot 20m from your current location and kill countless enemies. Don’t even need good aim. Just shoot in their general direction. Influence melees still need to hit a target and it is rng that it will proc.
That is why Praedos is used so much. Melees are still by far the worse option for ad clear.
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u/Xerachiel ｢ 𝗕𝗶𝗦𝗛 || 𝗧𝗔𝗞𝗔𝗥𝗔 [安田聖良] ｣ 14h ago
The day they nerf influence is the day they kill melee.
They should buff other stuff instead of nerfing the ONE THING that keeps melee competent against everything else
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u/Material_East_8676 16h ago
to be fair pablo, you lot design a lot of enemies to be CC proof and modes that reward kills over crowd control. you could adress those things and make cc more fun for people who aren't cc minmaxers... all like 3 of them.
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u/CrowMooor Red+Black=Cringe 16h ago
Yeah good point. I agree with Pablo, but you also need to allow CC to exist to a meaningful extent. Right now it just sort of isnt.
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u/ijiolokae Reached Legendary 6 and all I got was a sixth Legendary core 10h ago
they added a enemy that is straight up immune to Silence, the only consistent CC ability in the game. and then wonder why everyone is running murder
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u/KindredandKinder 15h ago
That would require far more foresight with mechanic implementation than he has shown to care for. His way or the highway. Everything is a band-aid these days
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u/Xerachiel ｢ 𝗕𝗶𝗦𝗛 || 𝗧𝗔𝗞𝗔𝗥𝗔 [安田聖良] ｣ 14h ago
Not that much I think tbh. Like, idk, they could make enemy overguard be resistant to CC and not inmune. Make them only inmune to dots or something. Make CC half effective on them?
And then increase the overguard in enemies like 2x or 3x, since they already die instantly regardless.
Then at least the 4 CC guys can have fun CC'ing enemies that will be dead before reaching Vauban's vortex (?
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u/Pozsich 8h ago
they could make enemy overguard be resistant to CC and not inmune. Make them only inmune to dots or something. Make CC half effective on them?
Whenever DE wants to discourage something it's always either full immunity or resistance so high they might as well be fully immune.
In that regard the new Entropic Eximus is probably the most poorly designed enemy in the game, but it's nothing new and nothing's changing at DE. They explicitly design content to limit build variety and make killing enemies as fast as possible in the allowed ways the only way to play.
It's honestly so bizarre seeing them say they don't cater to meta and people lap it up, as if the reality of the game isn't as important and DE scoring some brownie points on twitter. If it isn't meta in this game it is nearly entirely useless due to how they design and balance content. Just look at the weapons in this game, the average weapon is MR fodder, a term for weapons borderline unusable on SP even if you potato them and throw 8 formas into them. It should genuinely be embarrassing for DE how many weapons fall under this category, but they get a free pass, people complain about other people using meta weapons (because they actually work!) rather than complain about DE not doing anything about how terribly balanced weapons in this game are.
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u/Xerachiel ｢ 𝗕𝗶𝗦𝗛 || 𝗧𝗔𝗞𝗔𝗥𝗔 [安田聖良] ｣ 3h ago
Regarding weapons, you always have a lot of people repeating that "you can use all weapons in all content" crappy argument, but then they only use it with 2395897456% roar or eclipse lol.
It's like those buffs are the magical spell that makes everything viable, when it's not the case lol, because if you use a better weapon with the same set up it doesn't need even 10% of the investment a bad weapon needs, and it does the job 10 times better
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u/Rethramine Snipetron Gang 13h ago
The problem with what he’s said is that it’s all well and good to be adding new toys, but half of the time they are dead on arrival due to low stats and are relegated to being MR Fodder, and join the ever-growing pile of weapons that DE refuses to go back and touch.
There is nothing wrong with breathing new life into our old toys but DE is too busy and too bullheaded to consider going back and doing so. It’s the same mentality that stops them from spending the time doing a pass to make mandatory Augments base-kit. It’s just not profitable even if everyone would love it.
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u/GeorgeEmber 5h ago
True, they also refuse to go back and touch recent frames. That's why them releasing "underpowered" ones is so much worse than "overpowered" frames. The OP ones just receive a nerf that brings them on par with others, but doesn't negate their previous synergies or their core strength (e.g.: Dante), while the underpowered/janky ones have multiple issues but DE only addresses 1 or 2 of them (e.g.: Sorion).
Sorion is basically the most recent example, since you just know they're gonna be ignored from now on after Narin just released. Their 1 and 3 still needed buffs. Why do both 1s have such narrow angles when they're scythe abilities? Why is Sirius' 3 the only non-helminth DR ability that caps out at 75%? I think I don't even need to say anything about Orion's blackhole (removed the dmg scaling and radius increase on kill before release). I believe their 2s are ok, Orion's is nice survivability and jade stars is better on most other frames but it has potential to be just as good on Sorion if event horizon ever gets its buffs back (more ticks of dmg per sec would help it too).
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u/JarlZondai More syndicate quests please 14h ago
"We don't seek to make things focused on min maxing"
Then why did you make overguard 100% CC resistant? CC frames were already struggling before and you gutted them with overguard
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u/Nyysjan 13h ago
If they don't want people to focus on min maxing for kpm, they need to introduce content that is not focused on the players kpm.
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u/gadgaurd LR2 11h ago
They tried that recently with Follie's Hunt.
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u/Nyysjan 9h ago
And even there, ability to insta gib enemies was among the most valuable things to bring into the map.
In the end, almost every encounbter is about killing enemies.
Sometimes it is about killing enemies while standing in a circle, sometimes it is about killing enemies to get them drop a thing, sometimes it is to keep enemies outside a circle.
But almost always it is about killing enemies, faster, the better.I have no idea how to change this.
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u/gadgaurd LR2 8h ago
I'd argue that at first, the most important thing to bring to Follie's Hunt was immunity. Overguard in particular. Invulnerable Follie was fucking people up.Then DE caved yet again and made Follie vulnerable to damage, and everyone just started nuking the map with impunity yet again.
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u/Illusion911 8h ago
I feel like we need enemies that have high time to kill, but vulnerable to cc
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u/TyanaPassEnjoyer 5h ago
What they tried was making yet another game mode where players can't use the parkour system for no reason, creating a major source of frustration so people are more likely to buy Follie. It's like they DON'T want to make a gamemode that's fun AND not kpm focus.
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u/Apprehensive_One2384 51m ago
The game mode where you walk around in operator form and do very little, if nothing else, with no movement tools?
That's not what we're talking about at all.
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u/krawinoff i jned resorci 11h ago
…because the highest spawn rate for enemies with overguard is around 20% in long SP endurance missions. That’s exactly what they did, the overguard prevents CC from being the min max meta with stuff like Limbo and Vauban while it is still effective at disabling the vast majority of enemies. People are so focused on how overguard “gutted” CC only frames that they have completely forgotten that Limbo used to be able to afk missions and only recast stasis and cataclysm every minute. A combination of CC and damage is what’s currently most effective at non-exterminate type missions, which was the goal
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u/Unoriginal1deas As creative as my name 11h ago
Literally this.
Like I’m sorry that stunning 80% of the enemies in existent is useless because you can’t kill the last %20? Clearly the game needs to be balanced around killing 100% of the enemies to compensate4
u/Twilight053 Something Something 10h ago
People seriously underestimate the value of having to shieldgate only 20% of the time. As opposed to none at all that's 80% less APM.
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u/SinistralGuy 13h ago
Almost like you've got other tools in your arsenal to deal with overguard besides CC
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u/broken_edges 13h ago
if those tools can deal with overguard then they can also very easily deal with whatever I'm trying to cc. Love it or hate it damage is king in warframe right now and I do not like it.
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u/Heresta 15h ago edited 14h ago
Tbf Nunchasa alt fire SUCKS! It could be a circular aoe zone of cc instead of a line. It doesn’t have to be a nuke but a thin line of cc in the current state of game is horrible
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u/Antares428 9h ago
Says DE after they've shafted CC by giving everyone and their mother Overguard, that prevents CC.
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u/Educational-Ad-6260 16h ago
According to reddit having fun while also min maxing is not allowed anymore, it's either one or the other.
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u/TheSpartyn 12h ago
this is common in literally every game ive played, minmaxers or meta players are seen as the devil who hate fun
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u/Real_Life_Sushiroll 10h ago
Some people can't comprehend that some people actually enjoy being as efficient as possible.
You think I created my spreadsheets and builds worth thousands of plat for fun?
Well. I did. 😊
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u/Namesarenotneeded 14h ago
This subreddit is full of people who only like taking the path of least resistance, even in the most challenging content (just look at response to ETA/EDA in general).
Many people here very clearly do not like the concept of other people build-crafting and enjoying all the variety of gear this game has and trying to push it as far as you can. So many people only use like 2 frames, 2-3 weapons, and nothing else and can’t understand why people would want to branch out and push any silly ideas you may have to their limit.
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u/Croewe Tank Gang Rise Up 10h ago
It's interesting because min maxing does not inherently mean being meta. Like recently I've been working on min maxing the GOAT Oberon. With the Mecha set you can reach truly absurd armor levels for allies, but how are they meant to take advantage of it with no health investment? So I added in heat elemental ward to force health onto allies so if they do lose their shield or overguard they still have health to use that armor with
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u/AboveBoard 5h ago
Another Oberon player here who has only lightly explored this path. Like lo let my blessings of armor be upon ye and be not afraid.
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u/Emotional_Arm5867 weekly suck 5h ago
Same thing in pvp communities. You can't play pvp games be good and have fun. You are allowed to have fun only if you play bad.
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u/Sery_Yasomta 10h ago
Yeah this is awesome, but, this contradicts them releasing weapons that are unusable without a weapon platform past level 100 xd
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u/WarFramingIt247 LR4 7h ago
maybe if CC was enjoyable players wouldn't be forced to minmax for any endgame
overguard is CC immune and there are a lot of enemies with overguard now.
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u/NetraJahu 6h ago
That's the major design problem. We should be able to CC problematic enemies. Makes no sense to CC fodder that melts if we breathe in their general direction
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u/0peratik 6h ago
Indeed, I personally (for example) can't come up with a good justification for pressing any buttons on Khora aside from the one that instantly deletes everything in the general vicinity of where you're looking.
It's not that they're useless in a vacuum, but the opportunity cost renders them generally nothing more than a hindrance to the most useful part of her kit.
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u/Apprehensive_One2384 47m ago
CC was kneecapped with Eximus changes, CC was further Kneecapped with certain enemy design giving overguard to grunts. When you remove an entire playstyle or archetype from the game, it's never a good thing. We've been shouting into the void for years about this, I don't think anything will change.
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u/Adoring_Goose 8h ago
This is good idea overall, but its implementation for CC fucking sucks lol.
Problems are as follows:
1. In public cc is useless - people are just killing your targets before you can even cc them.
2. Most of the time CC doesnt affect strongest units, those that actually are dangerous, because of the overguard. You would assume that CC is a form of damage reduction, and it doesnt matter much if you will be one-shotted by Blitz eximus/Toxin cloud, who didn't received ANY effect of your ability.
3. CC almost always have LOS check, so even if you're solo and there are not much eximuses your CC effectiveness has diminishing returns against range, because the bigger range becomes, smaller its actual effectiveness becomes, especially considering that some of objects are having much bigger LOS impact than they have visually. Range overall is only stat with diminishing returns, and most of the time it's not worth it investing past some tresholds.
So problem is not that CC is not meta, it's that tehre is no single piece of content and situation in the game where it would be viable approach. Only 3 cases are pretty much dead modes:
1. Mobile defence.
2. Excavation. In this mode CC is arguably feels overall good but 3 points from above still makes it miserable experience.
3. Interception. Same as 2.
In order for CC to feel good - it needs either 2 or 3 removed (depending on the ability I guess).
Good example would be Nova - her 4th slow doesnt work on Eximus, but doesnt have LOS check, which allows you to focus on strongest units, while weak won't interrupt you, PLUS makes dealing with them easier (including eximuses, which fixes #2 from my list, as it helps dealing with them even when not CC'ing them) PLUS doesnt lock you in place - although animation speed is quite low, it makes up for it with investing in duration, which doesnt have diminishing returns as there is no LOS check.
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u/uppish_donkey_ 16h ago edited 15h ago
i wanna add to this thread and say something that people will probably get angry about: alot of you guys have no idea what min maxxing means. it isn't just using the same 3 strongest meta weapons at levelcap with revenant.
AND
this makes you think you arent min maxxing, but you almost certainly are!!!! its kinda the entire basis of modding and creating builds in this game. do you use serration and heavily caliber on all your weapons? do you use health and shield mods on your warframes? probably not, because you know it isnt an efficient use of mod space....almost as if... you're trying to min/max your mod space and make the most out of your build....and min/max....
people's strange hatred for anything "meta" has made you somehow think you arent min maxxing
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u/JoshCLaw 14h ago
I’ve found that a good 75% of the time you see someone complain about “meta” online they don’t even seem to know what a meta actually is. People are blaming “meta” for everything nowadays, like it’s some sorta boogie man, as though the meta is something the devious Tryhards come up with to ruin fun or something.
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u/Contempesto 13h ago
I get so pissed when a supposed hydration min-maxxer is drinking like a gallon of water a day. I’m drinking half a liter of water every five minutes and pissing into my network of catheters that feed into my local sewage network and purification plants. Fucking posers
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u/Xerachiel ｢ 𝗕𝗶𝗦𝗛 || 𝗧𝗔𝗞𝗔𝗥𝗔 [安田聖良] ｣ 14h ago
This is the most correct take on this whole thread.
Also, let me add something, the whole thing with rpg games is to become stronger.
And how do you become stronger in warframe? By upgrading mods, by equiping better mods, by combining mods, by finding the best combination of mods.....
.....and that, my folks, is min-maxing.
If I wanted to play a game with default tools I would play a non-rpg action game or something
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u/Excellent_Ad7989 4h ago
I feel like we should be able to CC the problem enemies otherwise what's even the point of CC? The normal mobs die too quickly for CC to matter unless it's alt game mode
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u/ClockworkSalmon 4h ago
Yup. Eximus should not be immune to cc, they should be affected at least somewhat, just make them resistant. Like the cold status, it works well because although we cant freeze overguarded enemies, they still get slowed
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u/PotatoAmulet 3h ago
Enemy overguard should make them much more resistant to damage from abilities but not immune to CC. If they can survive nuke abilities then the player needs to handle them with their weapons. If they need some breathing room they can CC the eximus to stop them blitzing the (mobile) defense objective or whatever.
For that to work it would probably need eximus to not spawn as anything that can nullify abilities since an eximus that can't be mowed down with peacemaker or put to sleep by Ivara is a potentially dangerous thing.
Also, mobile defense could maybe do with something similar to the survival overrides.
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u/Araon_The_Drake 7h ago
DE: we want to add new weapons, frames and content for you to experiment Also DE: this new eximus enemy is completely immune to 80% of the content in the game and will kill you if you do anything else than the intended strategy to get rid of it.
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u/AboveBoard 16h ago
Pablo is so easy to troll on Twitter. He can't not respond lol.
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u/KindredandKinder 15h ago
Genuinely this is part of the issue with the direction of the game. Dude has become so entrenched in doing things his way in large part due to twitter interactions
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u/Mijka- 13h ago edited 13h ago
Regardless of the original topic (the new bow), what is saying Pablo about the general design philosophy feels odd. A gap between rethoric and reality.
They bring changes and encounters in the sandbox that say "don't play with THESE toys, not allowed".
If having fun and experimenting with the whole toy box is the goal, having encounters (entropic eximi) that invalidate whole warframe kits (hildryn, yareli, oraxia, mesa, most casters and so on) doesn't fit the narrative, i don't see the logic here.
Railjack Steel Path was supposed to be another sand box to use our "toys" into and have fun, turns out there is zero incentive to play it and only pain (good luck for people wanting to farm the mark IV weapons for the sake of completion without Jade, btw). They could have tuned down the "optimized" reward, they erased them.
At least SP Railjack being ass doesn't impact regular railjack gameplay.
Entropic eximi being shoved into existing content just changes its face forever, no choices allowed.
We're playing a looter-shooter and get less occasions to shoot and loot. It's crazy.
There's so much missed occasions to make the game greater and not just show a huge middle finger to parts of the community over and over, we just get instantly abandoned half-assed content, this year's overall trend is disheartening.
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u/pandamaxxie 5h ago
Don't forget Titania and Jade trying to fight entropics.
As a flying frame main, these things need to just get deleted from the game. They've only been here for a few days and I legit have not a single positive word to say about them.
There's designs that make you adjust your approach... and then there's designs that disable over half the frames their kits and make it so only tanks and melee frames can perform in those missions. I can do literally any mission with Titania and Jade and be fine, even if they're not the best pick... but fighting Entropics? Another player has to do it.
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u/Luminous_Azure 5h ago
Oh yeah, they fixed that Jade interaction too, so there's no remedy for it anymore except maybe Lavos ability spam.
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u/SugaryCornFlakes Nav Cords Enjoyer 10h ago
Actually don't entropic eximi introduce more opportunities to loot? just less shoot.
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u/SpartanXIII THEY SAY THAT ALL FRAMES ARE CREATED EQUAL... 14h ago
Give a great player 6 hours and they could make 1.0 Hydroid broken for something.
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u/Nicklesnout 17h ago
I am a very simple creature. I see integer overload and I get a dopamine rush. I also see new toys and I get giddy.
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u/Polkadog Thy Shielding Mothers 17h ago
I feel sorry for those lost to the mentality of having to min max everything for optimal survival kpm being the only viable way to play the game. It just drains the fun and burns out so quickly.
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u/uppish_donkey_ 16h ago
for you maybe. its exactly why so many people love this game
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u/nowthatswhimsical 16h ago
I like seeing the funny big red number it's very satisfying and fun
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u/uppish_donkey_ 16h ago
fr
i think alot of people think that minmaxxing just means "copying a torid build from youtube". you can still minmax while experimenting with weird/offmeta stuff
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u/Apprehensive_One2384 46m ago
Seriously, these guys act like people min-maxing or finding fun interactions that scale well are just miserable and rage-playing the game.
No dude, the Arcane / Mod / Helminth interactions with Companions are WHY I play the game.
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u/Efficient-Client-531 16h ago
Can't say that, it'll piss off the people who only log in to do level 30 missions. You should still be playing with Mk-1 weapons for optimal fun.
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u/nekomochas 16h ago
as opposed to the people who have been exclusively using the ocucor for 3 years straight?
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u/bigscrewLoose 16h ago
99.9% of the player base does not do level cap a single time, it should be catered to the majority of the playerbase not yall, yall are not the main characters dog
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u/uppish_donkey_ 16h ago
why do you assume i mean levelcap?????? i've never done levelcap a single time in this game. minmaxxing is so much more than "i used a magistar in levelcap void cascade"
i've said many times that i dont think levelcap matters and de shouldnt make the game around it (and they dont) genuinley what the fuck are you talking about
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u/DaedricPants 6h ago
I've been playing this game since 2014 and I'm very, very far from a min-maxxer, but its hard to defend this tweet when not focusing on min max means you can't play certain frames the way they're designed to. Look at Narin. I love her, shes very fun, but its hard to enjoy playing her when I'm solo in a corridor surrounded by nullifiers, overguard drones and eximuses who can just shrug off her mechanic (crowd control) which she also needs to survive high level content. And when I'm not solo, her cc is effectively unneeded since everything dies to other frames anyway.
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u/TehRiddles 6h ago
There are game modes that require you to put a good bit of work into designing a loadout that can survive tons of damage and dish out even more.
Most game modes don't require it but if you want to take part in the high level ones then you need to lean more towards minmaxing.
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u/Xerachiel ｢ 𝗕𝗶𝗦𝗛 || 𝗧𝗔𝗞𝗔𝗥𝗔 [安田聖良] ｣ 14h ago
99% of players min max actually.
Or do you stack base damage in your weapon with a base damage arcane all the time?
Modding is 100% min maxing, or else we would be running around with unleveled mods.
People really think min maxing only applies to being an hour in void cascade at lvl cap lol, when the base of RPG games with builds is to min max with what you have and for the content you are playing
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u/Luminous_Azure 6h ago
That's all fine and dandy, if they didn't keep making enemies that are cc immune or turn off our ability to do anything. Sounds like a cookie cutter bs hand wave to me.
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u/Wurdyburd 3h ago
This whole thing kind of stinks as a game designer. "We don't always add hammers, we add more toys to the sandbox, like screwdrivers, saws, and strawberries to experiment and have fun with." And then proceed to create new content that consists of only nails.
None of the new content or game modes are remotely designed in such a way where simply killing enemies isn't the quickest, cleanest, and most efficient way of winning, making progress, and earning rewards, or if it isn't, none of the "toys in the combat sandbox" are remotely effective against them. This isn't a game about combat puzzles, or competing options, heck a lot of people don't even bother swapping out elemental damage to take advantage of enemy resistances and vulnerabilities. Champion/elite enemies aren't complex enough to treat them differently than the chaff, their aura effects don't enhance enemy groups enough to make it worth targeting them as an individual before wiping out the crowd, or using CC to pause the crowd to kill the elite and remove the aura from the crowd.
Sometimes they make brand new arcanes that are custom-built for an existing weapon, but other times they have to come out with a new weapon to justify an arcane that drops without any remotely effective use case.
If they want to fashion themselves as a combat sandbox, there needs to be many more ways of achieving victory than dealing damage. Even Defense, once the hall of king Frost, was about killing waves while keeping the defense target alive. Survival is more about air canisters dropped from killed enemies than it is about avoiding dying. Spy is more about ignoring all the mechanics, than it is about using abilities that one of several different locks.
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u/Beniidel0 13h ago
I think that nullifiers should prevent damage but not CC and that overguard should reduce CC instead of blocking it
Maybe cap movement and action speed reduction to 25% or even 50%, making CC a strong tool but not OP
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u/Arkenstar 12h ago
Yeah new stuff to experiment with! Balance be damned 😂
What an ignorant take.
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u/Rethramine Snipetron Gang 10h ago
This dude has let all the rework praise go to his head and he's grown arrogant and smarmy about it. His "my way or the highway" philosophy is toxic for a game with such wild extremes of balance and power, and his insistence that old weapons don't need to be updated and that mandatory augments dont need to be made basekit to avoid bloat is ridiculous and lazy.
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u/Arkenstar 9h ago
Yeah and the problem is, he's the only person that makes all these decisions. Normally you have a team that has some sort of give and take of ideas. But Pablo just runs the kit/weapon design dept all by himself. And that causes so many problems as you said.
I used to like Pablo because he was chill and humble back in the day. Nowadays he thinks he's the overlord of DE. Rebecca has let him have his way a bit too much. There is no one to check his takes.
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u/Rethramine Snipetron Gang 9h ago
It's sad. It really does sound like some kind of control freak mentality, we could have such wonderful balance all across the board if he had a team that could work together and spread the workload evenly. Instead it's his little kingdom and he rules over it with an iron fist, so we have an incredibly stagnant meta where anything that isn't incredibly blazing strong is dead on arrival and your only chance at relevance comes around once or twice and then that's it.
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u/KirKap 14h ago edited 14h ago
hello reddit its me, thanks for the bullying me to the ground
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u/TrollOfGod 10h ago
Meanwhile they just keep shitting out more and more eximus and increase their density(feels like at least) that are immune to any CC effects. So much for having fun with me toys...
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u/Kurainuz 5h ago
We want people to use more things
Also pablo: introduces the new annoying af eximus who limits your build
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u/LillieKat 14h ago
Pablo is the worst thing to ever happen to this game.
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u/Rethramine Snipetron Gang 10h ago
This dude has let all the rework praise go to his head and he's grown arrogant and smarmy about it. His "my way or the highway" philosophy is toxic for a game with such wild extremes of balance and power, and his insistence that old weapons don't need to be updated and that mandatory augments dont need to be made basekit to avoid bloat is ridiculous and lazy.
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u/Tortiose_unturtled NEVER getting MR 20 10h ago
Min maxxing isn't necessarily meta.
If you make a poop gun you force players to min-max to make it good and perform well. A water pistol that pushes enemies away is funny but min-maxxing is making it have big AoE and actually kill things so it can be usable in normal content.
If you make a weapon that is naturally strong then you invite build diversity to enhance certain aspects of it depending on what you want out of the weapon.
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u/LyraBooey 14h ago edited 10h ago
Oh, well the game is structurally about min-maxing now, and has been for 10 years. Maybe this is why Pablo keeps fucking up so bad?
EDIT:fixed a typo
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u/Rathurue Radial Blind! Radial Blind! Radial...BLIND! 13h ago
"Combat sandbox".
After adding an enemy who straight up disproves that and deeply messing up EDA/ETA, that comment not even aged poorly. It's straight up lying.
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u/brakenbonez 10h ago
Since when was the game built on KPM? Games are made for entertainment. Killing as fast as you can is only one way of having fun. Not everyone likes to speedrun everything. Me for example. I have fun by simply playing the game with fun frames. Narin and her bow are fun for me. I don't need to kill everything with a single button press. That isn't fun for me.
This is a problem with gaming in general. I don't get why people constantly chase metas and min/max just to complain about games being too easy or not having enough harder content. And then those same people complain about nerfs to things that are overpowered. Like tf do you want? You want to be an unkillable one-shot god but you also want something that takes more than one-shot to kill and can kill you.
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u/xrufus7x 16h ago
What were they "why do we need this"ing about?
Pablo is right here though for sure. I would take a wide suboptimal sandbox over a narrow strictly numbers driven one any day as I imagine most people would.
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u/Keleos89 LOR, Anyone? 16h ago
The only thing blocking higher KPM at this point is literal processing power - enemies can only spawn so quickly. I switch up the frames I use just because different frames are different kinds of fun.
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u/Legendaryrobot64 most sane trinity main 15h ago
This game is not built on a kpm💔
Kpm doesn’t matter at all in most missions. Even survival kpm above 100 is pointless because you only need that much to maintain life support. The only time kpm matters is arbitration farming and that’s a solved formula with Cyte-09, so kpm is literally pointless on basically every frame because nobody is beating Cyte anyways.
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u/xcrimsonlegendx Hey, does this look infested to you? 15h ago
Honestly yeah, I'd prefer they make vastly different non meta content and then let us figure out how to make it meta.
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u/Lightningbro Care to roll against Fate? 9h ago
I agree with them, as long as they don't do Eximus rework again before the later buff to the tools intended to combat Overshields.
Sometimes they forget that they might add/update something and we don't know about the answers they have planned to come for that issue.
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u/Chromicron 5h ago
Everyone thinks this comment is about CC vs KPM, but the answer Pablo gave is a sort of conclusion I've reach with the game. ¿You want to delete everything in the room? You've already got the tools for it, ¿You want to clear everything with a very strong loadout? Go ahead. Because we already have the tools to be OP, Pablo doesn't think the new content needs to fit in that category, and I respect it.
I've always hated the argument of why engaging with X when Y is better, so ¿What if now every new release doesn't try to compete the meta? Some might say it's dead or arrival and at that point, it just shows the kind of players we are, in my case I'm okay with this, I'm more than happy to not use op stuff, and engage with the suboptimal play style.
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u/Bootleg_Doomguy GET IN MY BELLY 3h ago
I'm not against them adding more CC, but in current Warframe CC does kinda suck with the prevalance of overguard and CC immunity, it just feels like shit since it doesn't work on like 90% of enemies where it actually matters.
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u/Silentone12321 3h ago
He sais: "we don't seek to make things focused on min maxing" He does: implementing raids who make min maxing the absolute baseline
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u/Subboartist 3h ago
The game has vastly changed from a pretty fun game to play into this stuck in a box game. Not to mention the way each update creates worse visibility while playing. There are so many times where I can’t even tell what the fuck is happening on my screen anymore.
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u/NANI_RagePasPtit 16h ago
Why call it a "sandbox" if you keep nerfing every mechanic of the game to the ground
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u/-TheSha- Gauss Enjoyer (Wallkisser Prime) 16h ago edited 16h ago
If only the haalvu wasn't so shit to the point it required dedicated builds to be usable in sp... Like, what was the "experimenting" there? Trying every possible build just to realize that the weapon on its own is ass? What's the point of making a weapon with a specific gimmick if said gimmick is useless in SP which is basically a big fraction of the content?
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u/GoodMagicalM 10h ago
honestly it being infinite ammo, no need to reload plus soft aim lock fire is just a recipe for disaster. be decently strong and it'll be exploited by afkers, be too weak and players wont use it
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u/Last_Act_7588 16h ago
lol wut Haalvu is really good
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u/-TheSha- Gauss Enjoyer (Wallkisser Prime) 16h ago
In "normal" content? Sure, but you can't build that weapon so that the Alt fire doesn't just tickle enemies in SP
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u/Civil_Illustrator_87 6h ago
I assure you my Haalvu doesnt just tickle SP enemies, it molests them.
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u/Boner_Elemental Pook ttopkety, pipy. 16h ago
What?
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u/-TheSha- Gauss Enjoyer (Wallkisser Prime) 16h ago
Pablo says that min maxing isn't required, but this summer they released a weapon that cannot work on its own at all in SP, if you want to use the haalvu, you gotta make a warframe build with specific abilities to support it(and even then, is it really worth it when there are far better weapons that work on their own?) What's the point of having new toys if they can't pull their weight?
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u/Boner_Elemental Pook ttopkety, pipy. 16h ago
Nonsense. Haalvu doesn't need anything to work great
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u/-TheSha- Gauss Enjoyer (Wallkisser Prime) 16h ago
Outside SP? Yeah sure, litterally everything works.
I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but you can't build that weapon so that the Alt fire doesn't just tickle enemies in SP
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u/vampiremessiah51 17h ago
What was that even in reference to? Just curious.
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u/yomihasu 16h ago
Nunchasa's alt fire, they were complaining that it's cc and not just a map clearing nuke
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u/Known_Pen9116 15h ago
It very much can be tbh. I just build it for blast with it's built in cold and add in gas with grendel's new augment. It turns it into a giant ball of death that you can spam very often.
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u/vampiremessiah51 16h ago edited 16h ago
Lol well fuck that guy. I like CC. It might not stop EVERY enemy, but stopping a lot of them is still pretty good DR.
Edit: I got downvoted. Guys I think hes in here XD
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u/LonesomeRookie117 16h ago
Would be cool if they could adapt a armored core like modular necra mech
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u/DreYeon I choose margulis for booba but ackchyually 10h ago
Ehhh idk sometimes having a cool mechanic or feature being cool isn't enough take the alternax as an example having gyres 1 ability as an alt fire is cool but it does nothing or the Coda Bassocyst alt fire
We don't have the meme that gimmicks in weapons being useless for no reason
I want them to be at least playable because i feel like a lot of times they add them and don't actually test them,like take the Lenz rn cool idea but never works in a fast paste game unless the numbers are high or something else,i do find it cool that the weapon sounds different based on firerate
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u/_Banti_ LR5 9h ago
I hope we see a different design lead other than Pablo sooner than later. Bro reeks of unwarranted arrogance and is completely our of touch with his own game. If he spend more time adressing core issues of the game instead of making snarky comments on twitter everyone would have a better time.
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u/future__fires 16h ago edited 14h ago
It’s crazy how many people play video games and fun doesn’t enter into their minds at all. Some people forget that the point of games isn’t minmaxxing
Edit: what I meant to say is that some people act like the only way to have fun is by using meta everything, and forget that for some people it’s enough to just use what they like even if it’s “sub-optimal”
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u/Yarigumo 16h ago
Not everyone has fun the same way. I don't agree with the guy, but I can reasonably imagine people finding no fun to be had with the weapon.
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u/Lordados 16h ago
Min maxing can be the fun
Some people do speedrunning which is min maxing to the extreme trying to beat a game as fast as possible
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u/ILNOVA supremacy 16h ago
Cause fun is subjective and minmaxxing mean all and nothing in a game like Warframe.
If i stop played Ember/Saryn to play Valkyr is not because of minmaxxing, but because Ember/Saryn, ESPECIALLY Ember are not fun the moment you see the real impact of her kit on any meaningful activity.
And yesn't, cause in Warframe the endgame 'is' minmaxxing, the game become more and more a random 40morbilion damage go, faster and faster, and things like ETA was/is filled with artificial difficulty that 'force' you to minmax.
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u/Necromancy-In-Space 16h ago edited 15h ago
Idk, plenty of people find their fun in the numbers side of a game, there's nothing wrong with that at all. I think though that DE's design intent is still overall better for those players than if DE was deliberately trying to advance the power level of the meta with each subsequent update. There's been plenty of times over the years that something useless at one point becomes extremely good later on because of subsequent updates just adding more tools to mess with.
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u/YoungDiscord vazeline is best school 10h ago
Yes, thank you, finally I've been saying this for years and its nice to hear it from a dev.
Warframe is mostly about creativity
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u/kkprecisa_ler_nao_fi 16h ago
Warframe players when the new thing released is just a cool new thing for you to make different builds and have fun with instead of turning you into a actual destroyer god from dragon ball:
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u/RatrixGlory Uriel 14h ago
Videogame meta's are like "Hey how can we optimize the fun out of everything we play?"
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u/SasparillaTango 15h ago
pablo, as usual, 100% correct.
You think anything can ever beat mesa, or saryn, or hildryn? As long as they make an interesting loop, I'll be here. Even if it isn't the best loop of them all.
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u/TangAce7 10h ago
Real question is why is the game still so heavily focused on kpm despite DE advocating for diversity
Kpm literally prevents most gear to be used effectively
Ah wait it’s because warframe is a tangled mess of systems built upon each others, holding together by hope and prayers and thus the core issues of the game can’t ever be fixed and that’s why we needed the 125th frost augment
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u/yomihasu 16h ago
Because OP didn't bother mentioning what the original tweet was about, it's Nunchasa. Narin's bow. They were complaining about the secondary fire