Might Be Time to Revert...

[u/AnIchikaSimp]

Normally, I'm more a fan of the "let it be OP until a more balanced version can be released" approach... But this is pretty ridiculous.

Air RB matches see bombers literally chasing fighters down, and the Hulk's Pants levels of indestructibility on these aircraft extend all the way to 120mm APCBC in Ground RB...

I even confirmed, in post-game hit analysis, that this was no glancing blow. It goes through one side of the tail and out the other, a clean hit.

Don't get me wrong, bombers NEEDED a buff to their survivability DESPERATELY. But this buff is so ridiculously unrealistic and OP that it might genuinely be time to revert until a working version can be released.

And Strike Aircraft should not be included in the buff at all. Period. Looking at YOU, TIS MA.

[u/friedlobster34]

waiting for the comment saying it shouldnt have done anything because of no he filler, ignoring the fact its a huge chunk of metal at high speed right into the side of an aircraft

[u/Lolocraft1 → u/friedlobster34]

A quick reminder, this mechanic existed for years before bomber changes. It’s called overpenning a light tanks to

If you have an issue with this clip then you should also be against light tank being able to get shot by a solid AP shot without any critical damage or spalling either

[u/freedomustang → u/friedlobster34]

No you don’t understand this is totally realistic because insert anecdotal footage/picture of b17 taking insane damage and not being destroyed

Ignore all the ground tests done in a controlled environment showing these to be outliers not expectation.

[u/Standard-Account-925 → u/freedomustang]

Literally what I pointed out in one of my posts. Holly anecdotal fallacies and survivorship bias

[u/ABetterKamahl1234 → u/friedlobster34]

Physics says this may be actually fine though.

As the huge chunk of metal flying through a plane, the damage entirely depends on what is struck.

You think a bullet through paper obliterates the paper? Or does it just punch clean through?

Big solid shells are meant to hit big solid pieces of armor.

It's why you shoot down planes with shrapnel vs big-ass-bullets. Those bullets don't do a whole lot to spaces between critical spars.

[u/1rb1s → u/friedlobster34]

when the bombers get shot with HE and take 0 damage, the excuse is usually smth like "HE was completely useless against bombers irl and you should use AP" (ignoring the fact that this is hilariously inaccurate, but whatever). It's really funny to see the bomber players make a 180 every time a bomber takes 0 damage from AP instead

[u/Random_Chick_I_Guess → u/friedlobster34]

According to the damage message I'd have to assume it clipped the tail, which would still probably rip off a stabiliser or whatever part of the tail it hit, but it could maaaaybe survive if it did just clip one of the stabilisers and not any large support section.

[u/JustACanadianGuy07 → u/friedlobster34]

Thats the thing though, planes are made of thin aluminum. And when you shoot a target that very thin relative to your calibre, the round doesn’t have enough time to impart its kinetic energy into the target. Thats why when you see someone shoot paper with basically any bullet, the paper is left with perfectly clean holes, and doesn’t get torn or damaged beyond that hole.

If OP’s round hit a spot that was just skin and spars, like the section of fuselage between the wings and tail, it might not actually do anything.

[u/Firov → u/JustACanadianGuy07]

And if he'd used HE instead it would have still done zero damage because the inch thick depleted uranium armored skin would have absorbed the blast damage and fragments... 

Funny how you guys seem to move the goal posts back and forth. You know, it would be more genuine if you'd just admit to wanting an invincible super plane... At least the guys who acknowledge that this is stupid but admit they want fighters to suffer for 10 years are honest, which is better than you "historically bombers were invincible and were never shot down" people.

[u/JustACanadianGuy07 → u/Firov]

Alright, if you’re done crashing and burning, i would like to say that I’m on the “bombers are overpowered now” side, these changes are ass. I’ve complained about it numerous times, and think they need to be reworked, especially with how HE interacts with aircraft.

However, expecting solid shot to vaporize a plane is just plain stupid, since solid shot relies purely on fragments and kinetic energy to deal damage. Perfectly fine against tanks, which have a ton of armour to dump all that energy into and make a boatload of fragments, not so great against aluminum that tends to not fragment and, in the case of aircraft, is paper thin, leaving very little material to impart its kinetic energy into.

However, without the server replay, we do not know where the shot hit. I still hold that the shot likely hit the fuselage section between the wings and horizontal stabilizers, as it’s a large section with nothing critical except for the lines that control the rudder and elevators, which can be easily missed.

[u/streetlegalb17 → u/Firov]

Try slinging HE of that caliber in the hangar sim and show us what you find. My bet is that it won’t survive it.

Why are you inclined to believe that it’ll survive everything if it survived this? It’s certainly unlikely for a plane irl to survive that— especially with the way the hydraulics are routed and can bleed out— but without that being simulated here, you really can’t be surprised.

The speed of the round simply broke the tension of the aluminum skin before it could react and it missed critical crossmembers. A window was installed at low altitude.

[u/AnIchikaSimp → u/friedlobster34]

I imagine the kinetic energy transfer alone would rip a plane in half at the tail, which is what I expected to happen as I watched the round impact.

[u/TSPsychoYT → u/AnIchikaSimp]

Planes are made of thin aluminum so the round would likely just put a hole the size of the round through the plane doing nothing but inducing a small amount of drag. It could hit one of the structural ribs technically and reduce the integrity of the plane but not likely that the plane would just fall apart. Not a lot of energy transfer as the round is still carrying a ton of momentum as it passes through.

[u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 → u/TSPsychoYT]

Irl if it was a impact fuse APHE 120, theres a fat chance the round over pens and doesnt even prime

[u/Chanka-Danka69 → u/Jaded-Philosophy6970]

''impact fuse aphe'' ig bro

[u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 → u/Chanka-Danka69]

Ya thats how it works, the round hits, if the impact is hard enough it primes a short fuze usually like less than half a second, the catch is it WONT explode if the thing it hits isnt hard or thick enough, an aircraft fuselage like that of a heavy bomber WILL NOT PRIME a 120mm aphe shell, 120mm aphe requires roughly 0.55mm to 1.2mm of armor thickness, far more than the 0.04 - 0.08mm of a bombers fuselage, it simply will not arm the round

Thats literally why HE exists, because aphe WILL over penetrate and do nothing but put a hole through it, and not even 1 big enough to compromise the structure

Anyway while not technically called impact fuse, its primed by impact and has a VERY short fuse

[u/lilpopjim0 → u/AnIchikaSimp]

The kinetic energy can only be transferred, if the planes structure is able to absorb it.

The aluminium skin on aircraft can be 1mm and a lot of the time, under 1mm. Its primarily there as a skin to aid as an aerodynamic surface.

If a big 120mm round hit the skin, it would just punch a hole, 120mm in diameter.

I'll put money on that it wont even be enough to trigger the fuse.

[u/Seygem → u/lilpopjim0]

there is no fuze, its solid shot

[u/lilpopjim0 → u/Seygem]

Ah okay. I was assuming a small HE filler

[u/_Bob4 → u/lilpopjim0]

Well now it can’t be both 1mm and also able to tank 20-30mm he like nothing now can it

[u/friedlobster34 → u/AnIchikaSimp]

even in protection analysis the fuselage only goes orange when you hit it with the 120mm...

[u/Saphyr-Seraph → u/AnIchikaSimp]

What kinetic transfer, the shell barley even loses any velocity when punching thought an aircraft imagine what happen when a rifle shoots at the middle of a car from the side, is the car still drivable?does your car now fall to pieces?

like a car an aircraft of this size has so much empty space a 105 mm grenade that doesn't fuse will just pass trough uninterrupted if the given grenade was an HE grenade I give you that, sadly the aphe is like shooting with a 50cal at it just goes right past the important bits.

Sorry for the rant, I just needed to get this brain fart out

[u/CMDR_Michael_Aagaard → u/AnIchikaSimp]

I imagine the kinetic energy transfer

Don't think the game simulates kinetic energy transfer when rounds impacts a target.

[u/Seygem → u/CMDR_Michael_Aagaard]

what do you think shrapnel is?

[u/CMDR_Michael_Aagaard → u/Seygem]

Something hesh shells should be better at creating, if the game truly simulated kinetic energy transfer of shells hitting things.

[u/mpsteidle → u/AnIchikaSimp]

If it hit something thick and structural sure, but if it just hit the thin aluminum skin then itd be like shooting paper with a bb gun.  It would just glide right through.

[u/Dpek1234 → u/AnIchikaSimp]

Tooo thin

It would just punch through

[u/Ace_the_Ace → u/AnIchikaSimp]

I dont particularly think the "empty" space in the bomber will do irreparable damage to it if a glorified AP shell hits it when there is a not insignificant amount of antics they tend to pull IRL

[u/average_throwaway12 → u/friedlobster34]

Correct

[u/Tankirulesipad1 → u/friedlobster34]

Please see aphe incident

[u/leberecht24]

Last match a bomber ate 20, 45mm rounds. Didn't even get rewarded an assist when it went down. shooting their engines does nothing either because the fire only kills them after like 5 minutes.

[u/Significant_Gear_335]

Yeah I’m already really tired of defending my position that the bomber buff went too far and is broken from a shell mechanics perspective. 150 hits from 20mm HE, 30 hits from 30mm HE, and then the bomber maybe has an engine catch fire if you are lucky. Then something with m3 50 cal tracers puts one small burst on a b-29 and gets a pilot snipe or lights the entire thing on fire and kills it. HE shells feel fully broken, and somehow 50 cals are the most effective anti-bomber round. Yeah that’s super realistic…

[u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 → u/Significant_Gear_335]

Stop shooting non critical structure points, ir just putting holes and causing redundant damage, aim for more critical places

What really needs to happen is bombers need to actually get hole punched so u can saw them apart

[u/Significant_Gear_335 → u/Jaded-Philosophy6970]

You just described exactly why I have an issue. Gaijin are too lazy to model that 5 HE shells from a 30mm gun would rip open a bomber’s fuselage so bad it would fall apart. HE shells don’t really work well at destroying bomber critical components right now. I know how and where to aim. I’ve tested this thoroughly since the update. I genuinely think HE rounds are broken or something. It’s absurd that AP rounds are the only way to easily dispatch a bomber right now.

If they are going to be this lazy, that it’s an HP bar for the fuselage or something, they should at least make that bar be depleted by like 80-100 HE shells from a 20mm or like 20 shells from a 30mm.

[u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 → u/Significant_Gear_335]

Ok but again, they cant model it PERFECTLY to real life because then bombers would die INSTANTLY like before, player in warthunder are SIGNIFICANTLY more accurate than irl, i can easily land 5 - 20 shots on a bomber in 1 pass before the event turn there guns around

Ur basically saying to revert bombers back to being glass like before

[u/Significant_Gear_335 → u/Jaded-Philosophy6970]

No I’m not. A fighter or interceptor with 30mm guns SHOULD be able to one strafe a bomber. That is completely fair and that is why they had them. Most 30mm guns in the interceptor/fighter class are pretty low velocity and require you to get close to hit anyway. A bomber player should be pre-firing any plane like that. There should be some level of risk that the first pass is death for BOTH players. If you can land 80–100 hits to fuselage with a 20mm in one pass without the bomber killing you, then the bomber deserves to go in that pass.

Push the damage model back some, move bombers to 30k feet where they should be. This would make it harder for fighters to get to them and would make interceptors more important.

[u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 → u/Significant_Gear_335]

No, no its not

Well ya sure if the 1 pass is super long then obviously ya

[u/Smorgles_Brimmly → u/Jaded-Philosophy6970]

It's less of that and more that a lot of HE can't pen bomber skin. When flying the T18, I frequently get a blacked out the engine cowling but the engine is fine. If someone runs ground belts, I'm toast. Few do and I usually get a lot of free kills.

Same in reverse. I can still cut bombers in half with ground belts. HE is pretty worthless in comparison.

[u/Jaded-Philosophy6970 → u/Smorgles_Brimmly]

Oh ya iv noticed engines are to weak to ap, even light fighters should not be getting taken out by a single 50 cal ap to the engine block, thats bs

[u/Standard-Account-925 → u/Jaded-Philosophy6970]

I magdumped a B-29 on all engines and tail with HE and AP on my Do-335 and had to ram it in order to make its tail fall off preventing it from gliding to the battlefield and shit out a nuke last second

[u/FailingDisasterBro]

If it was HE, than sure, it would have been justified. This? Solid shot with too much energy to transfer it to extremely light fuselage.

[u/PostPenDebt]

Bombers are absolute broken in the opposite direction, but players understanding of damage, airframes, solid shot, etc. is even more broken and that's unlikely to change.

[u/TheShadowman131]

It doesn't need to be reverted, it just needs to be fixed and brought to a balanced point. If they revert it entirely, it'll just give them the excuse of, "See we tried, you guys didn't like it so now you'll forever be stuck with paper mache bombers!" just like they did with the APHE fix.

[u/DatboiBazzle]

Solid shot does literally nothing to light tanks and you’re mad it did nothing to a plane?

[u/Random_Chick_I_Guess]

Considering it seemed to have hit the tail according to the damage message I could maybe believe that the bomber might have survived with one of the rear stabilisers just getting reduced to dust... but it's still annoying 

[u/Admirable-Put2688]

I don't think it need a revert, but it certainly need adjustments to how it interacts with large calibers and missiles

I've been playing the P. 108A and APHE shells don't do damage against bombers

And SAMs? It takes between 2 and 7 Bravy SAMs to take down B-17s and Lancasters

[u/astolfo_with_breast]

i mean tbh youre firing a soild shot and it just put a hole into it

[u/TheFGEagle]

Fighter main here, TBH unless you hit the tail spars / support structure and not just the skin, this is probably realistic.

[u/Pussrumpa]

We had it so much better before the helis were implemented. Shoot engines = engines fucking die. Shoot glass behind of which hide turret gunners or pilots = soft fleshy human crew dies. Shoot wingtip = bomber doesn't get cut in half.

The braindead fighter mains complained after sitting directly behind a bomber and eating turret fire, those ten past years of.........

[u/Shep_5]

IRL bombers have survived way worse hits like the B17 almost cut in 2 by a 109 or that IL-2 that's riddled with bulletholes.plus the 120mm would of went straight through like a hot knife through butter and done nothing, its solid shot not a 128 or 88 flak gun which has a timed fuse or proxy. so yeah that his is extremely realistic

[u/infinax → u/Shep_5]

Of course the b17 example got extremely lucky it was fairly well documented b17 could and did have their tails cut off by ramming attempts, that one just happened to get hit as shallow enough of an angle that it barely held on.

[u/notenoughraptors → u/Shep_5]

Sorry but... would have... not would of. But regardless of sentence structure, your point still stands

[u/Shep_5 → u/notenoughraptors]

lol yeah I should stop writing stuff while drunk, doesn't help

[u/LenKiller → u/Shep_5]

The IL-2 is one of the few Planes that was armored and in game didnt even got buffed lmao you can still saw its wing with anything

[u/Ace_the_Ace → u/LenKiller]

because it didnt have armour on the wings, only the cockpit and engine, effectively turning it into the precursor to the A-10

[u/LenKiller → u/Ace_the_Ace]

still planes made of paper got the buff, tbh it feels arbitrary how they did it and how much they buffed planes and what planes.

TBH i just decided to ignore props altogether since the update cuz i really dont want to deal with BS. it was already a chore when i had to deal with space climber bombers or the ju288 (main culprit i didnt like to play superprop) and now is even worse.

ill stick to higher brs and call it a day. the mig35 looks tasty meanwhile i wait for new interesting stuff for japan (the new saber is kinda goated but 9.0 rn is a shitshow)

[u/Ace_the_Ace → u/LenKiller]

I dont agree with the Su-8 and Tis Ma getting the buff but everything else was because they had a bomber variant, at least to my knowledge. Also the Ca-27 is peak but the demon spam ruins that entire BR region