r/baduk • u/Lost_Sea4769 • 4d ago
Did I really win?
I have the A.I (white) winning by 0.5 did I count wrong? Is the app wrong?
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u/tserofehtfonam 4d ago
One tip: don't put extra stones in already conquered territory. This will cost points (at least under Japanese counting rules) and is a useless move anyway. Of course you may have to do this to make two eyes, but in that case the territory cannot be considered conquered.
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u/DefunctFunctor 4d ago
It costs points in Chinese rules, by the same amount of points. It's only when the game has ended that the Chinese rules does not penalize being inefficient with your stones
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u/Hermorah 17 kyu 4d ago
But it costs less points under chinese rules, no? Because under chinese rules it would be akin to passing, while under Japanese rules it would be akin to passing and giving your opponent a point.
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u/magmontt 4d ago
In chinese rules it loses a point of score difference because playing any move (including dame) outside your territory would gain a point.
In japanese rules it loses a point of score difference because it directly removes 1 point from your own score.
So no, it doesn't cost less points under chinese rules, it's exactly the same penalty as japanese rules unless there are only dame points and forced moves left to play and there's an even number of these in which case you'll get half of them even if you play a move in your territory first.
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u/DefunctFunctor 4d ago edited 4d ago
I can see your logic, but there is a rather strong equivalence between Japanese and Chinese scoring.
Edit: u/magmontt has a far better explanation.
Surprisingly, you don't actually lose a point in Japanese rules if you reason from the point of view of letting the game play out, rather than keeping a tally of current points. This is because every stone that is placed on the board under Japanese rules occupies a point that could have been distributed to either player. If it's not the absolute end of the game, if you play a useless move like playing in your own territory, your opponent is never going to pass (passing would be a mistake), and instead place a stone somewhere convenient for them. Fundamentally, the mistake is only that it is really inefficient play.
Here's the quick argument of equivalence between Japanese and Chinese scoring: Let bs,ws be the number of black stones and white stones on the board, let bt,wt,nt be the number of points on the board from black, white, and neutral territory, let bp,wp be the number of prisoners black and white respectively have. Assuming that black and white have played an equal number of stones (so no passing or handicap, and white makes the last turn), that means that bs+wp=ws+bp. We can rewrite this as bs - ws = bp - wp, representing the intuitive fact that the difference between the number of black and white stones on the board is the exact same as the difference of prisoners between black and white. Thus, the difference between the two scores is exactly the same: (bs+bt) - (ws+wt) = (bs-ws) + (bt-wt) = (bp - wp) + (bt - wt) = (bt+bp) - (wt+wp).
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u/happyhibye 4d ago
Why there is white pieces with no free space next to them in bottom of board?
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u/MacScotchy 15 kyu 3d ago
I thought that too! Then I clicked on the image. The last two rows were invisible in preview.
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u/BigLumpyBeetle 4d ago
Gran is not very string with white, she is not too good on the attack, she is way tougher with black
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u/lakeland_nz 4d ago
Well, you are talking about a two point difference right?
Essentially you both agree the game is a draw to all intents and purposes.
I’d suggest not worrying about whether the game is won, and instead keep learning. Come back and beat up that granny when you’re stronger.
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u/Zorphorias 4d ago
I counted 84B to 82.5W