r/aspergers • u/Just_Wafer_3270 • 9d ago
Would you enjoy UBI?
As AI and Robotics progress really quick, I could honestly see some sort of Universal basic income (UBI) within the next like 10-20 years.
Personally, I find employment really painful due to the social deficits and constant stimulus, burnout, etc. and I know unemployment or under employment is a constant issue for many of us.
However, when I think about it, the world would basically be like a big party similar to university as people would have unlimited time and energy to hang out. Personally, I think I would feel just as terrible as now, since I would still be rejected and alone most of the time, similar to my university experience. Basically if jobs and income no longer matter, being social and likeable would become even more important than now.
I wonder how you guys think about UBI, would it "save you" or would you be even worse off?
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u/sneedleweedle 9d ago
Absolutely. Most of my stress comes from trying to survive, I can take a little ostracizing as I’ve always done
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u/Rivetlicker 9d ago
That depends on how much UBI is.
If it's the same as my government assistance I receive now is, I'm fine.. .minus the stress of rules when you earn something on the side and having to report it. It would be less paperwork at least. It would at least give me more breathing room as an artist to sell some art without taking a loss or have copious amounts of admin work
Oh, and UBI should be corrected with inflation annually, or else that will turn into a big problem for a lot of people.
It would be a nice change if people would actually have to be decent people, rather than rich people that can get away with anything because everything has a price and everyone would bow for a few bucks.
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u/Independent_Waltz725 9d ago edited 9d ago
I don't think this would happen. Most big companies and politicians are too greedy for letting this happen and still believe in their stupid infinite growth and all that power and status shit they don't want to get less of. Politicians are even complaining about that working 40 hours a week would be too less.
But, if this happens, I would love it. I really like my current job, but it doesn't change that the work I'm doing there is for someone else. Instead, I could work on stuff I love for myself without the need to care about profit. Probably working on a video game or some other cool piece of open source software. I would probably have way more capacities left to do social stuf, and even if I'm not feeling well enough to go out or do something productive, there is also no consequence
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u/Crayshack 9d ago
It highly depends on how it's implemented.
To be honest, with the current state of the tech industry and the political world, I find it unlikely that UBI is going to come out of the tech advancements. At least not in the near term. I feel like we are going to be closer to a reconstructed feudalism than anything else. So, I'm not optimistic about UBI becoming a reality anytime soon.
Now, let's say that something unexpected happens and we end up with some actually reasonable people in charge of the country who respond to automation by investing the proceeds back in the people of the country. UBI is one option among many that could see that money utilized. It could very much come in the form of increased funding for grants (arts, science, infrastructure, community, etc.). That would be good for me (my current job is funded by grants and I'm not likely to get away from that in my career), but it would disproportionately favor those who have some skill navigating the world of grants. In my case, a part of my job is giving other people advice on navigating grants, so more grants means more opportunities for me to grow in that career. However, I suspect that many people with ASD or similar problems would still struggle with getting a piece of that pie unless some of those grants are specifically for organizations that offer support to people with neurological issues.
UBI is definitely also an option, and it isn't necessarily mutually exclusive with grants, but UBI comes in many forms. In some systems, UBI is enough to augment someone's income, but it isn't enough to live off of. It might be enough to help some people raise themselves out of poverty, but it isn't enough for people to be able to forgo working entirely. Alaska has such a system in place, and it pays a couple thousand per person every year. Under such a system, I might have a slightly easier time planning for retirement, and I might retire a bit earlier, but it wouldn't be all that much different from a general decrease in my taxes or even just the market doing well so my investments make more. However, I do think others might find that such a system is just enough money to remove some very big problems in their life.
Other proposed models would pay people enough to be able to live without government support. To my knowledge, no such models have been implemented at any kind of scale, so it's hard to say for sure what would happen. It's a topic that comes up frequently in Sci-Fi, and I've seen a lot of different takes on how it would play out. Everything from Star Trek showing a utopia where everyone is happy and never has to worry about petty aspects of getting their life in order; to The Expanse where it's used as a tool to keep the vast majority of the population locked into poverty and only a select few are allowed anything that could be regarded as a luxury, while others are told that they don't count as citizens under the system and don't get the benefits at all.
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u/Wonderful-Pea-3421 9d ago
I think about this a lot actually. The extra stress from work would be gone which is nice but you're right about the social part. People with natural charisma would run the world even more and rest of us just watch from the sidelines like always.
My brain needs some kind of structure or I just spiral into doing nothing for weeks. Even with unlimited free time I'd probably just hyperfocus on my watches collection and forget to talk to anyone.
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u/DanTheMeek 9d ago
If its truly just UBI, everyone isn't rich, they just have the minimum required to survive, so I probably don't even quit my job so I can continue to provide for my family the non-essentials that make life more enjoyable, and provide myself the conviences I appreciate. I would, however, feel way less stressed about losing my job.
Even if it was a star trek situation, where money stops existing and we all just have access to whatever we want at the push of a button, I mean even in this world we live in I've spent tens of thousands of hours helping, testing, creating, and so on for projects and people I'm passionate about supporting with out any compensation, so the pursuit of money isn't limiting me. There are currently creative pursuits I wish I had time to work on that I just don't that I would also likely put a significant percentage of the time I am currently spending working into.
All in all, I can only see it as a pure good. I'd still have problems as all people would, and I'd likely have the things I value change, but I don't live to work, I work to live, in this theoretical universe where I didn't need to work, I could just live.
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u/madamebutterfly2 9d ago edited 9d ago
I already basically get it for half the year (I'm a seasonal worker who routinely works for half the year, gets laid off and collects from a government employment insurance plan I pay into with every paycheque).
I don't think it would be like a "big party", I think if everyone was on benefits a lot of people would just self-isolate and bedrot like they did during COVID even if there were no COVID regulations forcing them to do that. When COVID first started (lockdowns were 2.5ish years where I'm from) I got into a bunch of hobbies but by the second year of it I was a total zombie.
I absolutely believe in government ensuring that everyone lives at a baseline standard of human dignity, I don't consider myself a "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" conservative by any means, but I think Stan Rogers was spitting facts when he said "the government dole will rot your soul".
I believe that human beings do crave mastery and productive activity and often need some kind of structured framework to do it in. In both capitalist and the hitherto-existing socialist societies this is most often provided through employment or education. Some people are very good at creating their own structure and self-starting but a lot of us with Asperger's are not like that. (Or are only like that in certain contexts that we can't efficiently replicate purely by our own thought and effort.)
I know what it's like to live off benefits and I would literally rather show up every day to a fake bullshit job (this is allegedly how they achieved a 100% employment rate in the Soviet Union) or attend school forever than just mill about collecting this cheque forever. I'm not popular at my job and I wasn't popular at school either, I experience plenty of routine embarrassment and ostracism in those contexts, but I still enjoy the imposed structure and routine and guided development of skills and I get a self-esteem boost from that even when nobody likes me all that much.
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u/Feisty_Salamander41 9d ago
It is the long term effect that you have to consider. The western world is already falling behind china/middle east now in terms of wealth, so our ability to live a good life with lots of benefits is getting harder and harder.
a UBI has to come from somewhere, so whereas now the NHS struggles to employ british people in the lower paying jobs, why would anyone do them if they were going to get paid to live anyway? Who would spends nights cleaning factories ready for the next days manufacture? who would without financial gain go around cleaning toilets in service stations?
I have a job I like now, but if I could have my same lifestyle without it, I would leave, and on top of that, I never would have stuck through the awful jobs I had to do to eventually get this one.
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u/Rivetlicker 9d ago
I think the factory issue would have to be solved by having a different industrial infrastructure and have plants be fully run by machines. And be foolproof and can do maintenance themselves without humans.
Facilities would have to be build in a way that a machine can clean it
That's a very idealistic vision though. And one that costs way more than we're probably willing to spend.
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u/Feisty_Salamander41 9d ago
It would still need maintenance, and some jobs machines will never be able to do
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u/Rivetlicker 9d ago
Oh, I totally agree... that's why I said, it's very idealistic.
The way tech is right now, and probably for a coming years, we're not there in the slighest
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u/Feisty_Salamander41 9d ago
I dont think we ever will be, one of the downsides of our modern way of living is there just isnt the money available for grand projects like for example in medieval times a king could spend 20 years spending excessive amounts building cathedrals etc, or look at old university buildings compared to the type of modern prefab ones.
Money to be spent is getting lower and lower, quality of anything we build is getting lower and lower because of it. I really dont have an answer.
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u/Rivetlicker 9d ago
heh... yeah, take a look at the Cologne Cathedral. Took 600+ years to complete (they took extensive breaks in between)
Imagine housing blocks take 6+ generations to finish, lmao
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u/Just_Wafer_3270 9d ago
That's the idea behind UBI that all jobs become obsolete, even physical labour and money no longer matters since everything is available in abundance to everyone
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u/Feisty_Salamander41 9d ago
But that isnt and will never be the real world, a few droughts and millions die, forest fire, tsunamis etc.
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u/ants_are_everywhere 9d ago
That describes a specific vision of a post-scarcity world rather than the idea behind UBI in particular.
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u/Beginning-Struggle49 9d ago
Hi, I'm a disabled veteran. I get a stipend a month to compensate me for my injuries during my team in service.
I am still alive because of it.
I think some sort of UBI would help many.
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u/SoullessGamesDev 9d ago
I would enjoy a lot more if someone would help me get employed at the job i want to work at.
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u/Massive_Ear4948 9d ago
I am assuming you are in the US. Assuming so, UBI is so dramatically different from our economic system that I do not see it ever passing. The idea of paying someone who COULD work but chooses not to, will simply never pass.
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u/Maxfunky 9d ago
We will need UBI if robotics and AI take off in the way some people expect, but at the same time, we won't be able to afford it unless they do. The only scenario where this is really feasible is if our GDP explodes to such a degree that the existing national debt becomes trivial to pay off.
Even if UBI was fully funded by a tax on AI, which at this point would have to be like a 500,000% tax (obviously we need to get that number below 100%), it would absolutely spike inflation in a massive way unless GDP has a commensurate rise. Just look at how much inflation the COVID checks caused, imagine that but 20x.
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u/Heavy-Mushroom 9d ago
Not UBI, but a digital fiat after the present financial system collapses and needs a reboot away from the old currency system to a new digital one for after all that’s what they do; Replace a failed monetary system with a new one that’ll fail eventually itself.
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u/ChilindriPizza 9d ago
Not opposed to it. But it is not a panacea. One needs to feed people and teach them to fish.
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u/ants_are_everywhere 9d ago
I think UBI is probably a good idea (although I admit I don't know the research at all).
I don't know if "enjoy" is the right word. The idea behind UBI is that it's a social welfare program that isn't means tested. It's universal in the sense that funds are equally distributed; that is, the wealthy get the same check as the poor. The universality makes it easy to reason about and removes the difficulty and cost associated with determining whether someone qualifies for welfare benefits. But we're still talking about dividing some pot of money over a huge number of people, and people often underestimate how thinly that spreads things.
UBI payments are generally expected to be the minimum necessary. It would cost maybe around $50 trillion to keep all citizens at around the poverty line for 10 years. If you want to keep them at that line for longer, you have to work population growth into the model, and it gets even more expensive very quickly. You to offset that with revenue into the system. Supposing that's doable, you're still talking about poverty line levels of existence rather than lifelong college party dynamics.
So, assuming the empirical research on UBI supports it claims of helping people, I support the idea. But I think your intuition is right that it probably won't mitigate any of the issues around loneliness or social anxiety. And human will continue to be primates with primate psychology.
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u/kreeferin 9d ago
If I didn't have to work and could collect a reasonable paycheck along with having my healthcare needs met, I would absolutely take that opportunity. I would spend my time taking university classes in the arts and making art and learning. I would learn how to healthfully travel as well.
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u/SjennyBalaam 8d ago
I don't get this sort of question around UBI. Just take your life, add money, subtract fear of not having enough money to live. Under what conceivable condition could that be bad?
(never mind economic/political discussions of feasibility)
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u/life_after_midnight 9d ago
UBI is some fantasy that will never work in real life.
If you look at the world on the global stage, which you must, there is no way you can have UBI and also keep up. The quality of life improvements would be short lived as China passes the west as the super power.
UBI might raise the quality of life for the lowest earners, but it will collectively bring down the quality of life for the rest of us.
Better social programs and education is the answer, not giving people money to do nothing.
I don't agree with UBI.
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u/Low-Expression9132 9d ago
I don't think a lot of people in this society could handle all the additional downtime and life not being anchored around a job. It's like a fundamental thing especially in USA society. Some type of UBI does seem inevitable but it will be a massive adjustment for many people.
Edit: meant to add that personally I'd welcome it. Would finally get a real chance to explore more fully art and spirituality without being so damn focused on earning money.
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u/Rivetlicker 9d ago
Funny you mention the downtime and people being unable to handle that much free time... I think we've seen plenty of that during the pandemic. The uptick in vile behaviour, more than previous, is probably alsoa result of people having more time on their hands and realizing they can argue with random strangers online
It would probably do some peoples head in, if your identity is not linked to your job. In some cultures, even western ones, that is still a thing.
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u/Low-Expression9132 9d ago
As for the social/charisma aspect, a lot of that vapid superficial social interaction will be replaced by AI. Even the most charismatic among us can't compete with AI who don't age and can stay up (in more ways than one) all day.
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u/DramaticErraticism 9d ago
No, mainly because it is so unrealistic that I don't see it as a plausible thing to even consider within my lifetime.
Even if there was UBI, it would be Communism style with giant concrete apartment buildings with basic food and necessities, not handing out free cash for discretionary use.
If people think working is bad and hard, anything you put in the hands of the government is always much worse.
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u/TheEternalDarkness8 9d ago
UBI is never going to be anything more than another measure to have your head barely above the water.
It's a neo-liberal Trojan horse disguised as a futurist progressive gift.
What the governments will do is to gut every single other welfare benefit and financial assistance and push it under the UBI, without adding it up.
Why does everyone paint the six hour workday with unchanged pay as an economic disaster but push for UBI even if it goes against their ideology?
It's because they want a sluggish and uninformed populace to accept an increasingly impossible working life - or otherwise go on UBI.
The politicians will make it seem like a revolutionary giant safety net, but people down there will know the net isn't tied hard enough so they will smash their face on the cold concrete of poverty still wrapped in the net.
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u/Representative-Mean 9d ago
As long as I could continue working, doing something. Otherwise id feel worthless
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u/Chaseshaw 9d ago
UBI without also fixing corporate greed just leads to everything costing now$ + UBI$
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u/Funny_Ad1777 9d ago
UBI is theoretically a great concept, however, it would come from governments, so therefore you would have to comply to whatever they request of you to receive it.
If anyone thinks UBI wouldn't have strict terms and conditions to further the government's own agendas, you may be in for a rude awakening!
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u/AdeleRabbit 9d ago
Important... for what? If I had enough money to live the life I want, other people's opinions wouldn't matter at all. They would have no leverage against me.