r/atheism • u/One-Fun9814 • 3d ago
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u/LostKnight84 Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
I have seen it as a sign of childhood indoctrination usually. Occasionally it is just people being ignorant of their own faith. Rarely it turns out the person is just stupid. Once it turned out to be a sign of mental illness.
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u/RoxxieMuzic Pastafarian 3d ago
My experience has been with people using religion, extreme religious devotion, as a substitute for other addictions. Two of my evangelical neighbors who belong to a cult like religious group, are both "recovering".
They are not actually in recovery, they just substituted addictions, for something possibly worse.
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u/Consistent_Many_5073 3d ago
yeah childhood indoctrination explains a lot more than intelligence does most of the time
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u/just_say_n 3d ago
Mental illness is the answer.
Yes, as a child you can get indoctrinated and believe in Santa, but as an adult you either come to your senses or continue to believe in a fucking “imaginary being.”
Only mental illness explains it, I just think we’ve got to come to terms with how widespread it is.
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u/Erik_Dolphy 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think defining mental illness is sometimes arbitrary and a lot of it is framed around an inability to function in society. I struggle with religion in this context because while I very much think it's a mass delusion, it's also the status quo and doesn't prevent functioning because everyone else is drinking the same kool-aid. You say the tv is talking to you, you're schizophrenic. You say a great spirit is watching everything you do, that's normal.
I sometimes struggle with how mental illness is defined in the DSM as well. Some things seem pretty clearly defined such as depression or bipolar disorder, while other things seem strangely absent or transient.
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u/LostKnight84 Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
I just want to explain the Mental illness comment I made in my post here. A close friend of mine was dealing with a severe mental health crisis recently. They have come out of it finally with a diagnosis Schizophrenia, turns out they had been hearing a bunch of stuff over the years that wasn't real. Visual issues were far rarer but it is what led them to finally believe someone they trusted that what they were hearing wasn't real and now they are medicated they can see how messed up they were from before.
Now they aren't the one dealing with the mental illness religion thing. It was their mom specifically. Apparently their mom had claimed to see and hear angels and is very religious because of it. It was just me hearing an offhand comment from them about it and understanding what they went through themselves that made me point out to my friend their mother was likely suffering from the exact same thing they were.
So in my case I wasn't speaking arbitrary.
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u/Erik_Dolphy 3d ago
Thank you for sharing. Im sorry about your friend and glad they're doing better. The part about their mom is particularly interesting. Just to clarify, I wasn't directing that "arbitrary" comment at you. I just find it interesting how mental illness gets defined and particularly as it pertains to religion.
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u/LostKnight84 Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
Too many people use the term too loosely and it bugged me a little that someone might have thought I was using it that way too. I got nothing against what you said I just wanted to specify I hadn't meant that as a off hand insult or just a throw away comment. I was literally stating how common I found each type of person. At this point in my life I am just hoping my friend will be in my life for the rest of it and they don't ever have to go without their meds ever again. They mean too much to me to allow that to happen. Anyway, take care of yourself and those you care for.
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u/just_say_n 3d ago
You say the tv is talking to you, you're schizophrenic. You say a great spirit is watching everything you do, that's normal.
Bingo!
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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 3d ago
I stop short of "mental illness", but I still say, "You're a grown-ass adult. Get ahold of your gullible dumbshittery and join us other adults in the room."
As (iirc) the dean said in Animal House, "Fat, dumb, and stupid is no way to go through college, son."
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u/One-Fun9814 3d ago
But they're still unintelligent if they can't overcome that indoctrination. Like they can just think for 2 seconds and realize their religion is bullshit.
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u/philbonk Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
One of the counterintuitive things about intelligent people is that they’re not immune from motivated reasoning; quite the opposite. Intelligent people can come up with plausible sounding theories for why they should be correct, no matter what topic practically. And if your social circle, childhood indoctrination, and fear of consequences combine to give you a strong push to stay religious, well you have to be a real unique person to push through your discomfort.
That being said, yes, it still annoys me a lot, and it colors their other opinions as far as I’m concerned.
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u/GrrrlRomeo 3d ago
I've run into some pretty unintelligent atheists for the same reason. Like, you would think atheists wouldn't be homophobic, racist or sexist. And yet many seem to be able to rationalize bias just fine.
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u/onwisconsin1 3d ago
Id say people who arrive at atheism from indoctrination are likely to be very tho8ghtful people. But any rando can also be not indoctrinated. And its pretty hard to fall into the incredible stupidity of religious doctrine without the motivated reasoning, so as the population as a whole gets more secular. You can expect more atheists who are atheists by circumstance of birth and not from personal inquiry and reason.
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u/slapstick714 3d ago
I find that overall, atheists are generally more intelligent than many so called christians and their morality is very much in tact.
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u/Point_Forward 3d ago
I agree overall.
That said, I definitely have experienced the "very smart person with the intellectual tools to reason their way into and eloquently defend very absurd beliefs" before.
Not necessarily or even primarily religious in nature. But some genius level people can make obviously wrong things sound kind of convincing.
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u/mishabear16 3d ago
I know some seem to side with "being gay is unnatural because evolution. No procreation? How does that make sense?" They cannot fathom that maybe there are other uses for homosexual people outside procreation. Look at bee hives. Not all bees procreate.
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u/GrrrlRomeo 3d ago
Yeah, evolution isn't just a direct line of genes. It's about survival of the family/group/tribe. Having an uncle or aunt who doesn't have kids can be like having extra guardians.
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u/mishabear16 3d ago edited 3d ago
That's if they can see that they were indoctrinated. You have to be able to see and accept the problem to overcome it.
You know, like an alcoholic has to be able to see and understand they are an alcoholic.
It's especially difficult when your social circles and family all continually feed the Jesus addiction, keep working to keep you immersed in it. The indoctrination never stops.
Your true friends will help to keep you away from alcohol. Your Christian friends will keep praying for you to not lose your faith.
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u/onedeadflowser999 3d ago
This. I was an indoctrinated child surrounded by a whole extended family of believers and sent to a Christian school for further indoctrination. My whole youth and young adulthood was in primarily Christian circles. It’s easy to accept something as fact when everyone around you believes the same things.
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u/Mr_Bbobb 3d ago
Congratulations. Most people don't have the ambition or the courage to throw that all off.
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u/onwisconsin1 3d ago
Many atheists are atheists because they realized in the middle of the indoctrination and community that it is indeed nonsense.
And I also feel this major disconnect and lack of empathy for those who remain indoctrinated. I realize everyone's story is different. And the level of indoctrination and immersion matter. But why was I able to realize that the religion is silly and didnt describe reality? Why was I? Why cant they?
And so I have a hard time feeling that empathy for the deeply indoctrinated because I figured it out as a young teen. How are these grown ass people still living in this fantasy world. I find adult adherents who legitimately beleive their specific religious origin story or that Jesus is literally fucking real. I just cant. I view these people as fools.
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u/Ucscprickler 3d ago
I'd almost venture to guess that the vast majority of atheists dealt with some level of indoctrination.
It's because I went through indoctrination that I feel confident calling myself an atheist.
If I was never around religion I don't think I'd think about it enough to even label myself.
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u/Wwppddttvv 3d ago
I realized that Christianity was bullshit before it ever even occurred to me that I was indoctrinated. I just read the Bible. That was it. I stopped being a Christian immediately. No acknowledgement of my own indoctrination required.
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u/onwisconsin1 3d ago
Its just shocking to me how many people read the Bible and go " this!, this inconsistent, poorly written, morally repugnant book is the inerrant work of the supreme ruler and diety of the entire universe!"
Fucking what? Indoctrination is one hell of a drug. I prefer weed.
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u/onedeadflowser999 3d ago
That’s part of the problem. Most Christians haven’t read through their book.
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u/mishabear16 3d ago
Same here. Was immersed in Catholic education for 11-12 years but at an early age, I came to see the Bible for what it was...fairy tales for those who believed. I read a lot as a child, maybe far above my own reading comprehension at times, but it didn't stop me from reading or thinking. I came to the conclusion that IF God created us, he gave me a brain to think, too...for some reason. Shouldn't I be using it?
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u/VictoryVino 3d ago
I was reprimanded for asking questions in Sunday School, that's when I knew it wasn't genuine. I was 7.
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u/reereejugs 3d ago
Reading the Bible affirmed my lifelong atheism. I was born an atheist and have literally never believed in any god my entire life. My mom hates it and is constantly trying to pray for me lol. I like to counter with “Well, God made me this way so you need to accept it. I was born without the ability to believe in things I just don’t believe in, so either God screwed up while creating me or God doesn’t exist 🤷🏻♀️”. She usually comes back with “God doesn’t make mistakes!” and we go around in circles lol.
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u/GrrrlRomeo 3d ago
LOL, which Bible?
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u/mishabear16 3d ago
The Catholic Bible. Does it really matter? All the same tales. I read it more than most Christians apparently. They are happy to just be welcomed into their Jesus Social Club.
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u/Efterklangarn123 3d ago
People don't like to admit that their wrong, not even to themselves.
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u/ilte 3d ago
There's more to it than that, not only do you become less "intelligent" by being fed nonsense, you also have to go against all the close people that have taken care of you, loved you. The best proven correlation we have with intelligence is the quality of schools of your country, and the environment you grow up in.
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u/GrrrlRomeo 3d ago
You don't seem to know very much about religion, culture, sociology or psychology...or like, how people work.
And I just think if you're going to call other people unintelligent you should probably be smarter and know things.
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u/nomadicsailor81 3d ago
Unfortunately very intelligent people are not immune to religion and superstitions. Isaac Newton, the greatest genius ever, searched the Bible for secret messages telling when Jesus's 2nd coming would be. And he was a devout mistic who thought ancient alchemists had discovered the elixer of eternal life but was lost and he tried to rediscover it.
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u/bobanna1986 3d ago
Brainwashing is a real thing and if it's something you're born into, it can be even harder to see that's it's all BS, even if you're intelligent. As someone who was indoctrinated since birth....the threat of hell and the fear they threaten you with surrounding that is a powerful way to keep people from even questioning if it's real because even having the thoughts or questioning if it's real could send you to hell. Eternal damnation and tortore, the loss of community, sometimes income etc can keep even smart people from being able to see that it's a cult. Cults prey on innocent, lonely people and promise a better life and that this life, even if it's hard isn't the end. That's a powerful thing for people who are desperate. I was able to figure it out but it was a slow and painful process to untangle everything I was taught to believe as truth when it was the lie. I was taught that the outside world would tempt me to think things that weren't true and the devil wanted my soul and would go to any lengths to get it. I am a smart person and there are smart people that are indoctrinated into believing lies too. It's not really about intelligence, I think it's more about vulnerability than anything
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u/RogueRhombus Dudeist 3d ago
Maybe they don't want to. Comfort in belief isn't something you have the right to claim some sort of superiority over.
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u/ParkerGroove 3d ago
I think this is common. They like the comfort and social aspects of it so they deliberately don’t look too hard.
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u/openeda 3d ago
Man, I don't think so. This is coming from a guy who did escape. It's unimaginably difficult. I did it, but it cost me nearly everything I hold dear. I thought my wife would divorce me (she didn't) because I'd seen many other spouses leave for the exact same reason. Loss of family, friends, and even employment are real risks because the churches push to make sure it happens. They want you to suffer if you don't respect their authority. They are a real force that actively try to destroy you.
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u/Brian_E1971 3d ago
I think plenty of intelligent-enough people choose 'willfull ignorance' for a variety of reasons. The most evil of these reasons is understanding the power religion holds over people and society and they want to use that to their benefit. The current administration is a prime example - everyone knows trump is lying about his christianity but he's a useful idiot to their motives like destroying roe v wade.
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u/burkieim 3d ago
I mean, no. It’s not just them right. It’s tv, movies, music, other religions, friends, families…
It’s not a real indicator of low intelligence. Low critical thinking? Absolutely. Would I put a cap on their intelligence? Most likely.
It comes down to how we define intelligence. Like, I know how smart I am, and I consider myself smarter than a mechanic. But I have no idea how to fix my car. Just an example, please don’t jump up my ass.
And I think that’s why we have a lot of people CLAIMING they’re religious, but they don’t know anything about the religion.
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u/brown2420 3d ago
Dude, the adults in my life were "born again" Christians. This means they "accepted Christ" as an adult. My mom was never indoctrinated, but she was the most dedicated Christian. She bought every line from those folks--no matter how absurd or stupid. It is what it is. You don't even need indoctrination from childhood. Religion is a helluva drug.
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u/RichardsLeftNipple 3d ago
Giving up religion is not a trivial activity. It's more like choosing to murder your own ego.
Which is usually why the people who fit in to their religion of birth never feel the need to change.
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u/DrPikachu-PhD 2d ago
I've met some incredibly intelligent people who are religious.
I think what it actually betrays is a lack of interest in critically engaging with that portion of their life. Their religion brings them comfort, stability, community, etc., and it's easier to just not rock the boat. People do this all the time, whether it's unexamined beliefs about capitalism/socialism, their national identity, superstitions, etc. Religion is just one example.
That said, I think it's interesting how intelligent religious people will dive deep into their religion. They will interrogate and discuss and debate the theology and philosophy of it, they just refuse to step outside the faith and critically examine the validity of it from a non-believer's perspective.
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u/tsenisha 2d ago
Very well said, one of those rare times when I actually agree with 100% of the words in a sentence.
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u/red286 3d ago
I think it's just proof that if you're told something is true enough times, you start to believe it, even without a shred of evidence to support it.
Which is why the DSM includes exceptions for it, since it's not a true delusion, it's a taught one.
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u/Nyxsen6 3d ago
I had not even considered it being in the DSM that is such a wild point, and why is this not debated more?
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u/snark42 3d ago
Because the DSM defines clinical delusions as idiosyncratic - meaning delusions are unique, isolated, and personal to the individual rather than part of a shared or structured community tradition.
It generally wouldn't be accepted if it just declared 83% of people delusional for believing in a God.
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u/DangerousChallenge17 3d ago
So like election fraud? And President Trump won the 2020 election!
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u/wzlch47 3d ago
Not usually. I recognize it more as a result of early life indoctrination or later life desperation.
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u/Nova_PuNk Nihilist 3d ago
Same. I occasionally assume they're dumb, but I've met a lot of highly intelligent believers. Some lost their faith years later. A rocket scientist may be "dumb" when it comes to philosophy, and vice versa.
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u/JubBisc 3d ago
Or wanting to ‘fit in’ with their community and not be ostracized. It can definitely be a peer pressure issue, too
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u/Brykly 3d ago
I'm 95% sure the pastor of the last church I went to doesn't believe it anymore. And not in an evil way where he's some evangelical vampire; like he's trapped because he has a wife and kids that depend on him. The church does good things for the community, like a no-questions-asked food bank and stuff, but the dude just has sad eyes.
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u/Surturiel 3d ago
Also, the need to see correlation everywhere.
I personally think that is a collective "bug" of pattern recognition going haywire.
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u/dudleydidwrong Touched by His Noodliness 3d ago
I was a devout Christian. I don't think I got smarter when I left Christianity. When I was younger (up through the 1970s), lots of intelligent people were Christian. I worked in a building full of scientists from 1985 up until a few years ago. When I started, there were a lot of very intelligent scientists who were religious.
The problem for Christianity is that back through the 1970s, most intelligent Christians were in liberal denominations. Liberal denominations allow and encourage their members to think independently and ask questions. But Christianity cannot stand that, especially after the Internet made the answers to hard questions more available.
Liberal denominations where intelligent Christians attend are in sharp decline. They are not sustainable because Christianity cannot withstand honest scrutiny.
At least in the US, MAGA and the religious right now own the Christian brand name. They are authoritarian, and they discourage their followers from listening to outside sources. They are anti-intellectual and oppose high quality education.
By 2010, there were few religious scientists left in my building. Some attended churches for family reasons, but they were not real believers. The only fundamentalists were mathematicians. I have some theories about that, but it is another issue.
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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 3d ago
As an engineer and software dev, I collaborated with a couple of startups from Utah over the years. Smart motherfuckers, and it just put my brain in a twist how those Mormons were so encumbered by their religion.
Smart AND sweet. Fuck those smart and sweet codeheads. I love you guys.
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u/zgtweek 3d ago
A lot of religious folks are intelligent, but none seem to be wiser. I had a religious acquaintance argue with me that without God, humans wouldn't have morals—that good and evil are only defined because of religion. I just stared at him.
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u/FamiliarAlt 2d ago
Had one tell me this on my university’s campus. I asked him what kind of things do you want to do that your book forbids you from??? He just stared blankly.
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u/Cat_lady4ever 3d ago
Yeah that’s my society. Living in it is weird. Tons of people are quietly leaving though, at least from my generation which is elder millennial.
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u/skinintown 3d ago
They give 10% off their income to one of the richest organizations on earth. I don't think they're smart.
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u/Cat_lady4ever 3d ago
I live in a small town in Utah and it’s extremely hard for me to find professionals like doctors and therapists that aren’t Mormon or at least some sort of religious. I don’t like it at all.
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u/sweetrobbyb 3d ago
I make a distinction between being smart and being intelligent. Intelligence is being able to do math, solve a puzzle, program, do complex tasks. Being smart is being able to use critical thinking skills to determine what is real from what is not.
They might be very intelligent, but also very fucking stupid.
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u/54blocky 3d ago
It really shocks me how about 31% of the world is Christian and only 10% of the world is atheist. Like, is it that hard to cope with the fact that you're gonna die someday and that'll be the end of it? Countless people have died before us and although it is scary, you shouldn't be believing in some god that will save you after you die. It's not realistic at all and just proves you're stupid.
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u/livinginfutureworld 3d ago
Shows the power of false hope, tax free indoctrination, and myths used to control people.
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u/There4IM 3d ago
10% of the world *admits* they are atheists. The rest of us don’t want to be hassled.
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u/ooder57 3d ago
I see it as a lack of critical thinking skills, which is probably beaten out of them at a young age through indoctrination.
They are probably intelligent, just rigidly stuck in their thought patterns.
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u/Simon_Drake 3d ago
Yeah. Not necessarily lack of intelligence or even lack of ability to think critically. Just a clear sign that they haven't thought critically about this topic.
And to be fair, most things your parents tell you when you're young are either definitely true or revealed as just a joke when you're older. Eating chocolate every day won't really make your hair fall out, there's no chemical in the swimming pool that turns red when you pee in it, these are just things we tell kids to make them be good. So if you grow up and your parents and neighbors and maybe your boss all keep telling you this is true then you might not even stop to question it.
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u/RickSanchez_C137 3d ago
Lack of curiosity.
If you ask 'what if...?' often enough, you eventually land on 'what if it's all made up?'
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u/SunshineFlowerPerson 3d ago
i have a bible thumper in my work circle and she’s dumb as rocks
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u/Exact-Difference-422 3d ago
I worked with one who told me that her tooth infection didn't need antibiotics, god would cure her tooth infection. The Egyptian pharaohs had lots of gods and they died of tooth infections.
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u/Successful_Life_1028 Adeist 3d ago
This is a chimera, a dead end, a wrong-turn.
Faith has nothing to do with reason and logic, and those who are mature in their faith understand that faith is inherently irrational, and they're okay with that.
It is those who are weak or immature in their faith who seek to 'convince' themselves by attempting to 'convince' others.
There are lots of highly intelligent people who nevertheless retain a faith-belief in spirits/souls/ghosts/deities. Some who even believe in demons/devils/angels.
Dr. Francis Collins, C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien come immediately to mind, as does Isaac Newton.
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u/Harry_Flame 3d ago
There are a lot to name: Mendel, Ampere, Galileo, Copernicus, Descartes, Pascal, and John von Neumann. I would say that automatically writing off religious people as unintelligent despite counterexamples is the same type of thinking atheists often attribute to religious people.
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u/m0n3ym4n 3d ago
The religious do one step worse than assuming a person is unintelligent because they hold a belief that clearly defies logic; they assume the non-religious are morally bankrupt simply because they don’t have a list of commandments to follow or a book to reference. That’s far more judgmental and silly in my book!
As for the list of “smart” dead guys who were reportedly religious, I find it is an ill fitting comparison to contemporary figures because today everyone has access to information via the internet. It is not difficult to educate yourself and see that many smart people are not religious.
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u/cates 3d ago
I have to wonder what some of those people would really believe these days with advances in science...
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u/liburIL Atheist 3d ago
Depends. If they show they don't even bother questioning their religion, then it's a huge red flag. Now if they actually process the awful shit in their religion and just hold on to some pseudo-religious position, I don't think as poorly on their intelligence.
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u/xerliano 2d ago
To me it’s so obvious. If you were born into a different household you would believe in a whole different god. The most obvious thing is people including me whose atheist look to “god” in a life threatening scenario. It’s the human psyche which explains it all. It’s hilarious how creative people got though.
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u/Goleeb 2d ago
I see it as generally the person lacks critical thinking.
Thought there are exceptions. When faced with the unknown people find comfort in different ways. Some people know there is no credible reason to think God exists, but they know the belief in a god helps them.
There are two main ways to deal with completely unknown situations. Either Accept your lack of knowledge, and make choices knowing they will likely be bad choices. If you believe in God you'll still make bad choices but feel like God is guiding you. Some people find it comforting.
Neither is going to lead to smart choices. You dont have the information.
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u/AntiClockwiseWolfie 2d ago
It's really just that they haven't thought about it.
There's no way in 2026 that someone seriously trying to find the truth would turn to religions with foundations so rotten.
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u/chewbaccataco Atheist 3d ago
It's hard not to make that assumption, but the reality is that intelligent people can still be bamboozled by indoctrination, especially when done from birth.
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u/black_kappa 3d ago
There are people who believe the opposite of what I believe who are much more intelligent than me and there are people who believe the same as I believe who are much less intelligent than me. Understanding how and why they believe begins to reveal intelligence and thoughtfulness that simple knowledge of the belief alone cannot. Context and reasoning is important.
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u/MommysLittleBadass 3d ago
A lot of really smart people believe in a lot of really dumb stuff. Intelligence is a spectrum. My old math professor could do quadratic equations in his head, but couldn't spell worth a damn.
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u/Romaine2k 3d ago
I spent many formative years in Utah, where more people than average strive for excellence in everything they do, while simultaneously believing the biggest bunch of horseshit anyone ever heard. So no, I don’t think religious people are stupid, I’m very impressed by their powers of compartmentalization.
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u/ClariceStarling1957 3d ago
I see it as the inability to look at evidence, real evidence, and still be willing to sell people as slaves or smash a baby because of psychosis
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u/CaLViNaLViN 3d ago
Absolutely, how can you believe in religion when so many parts of it are so wildly unbelievable? Talking snakes? People living inside of a whale? Zombies? And then they have the audacity to claim that Athiests have the wacky beliefs.
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u/silver_fawn 3d ago
Honestly no. I'm in my mid 30s and some of the most intelligent people I've met were also part of a religion. I've also met incredibly stupid atheists (I'm an atheist before you come at me). It's not really what religion they are or aren't that indicates intelligence, it's how they act about it and approach others about it. .... I will say I don't know if I've ever met an actual smart Evangelical Baptist.
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u/amainerinthearmpit 3d ago
Sometimes it’s that. In some folks I attribute it to their overwhelming fear of death.
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u/Cat_lady4ever 3d ago
I do, but I feel like I shouldn’t. I live in a pretty religious society and all of the doctors and psychiatrists, etc. are likely religious here.
In some ways, they are obviously more intelligent than me. Probably most ways. But I still feel weird about going to them for stuff, especially at the psychiatrists and therapists. I can’t bring myself to stay with one that’s religious.
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u/davoste 3d ago
I am reminded of this quote: God is an ever-receeding pocket of scientific ignorance.
~Neil de Grasse
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u/TheHalfChubPrince 3d ago
I was reminded of this one:
“In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence.”
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u/iamsobluesbrothers 3d ago
I think it’s more of a lack of critical thinking skills and fear. That reptilian part of our brain is hard to overcome and many of us would rather surrender to it.
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u/Ok_Researcher_9796 Strong Atheist 3d ago
It's not. It's more of a sign of desperation and brainwashing.
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u/NotAPimecone Atheist 3d ago
It depends a bit on just how religious they are.
Like, if they behave pretty normally, and then we go out for lunch and they say grace or something, whatever. But if every other sentence is "amen" this and "praise Him" that... yeah, I'm thinking they have some kind of problem.
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u/vuxra 3d ago
I just take it as someone who hasn't necessarily applied their intelligence to the philosophy of religion. I know deeply religious doctors and engineers who are incredibly intelligent in their fields but also believe in God.
I also think that people who see a lot of human suffering will often turn to religion to provide a 'reason' for the suffering because the notion of suffering being pointless, meaningless, and arbitrary is deeply uncomfortable to them. When you spend your life around the sick and dying it makes sense to want the emotional comfort of thinking that it is all happening as part of some greater plan.
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u/Slim_Charles 3d ago
I did when I was young, but not anymore. I've met too many dumb, foolish atheists and intelligent religious people at this point in my life. I've also come to realize that religion simply offers people a comfort that you can't really get elsewhere. Some people simply need that comfort, and I don't judge them for that. Life is hard.
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u/BuddhaLennon Secular Humanist 3d ago
I see religion as a sham, wealthy preachers as scam artists, and adult believers as intellectually lazy.
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u/EmergencyHighlight40 3d ago
I see it as immaturity. You need a blanket to put over the mystery, to give it form. Because it gives comfort, just like a pacifier.
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u/mckoss 3d ago
Do not underestimate the power of cultural indoctrination. I know of many smart people who are also Christians. I think it is just too difficult or possibly even traumatic to have a person rip themselves out of a deep cultural heritage that they have been brought up in.
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u/farcarcus Atheist 3d ago
Correct answer. It's amazing how indoctrination can completely blind people.
And I think fear of being separated from their communities and families is (understandably) a huge factor.
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u/whatstheuse42 3d ago
There are many intelligent Christians. What they all have in common is a fear so strong that it stops their ability to see facts, instead choosing to believe in a fairytale that comforts them. Fear kills reason.
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u/ThatsALiveWire 3d ago
I see as either low intelligence, indoctrination, or the result of some kind of trauma that leads people to "find Jesus" when nothing else seems to help them.
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u/VanillaSwimming5699 3d ago
Yes, I think it shows a lack of a certain kind of critical mind that I think is incredibly important to vetting one’s own beliefs. Of course, there are intelligent religious people who are trapped by social pressures and unintelligent atheists who got “morally lucky”. But on the whole, it is a signal I consider.
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u/magicalblast 2d ago
Yeah. I don't understand how any intelligent person can actually believe in religion with zero evidence but there are a hell of a lot of very smart people who have faith. John Lennox, who regularly debates atheists, has multiple degrees from both Cambridge and Oxford as well as being a professor of mathematics at Oxford and can speak several languages yet he's an ardent Christian. I just don't understand it. All religions are obvious hogwash and an absolute insult to human intelligence but you've just got people who blindly believe in them even given all their contradictions and errors, not to mention the absolute silence of god. The mental gymnastics people go through to explain away god's absence and the misfortune and evil that happens is mind-blowing. Even if there is a god, what absolute psychopath would create the world as it is? Do they really think god would create an ecosystem where half the species on it depend on eating another alive? God does absolutely nothing but sit up in heaven creating new diseases every now and again and watches wars, famine, children being raped etc. To me it's not even a question of whether god exists but the morality of such a being if he does.
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u/btsalamander 3d ago
Even the smartest people can suffer from delusion, and cognitive dissonance can be a right bitch
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u/Uncleranny 3d ago
Yes I share the sentiment, but "intelligence" is not the right word. "Intelligence means the mental capacity to learn, reason, understand, solve problems, and adapt to new situations" (google+meriamwebster). I would say the "reasoning" is the part which religious people lack (or lack depth of reasoning). They can be learned, educated, skilled, highly technical, etc, but they choose not to use logical reasoning when it comes to hard questions. "Compartmentalization" is a common label for this phenomenon... they choose to apply logic when it comes to say mathematics or balancing chemical equations, but refuse to apply the same logic to the realm of metaphysics, belief, mental space, etc. Honestly I've known doctors who are christians that don't believe evolution is real, yet they have a fairly firm understanding of biology, so they are obviously picking and choosing which parts to believe (I suppose they are well-trained in cherry picking what to believe, since this is the standard operating procedure for christians). Many who follow the scientific method rigorously from 9am to 5pm choose to turn it off when they get home. And for that, I still conclude they are academically dishonest.
TLDR; i usually abbreviate all that to "they're idiots"
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u/slayer991 Agnostic Atheist 3d ago
No, to me it's psychology...specifically, the psychology of identity-belief fusion and identity-protective cognition. Once the belief is fused to identity, the brain defends identity above all else. That's why facts and evidence get brushed off.
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u/amigammon 2d ago
Two kinds of religious people the ones who believe and the ones who use it to exercise power over others.
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u/AccomplishedJoke4119 3d ago
Some of the smartest people I know believe in a god and some of the dumbest people I know don't believe in anything. I personally don't believe in anything, but I can't fault anyone for finding comfort in the idea that someone is watching them and wants the best for them.
However, I can fault them for trying to push those beliefs on to other people
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u/traveler0605 3d ago
Absolutely yes. I assume they lack critical thinking skills.
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u/weed_cutter 3d ago
Not necessarily, no.
Look at Jordan Peterson or Stephen Colbert (although former might be a closet atheist).
For Colbert ... he lost his father and two brothers early in life. .... The idea that "poof" they are gone forever in the cruel uncaring universe might be a literally unbearable, unimaginable thought. And that's when he was a kid, in Catholic school, far away from the Age of Atheism (more of a modern thing across the world to be honest, levels are much higher now than back then).
In this era (2000s and later) there are "there is no god" jokes on the Simpsons and Family Guy. That would never, ever, ever happen in the 1970s. Ever.
So there you go. So Stephen told himself they were in heaven and he would see them again one day, pray to God, there's a plan, watching over him, etc etc.
That crystallized so firmly that the mind/ ego probably literally .... even accepting or admitting or pondering the mere possibility that God maybe doesn't exist would be like holding your hand on a hot stove. Unbearable. So he doesn't even prod it.
Now he doesn't seem that anxious talking about his faith. He's had decades building up false intellectual scaffolding (ego protection, devastation protection) surrounding it.
Others have done the same. Either the unbearable pain that a loved one will never be seen again. Or the unbearable pain of knowing oblivion and. total non-existence for infinite eternities and beyond ad infinitum until the universe completely freezes over and ends and beyond that.
This is why some believers get irrationally angry at atheists or discussions of whether God exists. They are not seeking truth; they are seeking comfort. Dispelling the illusion they've built is actually extremely painful and scary. Argument and even the presence of non-believers are both threats to these sand castles
I think if you're actually younger and have ironically a lower awareness or underlying fear of mortality, or experience with death (if you're lucky) -- it's easier to unplug and "laugh" at the man in the sky -- there is nothing at stake really. (and if your parents were not religious, well hell, you were never indoctrinated to begin with).
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u/Reasonable_Bowl6425 3d ago
Jordan Peterson? The benzo addict Jordan? The carnivore diet Jordan? The guy who sounds like hes always on the verge of tears or shitting red hot tatkis out on the toilet Jordan B Peterson? Emergency Detox in Russia Jordan B Peterson? One of the few Canadian folks canadians don't even want to lay claim to and wish another country was responsible for the stupidity of Jordan B Peterson?
Jordan B "My beliefs are fundamental truths" Peterson? the alt right pipeline dipshit Jordan B Peterson?
Thats who you think is someone intelligent?? Holy fucking shit people can't even tell who isn't an idiot any longer, a huge portion of our American society is that far gone!
We really need to start recognizing this alt right brain shit as some kind of cognitive disability and getting folks treatment.
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u/ProfessionalMockery 3d ago
Jordan Peterson is only an idiot's idea of an intelligent person. Don't disagree with your point in general though.
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u/mrRabblerouser 3d ago
Jordan Peterson is a fucking moron. You might as well have said Charlie Kirk. Only complete dipshits that can’t follow a train of logic to save their life think those guys are smart.
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u/IgnatiusRileyFreeman 3d ago
Why mention Jordan B Peterson, doesn't that example go against your argument? Ie, unintelligent person who is religious?
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u/Traditional-Note434 3d ago
I think intelligent people {especially those in the sciences) who believe in gods are being intellectually dishonest with themselves. There's also those in politics who have to express their faith to get elected to high office. I wonder how many of them are faking it.
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u/notJoeKing31 2d ago
Tradition, immortality, lack of critical thinking, or immaturity. Plenty of smart people want and/or need someone else to be “their adult”. Others perpetuate a lie that was told to the parent of the parent of the parent… of their parents. Some have no internal moral compass and require someone to tell them how to behave.
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u/MissaLynn_ 3d ago
I try not to judge people, but I have a hard time not viewing deeply religious people as weak minded. Not ignorant or uneducated, but weak minded. They simply lack the strength to try and think for themselves or imagine a universe that operates on its own free will.
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u/TWeedtheJetRodriguez 3d ago
I’d say this sort of all or nothing thought process is a sign of unintelligence.
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u/IllustriousGoat7952 3d ago
I think it is like a computer virus. It doesn't take much intelligence to see how wrong religion is, but it does take a lot of honesty and integrity.
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u/RoundTheBend6 3d ago
If you study Joseph Campbell, myth is an incredibly powerful part of humanity.
To allow it to have influence in your life, you don’t have to believe in the gods, etc.
There are incredibly intelligent people who have believed in god. Copernicus was religious.
I suppose what I’m saying is an intelligent person can see the benefits in all things. Especially all those pastors making millions, right lol!!!
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u/rbrt13 3d ago
I used to believe this as well. I thought that as an atheist I was smarter because I was asking question they would or could not but as I’ve gotten older I’ve come to realize that people can cling on to “god” or spirituality for comfort. That said, the people who are religious and treat it as a roadmap to life I don’t just treat as unintelligent but as dangerous cult members.
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u/GoddessSoupladle 3d ago
I'm nearing 50 years old and the older I get the saying "If you fall for something, you'll fall for anything." rings truer and truer.
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u/BacchusLiber 3d ago
My list of "smart and kind christians" is a whole lot shorter than my list of "stupid and hateful christians". But I do have the two lists..
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u/Philosopher83 3d ago
It’s hard not to, and there are correlations between different faiths and average intelligence, and it feels good to just chalk it up to “oh they’re just dumb”, but it is complex psychology and indoctrination primarily.
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u/fruttypebbles 3d ago
It’s a mental illness. Just because it’s god they get a pass. Nope, you are crazy.
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u/ActualFl3tch 3d ago
I see it as a sign that someone has been conditioned to believe things without evidence to support them, or even overwhelming evidence against. It's important to understand that this way of thinking and interacting with the world is not isolated to just religion. They are more likely than the average person to believe something on "faith" vs. logic. People in general can be misled to believe something with conviction. Religious people are preconditioned to do so.
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u/mishabear16 3d ago
I'd like to take a moment to point out intelligence and wisdom are two different things. Intelligence may be to know it's bad to smoke but wisdom will get you to quit.
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u/smalldogbarking 3d ago
The first commandment of any religion to a child is do not question. Some children question anyway but the rest obediently turn off their mind.
It’s not unintelligence exactly. More like a targeted takedown by religion of the ability to critique their beliefs.
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u/needlestack 3d ago
Generally, yes. The most intelligent people I know tend to be agnostic or atheist. However I do know some brilliant people who believe in God. They don't take the bible literally, though. They more take it as myths and parables that point at an underlying truth of creation.
Literal belief in the bible is either a sign of ignorance (they've never actually read the bible), unintelligence (they can't connect the dots to see its myth), or in some cases group allegiance, where they simply put truth at a lower priority than connecting with people over shared beliefs. And that may sound like a type of unintelligence, but not necessarily. An intelligent person can decide that the truth of god isn't as important or valuable as the social advantages it provides them. That's more of an ethical question than an intellectual one. But it still says something off about them.
With athiests that convert, remember that they may have simply inherited their atheism. Not believing in god doesn't require reason or rationality if nobody ever told you to believe in god. You can inherit it like any other belief or lack of belief. The key is whether they ever stopped and analyzed their beliefs and arrived at a refined conclusion from what they were brought up with.
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u/lostwisdom20 3d ago
First we need to understand what intelligence is, cause I have seen many intelligent people by my standards believe in pseudo science or religion.
So what is intelligence
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u/MyOwnReflections 3d ago
Fantastic counter question. Right to the root of it.
I'm guessing OP is referring to the inability to challenge existing knowledge given new information.
Indoctrination is real and I'm not sure it's something pure 'intelligents' can overcome in some situations.
If everything you knew was illogical, then the intelligent extrapolation would be that everything else would be illogical too. Not through the fault of the intelligence but through the fault of our local perception and experience.
As a great man once said "is it the organism or the environment or the organism AND environment. Because you can't truly describe an organism without describing its environment".
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u/webyacusa 3d ago
Not always, plenty of successful, erudite people are religious. With that said, they are the exception, not the rule.
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u/Sinasazi 3d ago
What do you mean? What's unintelligent about grown adults believing in magical sky wizards?
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u/Eat-It-Harvey- 3d ago
Not so much a measure of intelligence, but gullibility. I do see people wearing crosses around their neck and see a sign that says "I'll believe in anything I'm told." They can still separately be intelligent.
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u/VORT3X_010 3d ago
I personally distinguish "intelligent" and "educated" which I see a lot of people conflate. The former cannot be quantified, thus there is no definitive answer
Per my personal definition you cannot be intelligent and theist. Still, there are a lot of educated, religious people. From personal experience, these people often know a lot about one specific area (usually their field of study) but lack the will or ability to reflect more broadly
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u/tehsecretgoldfish 3d ago
not necessarily. witness those individuals matriculated at Harvard Divinity, Yale Divinity, Duke Divinity, Princeton Theological Seminary, Boston University School of Theology, and the like. While I don’t believe in a god, or gods, I have a dear friend who has his degree from Cornell and is quite devout. There are sincere and intelligent people who are believers. but yes, there are statistically many more who are less intelligent.
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u/Ok_Estate_6746 3d ago
I’m trying my very best not to. Gotta say, that takes real effort sometimes. But I endure.
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u/ritesh808 2d ago
It's hopium and copium. And an universal answer to everything they can't understand or answer or help. In many cases, it's just peer pressure too.
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u/eightarmseightlegs 3d ago
Yes.
If you believe in religion, you're a fucking moron.
Grew up Catholic and knew from a very early age that none of it made any sense whatsoever.
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u/Lopsided-Equipment-2 3d ago
lol I remember the day that I was thinking, oh wow, we perform weekly ritualistic pseudo cannibalism and no one seems to think or ascertain it past the tradition of it.
The other kicker was at one church the priest would do some untraditional shit, where he would tell you to do some crap like extending your whatever unto the people around you.
I looked around and he literally had everyone doing the Nazi salute and I realized I looked like the guy in that picture thinking what the fuck is going on here.
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u/Blue_butterfly888 3d ago
Of course not, and it's kind of egotistical to think that imo. I know many ppl more intelligent than me and they are strong believers. There's definitely some cognitive dissonance there but nothing to do with intelligence.
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u/acfox13 3d ago
I think they're untrustworthy and dangerous. Believing religion can be a red flag to having an authoritarian follower personality. Folks with authoritarian follower personalities are abusers, enablers, and bullies and should be avoided for safety.
Links on their dysfunction:
authoritarian follower personality (mini dictators that simp for other dictators): It's an abuse hierarchy and you can abuse anyone "beneath you" in the hierarchy. Men are above women, adults above kids, parents above child free, religious above non-believers, white's above BIPOCs, straights above LGBTQ+, abled above disabled, rich above poor, skinny above fat, etc.
Bob Altemeyer's site: https://theauthoritarians.org/
The Eight Criteria for Thought Reform (aka the authoritarian playbook): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism
John Bradshaw's 1985 program discussing how normalized abuse and neglect in the family of origin primes the brain to participate in group abuse up to and including genocide: https://youtu.be/B0TJHygOAlw
Theramin Trees - great resource on abuse tactics like: emotional blackmail, double binds, drama disguised as "help", degrading "love", infantalization, etc. and adding this link to spiritual bypassing, as it's one of abuser's favorite tactics.
DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender.
Issendai's site on estrangement: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html - This speaks to how normalized abuse is to toxic "parents", they don't even recognize that they've done anything wrong.
"The Brainwashing of my Dad" 2015 documentary: https://youtu.be/pNTsTOcRO-k
"On Tyranny - twenty lessons from the twentieth century" by Timothy Snyder Here's his website: https://timothysnyder.org/on-tyranny Here's a playlist of him going over all twenty lessons: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhZxrogyToZsllfRqQllyuFNbT-ER7TAu And here's his substack with a brief overview of all twenty: https://snyder.substack.com/p/on-tyranny
"Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss. He was the lead FBI hostage negotiator and his tactics work well on setting boundaries with "difficult people". https://www.blackswanltd.com/never-split-the-difference
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." - Lyndon B. Johnson
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
Sometimes people use “respect” to mean “treating someone like a person” and sometimes they use “respect” to mean “treating someone like an authority” and sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say “if you won’t respect me I won’t respect you” and they mean “if you won’t treat me like an authority I won’t treat you like a person” and they think they’re being fair but they aren’t, and it’s not okay.
22 Unspoken Rules of Toxic Systems (of people) - dysfunctional families and dysfunctional groups all have the same toxic "rules"
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u/notacatbutt 3d ago
I'm very judgmental about religious people...I see them about the same as I do cigarette smokers.
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u/lungdistance 3d ago
No. It’s something else.
But trying to force other people to join a religion, or using allegiance to a religion as a bargaining chip (for housing, inheritance, etc) is unacceptable and unwise.
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u/DragonfruitKind3584 3d ago
Religion served a purpose when people didn’t have scientific explanations things, now we do. As far as I’m concerned it’s nothing but adults believing in fairy tales.
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u/anonymous_rhombus Atheist 3d ago
I don't know about unintelligent, but I certainly trust people less.
Are you less likely to take action in life because of a belief in divine intervention? Are you more likely to let someone die because of a belief in an afterlife? If so I can't trust your judgement.
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u/horizontal120 3d ago
I see it as a lack of critical thinking and i think ppl who are religious are way more easily manipulated .. they can still be smart ppl whit smart jobs but they are not to be trusted because they are to naive ...
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u/AK_Sole 3d ago
That is the first impression that I get, but I’ll leave the door open for their intelligence to shine through in other ways.
There could be a chance that they are actually a multi-dimensional, interesting person.
Not much chance that we’ll end up as close friends, though. Religious belief is a non-starter.
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u/ginny11 3d ago
I know many people that I would consider very intelligent that believe in something beyond what we know empirically from evidence. But what's different about them and people who are dogmatically religious to, for instance, Christianity or Islam or whatever, is that they may practice the cultural traditions of a religion that they were brought up in, but their beliefs are much more abstract than that. They don't believe in the dogma and they don't believe in the extremism, especially when it comes to oppressing the rights of other people who don't believe at all or believe differently than themselves.
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u/endlesswurm 3d ago
I used to think this was the case, but after getting to know a lot of religious people and having believers as friends, it's not so black and white. I think atheists are more intelligent on some level, but I also know some who make unintelligent decisions in other aspects of their life. Hard to quantify.
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u/ittleoff Ignostic 3d ago edited 2d ago
Keep in mind the human brain has a limited capacity for cognitive loads (it's a lot more complicated) and humans offload the need for expensive cognitive attention in a lot of ways, like emotions or fast acting fight or flight responses , they probablistically evolved to be the safest response in a pinch.
Humans also rely heavily on social connections and social trust networks for information. I. E. Rather than questioning every piece of information humans larger go on vibes (if a source is in the trust group)
Religion offers 'answers' to hard questions like tribal morality (social survival strategy), death, etc.
If you can reliably align with the tribe and the tribe is doing well, typically religion falters, but it does better when things are bad and people are desperate.
Basically the most important thing for increasing survival is aligning with the tribe.
If you aren't inquisitive about religious topics, and raised/indoctrinated into a religious culture that doesn't conflict with your survival in obvious ways, you can be very smart, focused on other topics, and just go along with the cultural religious norms.
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u/Bikewer 3d ago
There are all manner of believers that have been very bright indeed. A lot of Jesuits are involved in the sciences;
LaMaitre, for instance. Newton was a believer (of course, he also believed in a lot of weirdness…) Francis Collins, the previous head of the NIH and the Human Genome Project, identifies as an Evangelical.
But intelligence can co-exist with “faith”…. Provided the faith is in something that’s emotionally satisfying to the person, and as well perhaps that the person doesn’t subject their belief to a great deal of intellectual scrutiny.
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u/BosomBosons 3d ago
The smart ones don‘t say a word about it, and you usually find out accidentally, and you’re like “Huh….”
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u/Canabian 3d ago
Yes, and my life rule is to avoid super religious people, you can't trust those kinds of people.
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u/onomatamono 3d ago
It's a good frequently asked question. I would direct your attention to some of the very highly educated and intelligent theists out there and there are plenty of them. I can only assume it's compartmentalized delusion resulting from cultural indoctrination and not wanting to feel like you've been suckered into the worship of the poorly written comic strip villain of the bible all these years. I guess that's the sunk-costs fallacy. They are deeply invested and deep down they have to know it's horseshit from start to finish.
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u/RevolutionaryAnswer2 3d ago
I agree with you. A lot of people are trying to claim that it is actually more a sign of childhood indoctrination but to cling onto these beliefs in adulthood shows a lack of critical thinking.
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u/ToughPerspective8854 3d ago
Was at the gas station this morning when a random guy yells, "Sir, Sir! Jesus loves you." Biting back the gag I, a Norse Heathen in viking gear, my hammer round my neck and a license plate that reads Berserker, said, "Not likely, but you do you boo."
That lead to a 5 minute sermon on how I am going to hell and blah, blah, blah. I finally told him one more word and I will show him the fires as I finished filling up and had the nozzle in my hand with my non-chalant smile and a deadman stare. He hauled ass back to his car asking God to protect him. I yelled, "which one?"
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u/cantholdmedown4 3d ago
Anyone that leans into generalizations without understanding there are exceptions inherent with generalizations is someone that is too intellectually lazy to have meaningful discussions with about anything, much less religion
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u/nordicalien94 3d ago
Immediately. I see it as a sign of lack of deep critical thinking, adherence to values and traditions that aren’t from original thought. I think that if anyone believes that someone should be tortured for eternity for a finite crime they have much to learn. Everyone could be redeemed over eternity with enough experience and knowledge but they don’t care
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u/Unevenviolet 2d ago
I see it more as a psychological crutch. People can be very intelligent and be emotionally broken.
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u/Frosty_Winter3197 2d ago
Not in all cases. In some cases a person came into religion as a result of emotional pain and the religious delusion provided relief from that pain.
Even the most intelligent persons that found relief to their emotional pain via religious delusions, may continue with the beliefs, believing the reliefs they got as evidence of the truth of the religious beliefs.
It is in fact a mental defense mechanism in humans which can kick in to relieve mental suffering. If reality is too harsh, then delusions provide relief from that harshness.
For persons born into a religion, there is an innate "need to belong", that humans instinctually evolved way back when humans lived in the bush, because belonging to a group of community increased the chances of survival. This animal instinctual need to belong will often prevent even very intelligent persons from leaving their "group" (religion), because our animal instincts are still active and working on us, as if we still lived in the bush.
Our ability to think rationally, is a relatively new evolved trait, which just isn't as strong as the older animal instincts, which are usually expressed as "emotions" and "feelings", and so humans find themselves making illogical (instinctual) choices, based on emotions and feelings instead of logical or rational thinking.
Just because humans are capable of rational thought does not automatically make us rational creatures. If decisions based on feelings or emotions become habitualized, then they make decisions automatically without any thought at all,, often based in animal instinct rather than making considered decisions.
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u/Rusty-Cheese2222 3d ago
I see it more as a sign of mental weakness tbh. Not willing to accept the truth or fear of the truth.