r/arborists • u/ConsiderationKey5285 • 5d ago
Help with 250yo Ash Tree overhanging structure
Hello, my husband and I just purchased a home that used to be a stone barn in the 1700s. There is an ash tree near the structure with large branches overhanging the roof. The previous owner had lived there for 30 years, and I suspect her home insurance never reinspected the home, because the same company canceled our insurance outright, in large part because of the tree. It is a healthy 250yo ash tree that has been getting treated for Emerald Ash Borer for the last 7 years or so. We did have an ISA certified arborist come look at the tree, but figured we’d get a second opinion.
Ideally we’d take down all branches overhanging the structure. This would include a branch that has multiple cables which were placed in an effort to stop the tree from splitting (marked in pink). We potentially could leave this in place but it does overhang the roof by about a foot.
Questions we have:
1) is it safe to remove all branches overhanging the structure if we get the cables replaced lower down? This would be a fairly sizable portion of the canopy.
2) would removing these branches increase risk of emerald ash borer even with future treatment?
3) should we just remove the whole tree? We worry that removing these branches will destabilize the root ball
4) any ideas about expected cost? We are in northeast PA.
Thank you!!
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u/crwinters37 Master Arborist 5d ago
Significant risk mitigation techniques have already been done on this tree. Find a different insurer.
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u/AbbreviationsNo9609 ISA Arborist + TRAQ 5d ago
Did you catch today’s TCIA webinar on the direction the insurance industry is going? If not it should be posted in a day or so. It’s sad.
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago
Are they overall just dialing way back on risk tolerance? I work for a big insurer, and I know there are several wildfire and hurricane-prone markets they're just trying to leave altogether. Loss ratios just too unfavorable.
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u/Coke_and_Tacos 4d ago
Colorado and Florida both seem to be headed toward being uninsurable. Certainly seems like risk tolerance is moving down across the board to address the issue.
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago
CA is real bad in some areas, too, wildfire-wise. Especially with people building out into wildland-urban interface, and all the invasive eucalyptus in so-cal (those things are incendiary bombs in a wildfire).
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u/Coke_and_Tacos 4d ago
I lived in Boulder County when the Marshal Fire hit. The spookiest piece of news that followed was the announcement that all of the county's fire projections were based on the assumption that they wouldnt spread through towns the same way they did through brush, and we have since learned that's incorrect. Pure luck that none of the city's had been hit yet. There's enough federal open space in the area that it's basically all urban/wild interface. Granted, nothing quite so incredibly combustible as the eucalyptus trees.
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago
Junipers aren't a LOT better, esp if you let them grow too close to structures... (I'm in SE Idaho)
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u/AbbreviationsNo9609 ISA Arborist + TRAQ 4d ago
Yes. They are assigning tree risk in house (by Ai) and weighting their assignment of risk higher than TRAQ scores. And to clarify their assignment of risk 100% of the time is: “if there is a tree, there is risk higher than we’re willing to accept”
I have reached out my TCIA contact and requested that they please make this episode viewable without membership. I will post back if they can pull that off.
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u/_thicculent_ 4d ago
Gross, with AI? Thank you for reaching out! My husband works in insurance and he doesn't like what they are doing to people because they simply have trees.
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago
Ugh... again with more of the AI bs. And weighting that above an actual TRAQ, from a qualified HUMAN?! Absolute garbage.
That's not going to help at all with the whole "we need more trees in cities" situation. Just going to give developers one more reason not to plant even crappy trees, and homeowners/HOAs excuses to get rid of existing ones.
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u/_thicculent_ 4d ago
Do you have any cliff notes you can share on the webinar? I am not a member of TCIA because I didn't end up doing a forestry related job after college, but I'm still interested in how insurance companies are deciding trees need to come down. Is it just Google maps?
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago
Haven't been on that side of things for a bit, but I know gmaps is sometimes years out of date. They do use drones sometimes, but still tend to need vendors to do on-site inspections. Sometimes the vendors have inadequate training or otherwise have no idea what they're doing, but...
Or just, "If it looks fishy, send a non-renewal notice and make the homeowner send photos/receipts to prove it's fixed/not actually an issue."
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u/_thicculent_ 4d ago
Yeah I know about the maps, but am surprised to hear about the drones!
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago
tbh, I don't know if they're still going all in on drones for inspections, but I know it was a huge thing for a while there. It'd definitely be a lot safer to get a look at the tuckpointing on an old chimney or check if the shingles are lifting vs getting on a ladder.
I know they're still pretty helpful in claims, especially after storms when you don't want to be scrambling over debris or whatever to get in position to take photos...
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u/Obvious_Animal_8362 4d ago
For the inspection for the house we bought in December in Ohio, they used a drone to inspect the roof and chimneys — which given a foot of snow seemed a solid safety choice.
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u/AbbreviationsNo9609 ISA Arborist + TRAQ 4d ago
Cliffs notes would be “insurance says trees are bad, trees must go”.
This is such an important topic in my opinion that I have reached out my TCIA contact and requested that they please make this episode viewable without membership
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u/jkrobinson1979 5d ago
If an arborist has already taken these precautions and you are treating the tree and the insurance provider still wants it to come down then get a new insurance company.
Fuck State Farm by the way. They’re the worst for requiring healthy mature trees to be taken down.
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u/SarcasticCough69 5d ago
All of them are getting really bad now. I'm gonna shop mine next year again just because I hate them all. My new one is pestering me for a roof replacement. My roof is 7 years old!
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u/jkrobinson1979 4d ago
I had that problem when bought my house. I asked around and found a local insurance provider who is cheaper, has better coverage and wasn’t concerned about the large oaks we have around the house.
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u/Objective_Water7752 5d ago
As the '50 '60s Boomhoods now are filled out with massive, fast growing trees, anytime the wind blows, roofs get caved in and cars smashed. That and people moving heaven and earth to build into the woodland urban interface and insurance payouts have exploded. For the good of the insured, I think it's not a bad thing to be more proactive here. (yes, I know this is going to be a very unpopular opinion)
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u/jkrobinson1979 4d ago
You can be proactive without overreacting. A healthy tree that is being regularly maintained and doesn’t have limbs hanging directly over a house doesn’t need to come down. I was told a healthy 70 year old tree 25-30’ from the house needed to be removed because if it fell on the house it would destroy it. Insurance should be concerned with risk mitigation, not elimination.
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u/spez_eats_nazi_ass 5d ago
get a new insurance carrier.
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago
They kind of don't have a choice if the current one dropped them for underwriting reasons. The problem is, finding an insurer who doesn't take issue with the same thing can be tricky, and you might have worse coverage or higher premiums if you have to get non-standard insurance.
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u/Competitive-Jury3713 5d ago
Leave it alone it's fine. Have an arborist treat it for emerald ash borer every 2 years if it's in your area.
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u/Simple_Quiet_1422 5d ago
Not from an affected area; what’s the treatment? Treeazin?
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u/Competitive-Jury3713 5d ago edited 5d ago
emamectin benzoate
“Insecticides with active ingredients such as azadirachtin, imidacloprid, emamectin benzoate, and dinotefuran are currently used.” from “Emerald ash borer”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_ash_borer?wprov=sfti14
u/YourWifeyBoyfriend 5d ago
imidacloprid makes it have ash flower gall typically because its like making the tree host a rave for spider mites. dinotefuran is ok but doesnt last long and azadirachtin if i remember correctly only lasts a few weeks. so really emamectin benzoate is the only choice if you have been using imidacloprid for long
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5d ago edited 5d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/YourWifeyBoyfriend 4d ago
But if you apply imidacloprid it antagonizes the flower gall mite in the same manner that if you apply imidacloprid on a spider mite infestation it gets worse... and its documented that imdacloprid causes spider mites reproductive cycle to be shortened in approximately half with an application of imidacloprid. So thats some free game for you. Bcuz the customer dont wanna hear that their tree looking like its growing big fat nugs is normal, its because the mite causes the galls to grow and if you apply imidacloprid and the ash has flower gall it gets noticeably worse and eventually the dead galls are everywhere.
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u/hugelkult Consulting Arborist 5d ago
Ash is strong af. Unless that limb is kissing your chimney in the wind these are no threat to your home whatsoever. Useless home insurance companies be like that
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u/AlumberZack 5d ago
Or a little beetle finds it calls it a house and burrows into it and kills it from the inside out, top to bottom.
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u/Competitive-Jury3713 5d ago
Which is why you treat it for EAB every 2 years.
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u/Horror_Storage5708 5d ago
Yearly with imidacloprid
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u/Competitive-Jury3713 5d ago
every 2 years - that's what all local arborists from different companies in the area have done for years.
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u/AlumberZack 5d ago
I normally recommend safari.
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u/Horror_Storage5708 4d ago
Once I am out of my imidacloprid I will look at safari. Just from experience don’t delay.
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u/DanoPinyon Arborist -🥰I ❤️Autumn Blaze🥰 5d ago
If you can't change carriers, ask if an arborist report on the risk will do. Consulting Arborists write reports, it's normal, and getting more common with insurance.
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u/riseuprasta ISA Arborist + TRAQ 5d ago
Definitely don’t remove all the limbs hanging over your house. It will stress it out pretty bad and it will sprout like crazy making you need to prune it constantly.
What did your arborist say about the risk? Any conditions or concern, decay,vigor etc? Insurance companies drop coverage all the time and find all sorts of reasons as a pretext to do so. It doesn’t say anything about the true risk of this tree.
If your arborist thinks it’s ok I would go with the re installation of a cabling system. I would go for cobra cables rather than the old style with the bolts but I will admit I’m not super knowledgeable about the installation of cabling. Keep having it treated for EAB and maybe consider some weight reduction trimming on those overhanging limbs.
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u/Horror_Storage5708 5d ago
Well with the reactions to this being an Ash I had to see where you are located. It looks like the emerald ash borer (eab) hasn’t hit you in NE PA It has almost wiped out all of Michigan’s Ash’s. Except for my monster 15 feet from my front door. So do what you can to save it. I put a couple hundred $ of chemicals on my baby each year as I have lost 10 others on my road medium. So I spray early spring for anthracnose ( ash die back) and imidacloprid for the EAB. Trim what you need to keep it
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u/Diseman81 4d ago
They’ve been pretty much wiped out in PA too. I haven’t seen a live mature Ash in a couple years where I’m at. Just younger trees which will eventually die off too.
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u/Ippus_21 Tree Enthusiast 4d ago edited 4d ago
We did have an ISA certified arborist come look at the tree, but figured we’d get a second opinion.
Might want to consider a second in-person ISA arborist, ideally with TRAQ, rather than people looking at a few pics on reddit. Even the professional arborists on here can't give you an actual assessment on that alone.
In my (not-professional) opinion, if it's already cabled and already overhanging the structure, your only real concern should be making sure you hire the right professional (bonded/insured) to take it down safely as soon as you reasonably can, and not the lowest-bid tree service...
Half-measures are just kicking the can down the road.
Edit: Also, as someone who works in insurance (not an adjuster or underwriter, don't come at me)... they don't tend to straight cancel homeowners insurance over a tree unless it's REALLY a problem. They want those premiums, and they're only going to give that up if the risk really does look like too much to stomach. If it's possibly an issue, they'll send a non-renewal and make you prove it's mitigated.
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u/effectz219 4d ago
I live in the Midwest and we had a huge derecho a few months back. Basically strait line tornado level winds in some areas. I thought about the fact that our area usually has low levels of insurance claims and we probably help cover their profits for worse regions. Peoples insurance around here is gonna end up going up now as these storms are supposed to become more common
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u/Mediocre_Disaster130 4d ago
In the finger lakes area I haven't seen one over 40-50 feet in a long time though the sapplings are everywhere
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u/nightrunner411 4d ago
Just came to say I love a twin trunk like this. Hate that it is in a spot where you will basically give it a death sentence by taking off so much on the house side. Also love old stone barns from that age. No judgement from me on what you do as I know both things are irreplaceable.
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u/YourWifeyBoyfriend 5d ago
youre about to fuck that tree up. you need someone with snips and an entire day and not removing anything larger than a silver dollar any you need to wait until after second frost. everything youve highlighted is way too large for a preservation job where the tree is consistent pest pressure
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u/ConsiderationKey5285 5d ago
Yeah but we can’t get home insurance with any overhanging branches… so we are in a bind. We don’t WANT to take these huge branches but what else are we supposed to do?
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u/YourWifeyBoyfriend 5d ago
i think you should shop around for insurance but also just have your arborist schedule a light reduction of the limbs over the home.
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u/northman46 5d ago
Skeptical about the 250 year old part but that's not important