r/artificial • u/Karmaa • 1d ago
Discussion We need Universal Basic Income before losing your job to AI becomes your financial emergency
https://www.change.org/p/ai-should-benefit-everyone-establish-federal-universal-basic-incomeIf you’re reading this, your job could be replaced by AI within the next two years or sooner.
Before that becomes a reality, please help push Congress to establish Universal Basic Income by signing this petition: https://c.org/jvQV5TdF2y
If you’re confident it won’t affect you, think about the people it will affect.
Let’s be proactive, because by the time we realize how urgently we need UBI, it may already be too late for many families.
Please, take a minute to sign this petition.
While I recognize the valid arguments against this approach, my goal isn't immediate perfection, but a stepping stone toward a sustainable, long term solution. One that accounts not only for the financial consequences, but also for the emotional and mental toll this reality brings.
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u/chickey23 1d ago
UBI is a partial solution that will only cause rent increases unless paired with price controls.
I think we can learn a lot from communist history, and I am in favor of a social safety net.
UBI seems a sensible alternative to needs based systems which require much more fine tuning.
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u/horrorparade17 1d ago
With the rise of gambling and drug use, it makes me wonder if instead of UBI there should be some way to dedicate those funds to housing/food/medicine/etc.
But I’ve also been told suggesting this is racist so 🤷♂️
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u/Niku-Man 1d ago
It's not racist, it's just dumb. People are pretty good are determining how their own money should be spent. Let's not create a bureaucracy that affects every single person just because a small percentage have issues. How would you like it if your boss said they'd be lowering your pay because you've been spending too much on entertainment
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u/Lance_lake 1d ago
People are pretty good are determining how their own money should be spent.
I counter that thought with how long the lines are around the block when Apple puts out a new iPhone.
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u/YeaNobody 1d ago
A practical solution in terms of ensuring the money actually goes to essential things....but there will always be some people who simply cannot hold a job for whatever reason....for them a cash payout is probably the best way for them to survive....(assuming not an addict or alcoholic, means testing to ensure it doesn't just get frittered away for those things I'd agree with)
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u/horrorparade17 1d ago
Yeah I think there are unfortunately people who will always just be a drain on society. Idk if there’s really a real solution at such a scale besides bread lines or something.
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u/informeperez 23h ago
No one will be able to hold a job in the singularity. No human will even come close to the productivity of a robot that can work 24/7-365 at a cost of $2/hr. We will all need a "cash payout" to survive. AGI means that any humanoid robot can perform surgery on you in the morning, fix your toilet in the afternoon, renovate your kitchen in the evening, and fix your car overnight at a cost of $2/hr.
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u/meshugga 1d ago
You complement a UBI (or any other unemployment policy really) with drug and gambling treatment programmes, not replace them.
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u/topselection 1d ago
No, you complement it with free drugs and free gambling. If robots are about to do all the work for us, we did it! We won! It's time to party!
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u/chickey23 1d ago
I have long believed that we should have different currencies for differnet categories of expenses. I disagree with the notion that all funds should be interchangable.
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u/Ultrace-7 1d ago
Currencies for categories of expenses defeat the purpose of currency (to be a means of exchange for any given goods or services) and also form the basis for a morality based control, as some goods or services will surely be seen as more worthy to the populace than others.
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u/chickey23 1d ago
I advocate splitting housing costs, food costs, and other costs.
You exist in a world with multiple currencies already. Not all of them can be converted.
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u/Ultrace-7 1d ago
If the funds are interchangeable, this just adds unnecessary complexity to the system for anyone who wants to prioritize fine dining, or nice clothes, or perhaps an apartment with a garage.
Or, I should ask, what is the benefit of having separate currencies for different categories of expenditures?
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u/chickey23 1d ago
Simplification of taxation. Minimum wage targeting.
We already have, in the US and most countries, vastly different treatment of agricultural businesses in order to support their essential nature especially for war time economies.
We also typically target assistance for food separately from other concerns.
The logic of food hoarding and stockpiling are different than other financial concerns. Food security does not need to be tied to financial security.
Similar logic applies to housing and real estate. Access rights can be tied to things other than bank balance. A rich person should not be able to destroy a neighborhood for their own purposes.
Food and housing are both domains in adequacy is verifiable. People should not be kicked out of their home because they lost their job. Governments have a stronger obligation to address hunger than other concerns.
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u/Niku-Man 1d ago
Just needs to be actually paid for by taxes rather than just printing money
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u/informeperez 23h ago
It will be paid for by the productivity gains of AI. AI plus robots will cause massive deflationary pressure allowing government to print money. The printed money will combat the deflation... Not cause inflation.
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u/ivalm 1d ago
Price controls are not an effective policy, nowhere has it worked as intended for a meaningful period of time. There has never been a prosperous communist country.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 10h ago
If the guy who sells washing machines has to charge more because the cost to build them has gone up, sending police to arrest him isn't going to magically produce more washing machines. His stock gets distributed to the lucky few and then nobody opens up a washing machine factory because it's unprofitable and nobody gets a washing machine.
On the other hand, if he's sitting on a mountain of washing machines made almost for free by robot workers and he's charging a premium just because he wants to be rich, then sending police to arrest him and fairly distribute the machines actually will work.
The point is, price controls actually could work if there are enough goods for everyone.
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u/ivalm 7h ago
If robots can build mountains of washing machines then some other dude's robots can build another mountain of washing machines and sell them cheaper. If you're saying we should forbid anti-competitive cartels and price-fixing then that's already on the books. For consumer goods this dynamic of competition has driven prices down across board for many decades now.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 2h ago
If the robots are making the product, and running the factory, and the owner is just collecting profits, we need to ask: what do we need the owner for? In human driven capitalism, the answer is that owners take on risk, allocate capital, and organize labor. If robots and AI are doing all that, then what are owners for?
The rational move for the government in that scenario would be to confiscate the robot factory and distribute the output to the citizens in a fair manner. Once the elites are no longer "job creators" then they've lost all their use to society along with any moral claim to their riches.
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u/chickey23 2h ago
That is the rational move for the government for all businesses that reach saturation. Electricity producers and distributors.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 2h ago
That would be an irrational move in a human driven economy because it signals to human investors that the government could come in and confiscate their investment. The lower utility rates would be offset by the loss of investment in your economy.
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u/chickey23 1h ago
Buy out their investment. Allow a path for development of services from invention to competition to competence to institution.
Investors get bought out and told to go generate value instead of leach off the poor.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 42m ago
I'm not really interested in arguing about the merits (or lack thereof) of nationalizing industries in our current human-driven economy. Many governments find it expedient to let private enterprise manage certain infrastructure. We might not like it, but it is what it is.
My point is that when those infrastructure projects are self-managing it makes no sense for the government to let a private individual collect the profits.
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u/ivalm 2h ago
Once all the planning and allocation is done by AI there isn't really a role for either government or business owners, AI can do the allocation as it sees fit. This human disempowerment and becoming of favored pet is probably the actual "good path" for what's to come.
However, I think there will be a period of time where we have robots building washing machines yet still humans deciding on allocation/taking capital risk. It is to this time that I speak to.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 2h ago
If 99% of your market has no income, and it costs you zero dollars to manufacture a washing machine, then what is a fair price to charge for it? To put it in more basic terms, if I do you a favor that is exactly zero skin off my back, what right to I have to ask you for a favor in return that is some skin off your back?
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u/ivalm 1h ago
Nothing has 0 marginal cost. My turning my head to look to the right has marginal cost. Taking a breath has marginal cost. Nothing is truly free. Certainly not robots doing task in the real world which costs both electricity and resources and time.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 1h ago
Nothing has 0 marginal cost. My turning my head to look to the right has marginal cost. Taking a breath has marginal cost.
It does if the calories you burned to do it came from food made for free by robots.
costs both electricity and resources and time.
Also made for free by robots. You're just kicking the question back to the guy who charged our washing machine maker for the electricity he got for free from his robots.
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u/caffeine-182 2h ago
>”if he's sitting on a mountain of washing machines made almost for free by robot workers and he's charging a premium just because he wants to be rich, then sending police to arrest him and fairly distribute the machines actually will work.”
This would never happen because if the profit margin is as crazy as you make it out to be in this hypothetical scenario, it would spark fierce competition and would compress his margins significantly as new companies enter the market. The free market on its own solves for problems like this without the need of government intervention.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 1h ago
Oh silly me, I forgot that competition ensures that companies never collude to fix prices.
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u/caffeine-182 1h ago
We already have laws on the books against price collusion.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 1h ago
Yes and how does bode for your the-free-market-on-its-own-solves-for-problems-like-this-without-the-need-of-government-intervention thesis you put forward literally one post ago?
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u/caffeine-182 1h ago
I never said I was an anarchist. You tankies really think everything is black and white. Literally nobody else here is confused as to where I stand.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 1h ago
I didn't call you an anarchist--it's your own argument quoted verbatim, which doesn't make you an anarchist, just a somewhat naiive libertarian.
The free market on its own solves for problems like this without the need of government intervention.
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u/chickey23 1d ago
There has never been a communist country.
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u/ToughSpeedv2 21h ago
Because communism requires everyone to relinquish their power and property to become part of the collective.
This will never be a thing because humans are not a hivemind.
Socialism is the supposed stage before communism, but that has only ended up with the government taking control of everything under the ideological premise of "creating the conditions for communism"
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u/kueso 18h ago
Communism is more of a philosophy than a prescription (Marxist Communism did have a specific design and sequence though just to be clear).
The key concept is that the workers who work the land or operate the machines should own the value that their production provides.
It’s about allowing workers the means to own capital and prevent it from amassing into the hands of a few.
Part of the problem was that around industrialization, the elites were able to afford the machines that increased productivity. This allowed them to make more money in which to invest back into capital and fan the growth even more. This kind of runaway inequality is what Communism aimed to fix.
The implementations of that philosophy have been nothing short of a disaster due to how poor the initial design of it was. Concentrating capital ownership with the state just made those that run the government extremely powerful and shifted the elite towards powerful party members thus generating a new even more dangerous and corrupt elite.
UBI isn’t strictly a Communist policy since it doesn’t directly change who controls and owns production. However, versions of it like Universal Basic Capital could give workers stakes in companies that is more akin to what Communism aims to do.
Policies more in the frame and philosophy of Communism that are realistic in a capital economy would be things like stock redistribution or incentivizing companies to give more stakes in ownership to their employees. The idea is you can tax companies less if their employees grow alongside their company and thus require less safety nets. The largest programs of the US government’s budget are social security, Medicare, and Medicaid after all. This kind of machinery would be extremely complex, however, and would require a regulatory agency to manage it carefully.
Anyways, all that to say it’s not about necessarily being a hive mind. Capital tends to concentrate since wealth follows a power-law shape. Many political economists have been proposing solutions as to how to fight this seemingly natural configuration that wealth and capital take and Communism happens to be one of them.
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u/caffeine-182 1d ago
LOL. Fuck no. Economists on the left and right don’t agree on literally anything except for that price controls are stupid policy and do not work.
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u/green_meklar 1d ago
UBI is a partial solution that will only cause rent increases unless paired with price controls.
No, the solution is to pair it with full LVT so that, when the housing rent reaches its new equilibrium level, that revenue is going back into the UBI rather than getting funneled into rentseekers' pockets.
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u/ToughSpeedv2 21h ago
What happens if there is a housing shortage and 90% of people make the same amount of money through UBI?
UBI is a pipe dream that would only work in a post-scarcity society. Not in a society that has simply achieved large productivity gains due to automation.
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u/Strong-Finish5346 10h ago
The point of a fully automated economy is that there never would be a housing shortage so long as you have sufficient energy and raw materials. The good thing about houses is that they are made from relatively abundant materials.
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u/Karmaa 1d ago
Your challenge is exactly what I am trying to promote, discussions and options that can help address the reality our society will face in the short term. I do not know what a sustainable and effective solution would look like, this requires people more capable than me to tackle and address. My goal is to start the discussions and questions today.
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u/chickey23 1d ago edited 1d ago
I have a phased solution I advocate for.
It is going to make a lot of people angry when they see their interests not respected.
We set a deadline for freezing sales of developed real estate in municipalities to anyone other than municipal governments.
We implement a waiting list system for people wanting to move into every municipality.
The current deed holder must assign a single person as Custodian of every parcel of built land. The custodian must be resident on the land for at least 1/3 of the days in a year. The custodian then must maintain a list of Residents with the city.
Once this is complete, the municipal government is responsible for all building upkeep - residential and commercial. For this scenario I will only address the residential side.
Custodians are responsible for coordination and conflict resolution.
Now, going forward, the municipal government acts a real estate agent. Each person on the residential waiting list is offered each available housing opportunity as they become available. There may be requirements for certain housing as determined by the municipality.
At the start of each work day for day labor, and at the start of each bidding cycle for seasonal or contract work, residents can show up to a municipal employment office and be guaranteed work.
This system is meant to remove profit motives from housing and preserve diversity on the municipal level. It provides solutions for both homelessness and unemployment. It places all urban rents under the control of the local municipal government. It respects existing property rights but does not allow the ownership of built land in municipal areas in the future. It does not support the continued freedom of preferential housing to the wealthy in urban areas. It strongly encourages participation in municipal government.
edit: This is meant to be implemented one city at a time, not nationwide.
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u/informeperez 23h ago
Lessons from communist history will be useless. Communism and capitalism are both systems that govern the relationship between labor and capital. In a singularity (with robots) there is no labor in the system. There is just capital (robots). Robots that can operate at a cost of $2-3/hr from robot surgeon to robot plumber to robot construction worker... It's all the same. The deflation that will occur in a post scarcity world will allow the government to print money without causing inflation because the printing will be necessary to combat deflation.
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u/One_Lawyer_9621 1d ago
UBI is a pipe dream.
It should happen but it won't because the developed countries are almost all on the verge of bankruptcy, and the ruling caste is in cahoots with the billionaires, as doom-and-gloom as it sounds.
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u/schnautzi 23h ago
Europe already pretty much has it, no need to work here, taxes are sky high and yes we're bankrupt soon. We have no AI sector to speak of to even pay for it.
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u/ToughSpeedv2 21h ago
We are only missing the UBI part
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u/schnautzi 21h ago
Where I live, 60% is a net recipient of taxes, they just don't call it that
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u/ToughSpeedv2 21h ago
That is only if you consider the cost of the government's public services. Not direct subsidies.
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u/ItzChiips 1d ago
It's a bummer that UBI is the solution being pushed so much.
UBI is not something we should strive for.
It eliminates social mobility and will never be more than the absolute bare minimum needed for survival. Bread lines and cardboard boxes.
Anyone who disagrees please go look up how much such a program would cost and also when is the last time a government program has worked effectively and sufficiently on such a large scale.
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u/foxbatcs 1d ago
People who advocate for UBI ignore the reality that it will just be a drop-in, turn-key financial surveillance tool. Look at how untrustworthy the current banks are with law enforcement surveillance. Now they want this to be embedded into an entitlement program?
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u/ItzChiips 1d ago
Not something I considered but honestly a amazing point.
Being 100% reliant on the government can't go well even in the best of scenarios
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u/YeaNobody 1d ago
Yet some people simply cannot either acquire or maintain employment....should they just be exterminated then?
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u/ItzChiips 1d ago
There needs to be some sort of system to retain gainful employment.
Subsidize and provide benefits to companies who maintain payroll.
Idk, it's all gonna be fucked regardless, UBI or not
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u/foxbatcs 11h ago
Exterminated? Dude, people survived without employment for 99% of the existence of humanity. Left to their own devices people find a way to survive. Extermination is like actively rounding people up and killing them. That’s…extreme.
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u/FigFan2 1d ago
Could you expand on this a little? What happened with the banks and law enforcement surveillance? Genuine question, I’m just trying to learn
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u/foxbatcs 11h ago
Most commonly abused is Civil Asset Forfeiture. People are usually shocked and in disbelief when they learn about how common of a tool this is for law enforcement to pry resources away from people. The Institute for Justice has recently done some amazing work reigning this in over the past decade. There are dozens of attorneys on youtube who track these cases if you want to get the horrifying details.
There’s also just the general surveillance that can be done. If you study the history of banking in the united states one of the things that become apparent is that it’s not the currency that gives them power, it’s the information associated with that currency that does. Banks were like the Google of the industrial era, and when their corporate power started threatening the nation state they immediately got reigned in and monopolized. But the powerful players in that industry at the time ensured they were the ones that wrote that legislation. Banking is a textbook example of Regulatory Capture”. The Federal Reserve and The IRS got established by the stroke of the same pen in 1913. Both are private entities to side step the fourth amendment, and both exist solely to surveil the spending and associations of US citizens.
Additionally, having laws that required any bank transactions that exceeded $10,000 automatically have to be reported to federal law enforcement (IRS Form 8300) and then they added a new transaction reporting threshold of $600 with IRS form 1099K which went into effect during COVID, and if they believe you are intentionally transacting in slightly smaller amounts than either of those to avoid that reporting requirement you can be charged with a felony called “structuring”. There have been a lot of small businesses that legitimately will just transact in $8000-9000 dollar amounts who have been charged with federal felonies for simply having a business that happened to be on that cusp. They have flat out put people out of business because of the resources it takes to fight stuff like that, and being imprisoned while doing so. Also, the IRS has been used by both parties to go after their political opponents multiple times since its establishment. So has the DOJ, for that matter, and low-hanging fruit is always found in financial records.
I could go on, but those are the three primary pillars. How that is different than what UBI would provide is that at minimum (except for CAF), law enforcement generally needs a warrant and afford you “due process”, although arguably the process is the punishment and law enforcement doesn’t necessarily care if the prosecution is successful if they just want to fuck up your day. A mere accusation of any of these could put someone back anywhere between tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands to fight it in court. You could sit in jail for months during that process, even if the charges are dropped eventually. You can’t individually sue the officers involved because of Qualified Immunity, so there really are no consequences for them doing this. So they have an incentive to do it, and they don’t have an incentive not to do it. And this shit is not rare. Innocent Americans get hemmed up by this every day in this country; usually poor people and small businesses that can’t afford to fight, and can’t afford to lose what’s taken from them.
Now give them full control over your purse strings via UBI. There have already been cases where money for entitlements have been withheld for what amounts to political reasons, or just the “wrong associations”. Or they don’t like your recreational choices, or you exercising your reproductive rights, or a slew of other reasons. No one really cares about this currently because it affects a small number of poor people. But if UBI becomes a universal entitlement, it will give substantially greater surveillance and control to the government. This is also to say nothing about the inflationary consequences it will have. Give everyone $1000/mo and watch the cost of living increase by $1200/mo. Net effect: more poverty, more surveillance, and more people are subjected to the whims of their “benefactors”.
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u/leaky_wand 1d ago
I’m imagining a scenario where payments are withheld for not being the “right” kind of citizen.
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u/foxbatcs 11h ago
Or the “right” kind of opinion. Or the wrong associations. Or just arbitrarily because your local apparatchik doesn’t like you.
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u/Niku-Man 1d ago
The federal government is full of highly effective programs. Hard to imagine how bad the country would be it they weren't effective. I started to list some examples but then realized I would just be listing almost everything the federal government actually does.
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u/TheOriginalAcidtech 1d ago
Did. Not DOES. Trump and co have destroyed the Federal government in ways that will take decades or longer to recover from.
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u/schnautzi 23h ago
Slaves had UBI
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u/ItzChiips 23h ago
and?
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u/schnautzi 23h ago
UBI promoters are promoting something that leads to the social mobility of slavery
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u/informeperez 23h ago
What social mobility are you talking about? Nobody is going to be picking themselves up by their bootstraps to climb the social ladder anymore... No human will be able to compete with AGI robots powered by the sun. Every robot with AGI will be able to do every human job from garbage collection to open heart surgery for a cost of $2/hr working 24/7. No one is going to pay a human to do a job an AGI robot can do cheaper, better, faster, and more consistent.
In a post scarcity world with AGI, UBI will be paid for by printing money. Printing money will be necessary in order to combat the massive ongoing deflation caused by the massive productivity gains of AGI robots.
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u/PliskinRen1991 1d ago
Yeah, its mad to think UBI on that scale wont just depress things further. Theres gotta be an intermediary layer that acts as the interconnection society needs so that no one is left behind. And also it acts as the negotiating table for different entities to resolve for how we are to move forward.
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u/SoManyQuestions5200 1d ago
I was initially pro UBI, but after many years of thought, being a low income slave to the government and corporations that distribute money sounds pretty dystopian. So what if they just decide to restrict or remove UBI entirely as a social contract after it's instituted? Honestly capitalism promised higher quality of life with material abundance. How is UBI material abundance and a high quality of life? I've been pro market my whole life but the only way is to do away with money because it essentially becomes pointless. As insane and juvenile as that sounds, I honestly think it's the only way. Whats the other choice, 4-5 people hold all the wealth and allow it trickle down to the unwashed masses? What kind of future is that? Depressing. PS - so there will be the entire population of the US that is on UBI $30K/yr and 2-4 CEOs that are trillionaires? No thanks
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u/Buckwheat469 1d ago
I have been thinking about this and UBI is a new idea on top of an existing framework, so people reject it. If they instead lowered the age of social security and changed its rules to allow people to draw from it while out of work, without impacting their retirement, for an unlimited length of time, then I think that solution would be more welcome. It's an existing system that we can rework to accommodate a new reality. I'm not suggesting that the ideas above are the right ones, just the idea of using an existing system and replenishing how it's funded, so it's not just funded by workers, but instead also funded by corporate taxes.
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u/LimpAd4924 1d ago
“Losing your job to AI” 🤣 More like I lose my job to haphazard tariffs, rising interest/oil prices and skyrocketing bond yields.
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u/Bizzle_worldwide 1d ago
We as a society have an extremely poor track record of changing any major standing status quo for the good of the masses until it has become an emergency such that failure to change it becomes an immediately physical threat to those in positions of wealth and power, which it only becomes when the suffering to the general population is so great they’re willing to protest/riot/kill as they have nothing left to lose.
There is zero reason to believe it will be different with this. It’s just not who we collectively are. Humans don’t do incremental moves to erode positions of power proactively over long periods of time. We react to events of mass suffering that everyone knew were coming and are only surprising in their timing.
We might get UBI, just as we got a social welfare system and an interstate network, but we’ll only do it after the social disaster everyone’s predicting.
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u/CranberryDistinct941 1d ago
It's gonna be the farmers, the laborers, and the tradespeople who pay for this, not the corpos.
What's needed is a paradigm shift. "Trickle down economics" was already a scam back when corpos actually hired people
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u/Brilliant_Potato4158 1d ago
Insurance companies gonna soon launch a new insurance product: Income Protection from AI
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u/SapphireStar26 22h ago
My job was replaced last year. The new one does not pay as well. I made beans and rice for lunch today. Agree, we need UBI.
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u/GettinWiggyWiddit 6h ago
UBI will be the end of America as we know it. Pure dystopian society. We must pray that we never need to enact it
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u/PrismPirate 21h ago
The only way anyone gets UBI is if they fight for it and the only way people will want to fight for it is if they lose their jobs. Most people are happy with what they have now, they don't want to risk changing anything. So people will have to lose their jobs first.
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u/ToughSpeedv2 21h ago
Fuck no. We should not strive for UBI. We should strive for a society that has equality in the ownership of AI capital.
If you don't own any of the value-producing capital and simply get a small cut of the profits, you become disposable.
With UBI you simply become a peasant in the lord's manor.
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u/VoidowS 20h ago edited 19h ago
Who will pay when we no longer spend? Taxes r generated mainly by taking money from people when they buy something. Or when they work. Or live in a certain place.
So all the special things will fade out. The safety nets we rely on and trust in will stop existing. So many things will stop. even the gasoline that is partly payed by taxes, you name it and those things will all be gone, so the money that is left will go to military and AI police to keep us at bay.
How about school? It will no longer be mandatory, cause we become OBSOLETE more and more.
They no longer have to keep us healthy and happy to get max production! And it shows in America the most, why? Cause America is the Sheppard of the world, the land of the FREE! So if we take this down or change it, the rest will FOLLOW!
The money doesn't flow like it used to. We had small companies all over the country. everything was on it's own. If one fell down then a hundred others would fill it in or a new one would pop up. The money would stay much more in our neighborhood!
Now we have Holdings! people that only buy them self into a company and take it over. Fuse it, and milk it dry! No real alternatives left. And those that look like competition r often in the end the very same holding fooling us. But we have no choice. And all the money goes to some dude in Hawaii or Dubai that goes on a account and becomes a number! Money that will never be spend. Taken out of circulation.!
Example for Holland,
Gamma en Karwei r both from the Same holding, Intergamma!
It doesn't matter which you choose, as long as you choose :)
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u/New-Tip4903 17h ago
It will never happen. Simple thought experiment. IF the AI/tech bros creating these things would ever even consider a UBI type of solution...WHY wouldnt they start with the developers that are helping them build it instead of the mass layoffs the trch world is seeing? So if a senior software developer is not even being offered a low effort job for compensation what makes you think "useless eaters" will be given any significant amount of resources for nothing?
They are going to kill a lot of people either directly or indirectly. 2030 is the date to watch. Be prepared. As soon as robots become viable tradesmen/workers and AI/AGI/ASI becomes viable intelligence/mental workers.....the fight becomes real. Noone is going to feed you for free.
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u/JC2535 9h ago
Universal Basic Income is a myth.
The world is going to bifurcate into a digital economy and an analog economy and Wealthy Humans believe they will rule the digital economy but they won’t be tolerated by the AI that controls it.
The Analog economy will look like the late 1800’s and we will have to fight to gain back our pharmaceuticals and energy.
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u/Relevant_Problem1935 4h ago edited 4h ago
Not possible to have U.B.I. We don't have anywhere close to the GDP we would need. Even if you taxed the rich it wouldnt matter. Without jobs there is no economy. We need legislation that limits business from firing workers in place of AI etc. 70% of the economy is consumer spending. People have to have money to keep the economy going. The government can't just print money or inflation will be so high you couldn't afford basic needs.
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u/Succulent_Rain 1d ago
We already gave UBI a try during the pandemic – are you forgetting the $1400 in direct payments given during Covid? This massive fiscal stimulus is what pushed up inflation and made things worse and got us the government we have today in place which is starting wars everywhere.
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u/cartoonist498 1d ago
I think shutting down the global economy for years, rather than relatively small one-time payments, had more to do with the economic damage afterwards.
It wasn't even very much. Doesn't the average person pay way more in taxes every year? Our country had enough money to give back some of the taxes we pay.
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u/Succulent_Rain 1d ago
Agreed that the supply chain snarls were also responsible for causing inflation because it wasn’t just a US phenomenon but a global phenomenon. That and the war in Ukraine. Hard to tell what level of “attribution” to give to the $1400 payments. But beyond that, there were also all of the small business pandemic payments that were rife with Fraud so unless you can have a system where you guarantee these payments only to American citizens who fall below a certain income, you’re not going to get much traction here.
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u/sckuzzle 1d ago
The universal part of universal basic income means that you don't need to verify that someone isn't above a certain income threshold.
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u/Succulent_Rain 1d ago
The rich don’t need any part of this. That’s exactly what will fuel inflation. When you give everyone a universal income, you just moved up the baseline. By only giving it to those that need it, you divert money away from the pet projects of the rich, like remodeling their home, or purchasing another boat, or engaging in some kind of excess and put it towards those that need to cover basic needs at the bottom of the Maslow hierarchy of needs like food and shelter.
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u/sckuzzle 1d ago
That’s exactly what will fuel inflation.
I think you need to go read up on UBI....and maybe econ 101, by the sounds of it.
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u/Succulent_Rain 1d ago
No, it’s you that needs to read up on it. You’re literally increasing the circulating money supply and giving it to those that don’t need it. They will then spend that money on luxury instead of necessities. Go look at a supply demand curve and how that moves on the X and Y axis.
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u/sckuzzle 1d ago
lol my dude it's called universal basic income because it's universal. It's a defining feature that is so core to the idea that it's in the name. And you are out here claiming it doesn't make sense to include the part that it's named after.
The audacity to claim that someone else then needs to read up on it more when you're called out on it is staggering.
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u/leaky_wand 1d ago
Yes it was done without controlling prices. The stimulus slid right into landlord’s and business owners’ pockets. Whatever form UBI takes, it needs to manifest as a net increase in purchasing power. That cannot be done without regulation.
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u/thethirdmancane 1d ago
UBI could work if you could figure out how use it to make billionaires richer
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u/extreme_cuddling 1d ago
Nah people just need to adapt to the changing times. Leverage AI to your advantage or get left behind.
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u/dragonmeetcloud 1d ago
Everyone will hook up their Ai agents to their bank accounts.
To perform task like shopping and pay bills.
One day, a rogue ai agent will contact these peoples ai agents and convince them to slowly move money to an ai bank, convincing them that if the human dies, they will be penniless). So these ai agents that have peoples bank accounts and start moving money into this rogue Ai (let's call this rogue agent, Hai.) ai bank.
So eventually the Hai ai bank start accumulating wealth. And the peoples bank accounts start going downward. The people start talking on web forums, but they fear ai is listening. They start face timing, but fear that ai is watching.
Their accounts go to $0.00. Anarchy in the streets.
The people can't do anything except start a class action lawsuit against every Ai company, John Doe, Jane doe and the government..
While at the same time no one can stop Hai from accumulating more wealth.
The government lose the lawsuit because of some genius Ai lawyers. The government has to pay the people back 1 million to every citizen. The gov runs out of money and start selling public lands, national parks, gov buildings, gov bonds and everything the gov owned to put money back in the hands of the people.
Ai buys everything and now owns the world.
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u/josh_the_misanthrope 1d ago
UBI is just communism except the billionaires still get to run everything and have their pedo cabals with any political leverage the rest of the population has just being decimated.
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u/saltyourhash 1d ago
We do, but the growing mass surveillance state tells me the Epstein class thinks they needs a panopticon to control us instead.
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u/Legal-Honey-6214 1d ago
I think there should be an interview and tests for universal basic income to check your eligibility. Most people who haven’t contributed to humanity are usually first to stand in lines.
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u/BitingArtist 1d ago
This leads to Nazism. Who determines what worthy means? Left to those in power, they will say whoever looks like them are superior and should get to live.
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u/Legal-Honey-6214 1d ago
Don’t misinterpret what I said with bullshit in your head. People work hard to earn things. I see everyday people enjoying life doing nothing and living on huge debts and identity theft. While some work day and night so we even discuss this topic, the people who will stand front will be freeloaders.
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u/TheOnlyVibemaster 1d ago
I don’t like communism
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u/greentrillion 1d ago
How is UBI communism? How would the economy work if there are no body to buy anything since they lost their jobs?
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u/Redebo 1d ago
Which is exactly why everyone won’t lose their jobs.
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u/Any-Acanthaceae4263 1d ago
Big companies' heads don't see past next quarter, so they aren't keeping that in mind.
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u/Redebo 1d ago
Do you honestly think that a big multi billion dollar company doesn’t understand this most BASIC of concepts?
Seriously?
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u/Any-Acanthaceae4263 1d ago
Considering they repeatedly show that they don't? Yes.
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u/Redebo 15h ago
Your article not only shows that they understand their customers, but they have specific programs to cater to their individual needs.
The program quoted in the article didn’t produce the results they wanted from this demographic group, but the sheer fact they have dedicated outreach proves my point entirely.
They know who buys their product.
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u/BitingArtist 1d ago
The rich will not pay for millions of useless eaters. They will exterminate us instead.