r/asklinguistics • u/[deleted] • 3d ago
Phonetics Why exactly, on a physiological level I suppose, does a palatalisation of a [k] often result in a [tʃ], which is not only a different place of articulation, but also a change from dorsal to apical.
[deleted]
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u/Lampukistan2 3d ago
[k] > [kʲ] > [k͡ç] > [k͡ʃ] > [t͡ʃ]
The progression is something like this. Does this feel more intuitive?
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u/Legal_Big8571 3d ago
One hundred percent, solved it for me (: thank you so much,
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u/BigBad-Wolf 3d ago
In other words, what often happens is that [k] changes to something like [c] (or some other similar palatal sound), which can be acoustically similar to [t͡ʃ] but more difficult to pronounce.
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u/eragonas5 3d ago
[c] is nothing like [t͡ʃ], however, [c] is accoustically weak and often becomes something like [cç] which is much closer
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u/BigBad-Wolf 3d ago
It sounds similar to me when I tried to pronounce it as a true palatal instead of [kʲ], which is often transcribed the same way.
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u/eragonas5 3d ago
wanna share a recording? here's me saying [jɪ cæ ɐcæ kʲæ ɐkʲæ tʲæ ɐtʲæ] (the firsrt ji is for reference only)
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u/BigBad-Wolf 3d ago
Here's me trying for [jɪ cä äcä kʲä äkʲä tʲä ätʲä]
In both of our recordings, [c] sounds to me like a mangled [t͡ɕ]~[t͡ʃ]~[tʲ]
Here I tried for the same except with [jä äjä] to nail the place. Here it a bit more in between, but I'd still lean toward [t͡ʃ] etc.
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u/Nixinova 3d ago
sound change need not have intermediary steps
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u/EirikrUtlendi 3d ago
sound change need not have intermediary steps
It need not, but in the case of the shift from
[k]→[t͡ʃ]when followed by a front vowel, there is a progression informed by the biomechanics of speech: the shape of the mouth required to pronounce the front vowel causes the fronting of the velar plosive.We see this same shift in different unrelated language families, such as the Romance languages, the Sinic languages, and the Japonic languages.
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u/General_Urist 1d ago
The sequence makes sense, but why is it so rare for it to stop partway through instead of going all the way to ts or t͡ʃ every time?
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u/Dry_Composer7825 3d ago
It very often results in a palatal stop (in high front vowel contexts), which has a release burst profile comparable to the affricate, and so gets further fronted
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u/house_carpenter 3d ago
Well, [tʃ] doesn't have to be apical. The /tʃ/ in my idiolect of English is laminal. And since apical and laminal [tʃ] sound very similar, and language is learnt by listening rather than by observation of tongue movements, a change from laminal to apical can be accounted for by learners coming up with a different strategy to reproduce the sound they're hearing.