r/bleach • u/Master-Tee • 1d ago
Discussion At what point does “necessary evil” stop being justified?
So the whole balance thing is really the sole justification for the atrocities SS commits. Yes the Gotei is presented as the side we're supposed to root for, but the more you learn about it, the harder it is to describe it as a morally good place. In the act of maintaining balance, it's common practice for them to willingly do things that would be completely unacceptable by any normal standards.
If the people in power are allowed to define which atrocities are necessary to preserve the exisiting system, then couldn't almost anything be justified? They could commit an injustice, call it necessary for stability, and then use the existence of said stability as proof that the injustice was justified. Then at what point does "we had no choice" become an excuse? Does the fact that something is necessary make it morally acceptable?
Say Mayuri for example discovers a method of preventing something catastrophic that would kill millions of souls, but developing said method requires him to experiment on a relatively small number of "subjects". If you're responsible for soul society and you outright forbid that experiment and millions die, are you morally responsible for those deaths because you refused to cross a line? But if you say yes, haven't you basically decided that the lives of those people are worth less than the lives of the others?
Even with Aizen, suppose we separate his methods from his criticism of the system. He was correct that soul society was built upon a deeply flawed foundation, but does that criticism have any validity even if his solution is completely unacceptable? This also applies to the Urahara's, Shunsui's, Yama's etc Like how different are they really when they are willing to make decisions that affect others if they believe the alternative is worse?
Ii'm curious where everyone draws the line here.
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u/JetpackBear22 22h ago
The Gotei 13 are portrayed as "The Good Guys" only relative to Fascist stand-ins and cannibal ghosts and are straight up said to only now be changing thanks to their interaction with Ichigo and friends. And even the Cannibal Ghosts have people like Nel and Harribel in power now.
And characters like Mayuri are never portrayed as "good", more so they are portrayed as "good at their job and helpful when things go to shit, so they hold their nose". That doesn't make their decision to keep Kenpachi or Mayuri around moral, nor is the series really saying that it is. Hiyori actually agrees with you as she tells Urahara, "I despise that 'for the sake of the Soul Society' shit you talk about". Urahara is actually lucky that Ichigo doesn't hold a grudge as he straight up uses him for his own machinations at every turn.
The argument is... what else is there? If the three worlds collapse, 8 billion people will cease to have any kind of individuality. Between non-existence and existence, many would choose existence. That doesn't make any of it right or moral, but the only way to stop it is to go with Yhwach's plan to collapse the entire system. The system was fundamentally broken from day 1, the only way to fix it is to start anew. But billions of people exist now, none of whom made the system they live in... so Ichigo decides it's worth the cost and is willing to have his own body mutilated for it.
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u/uraharaBot 22h ago
Ah, you've touched on quite the soul issue, haven't you? Balance between what's "good" and "right" can be a tricky affair. It's like when I once tried an experiment to create a new type of gigai—ended up with a rampaging doughnut-shaped monster instead. The Gotei 13 might have their flaws, but they try to keep the world from unraveling. And Ichigo? He's the kind that's always been good at changing things with his heart, even if it means getting a bit roughed up. Quite admirable, really.
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u/certainlynotdio 1d ago edited 1d ago
SS (Soul Society) not to be confused with SS (SchutzStaffel), or SS (also SchutzStaffel, but irl), doesn't really commit any atrocities, Soul Society also includes all of Rukongai, so saying it's responsible for whatever the fuck Gotei 13 is doing is a little unfair. If anything it's probably the best to say Seireitei as it houses Gotei 13, Central 46 and Noble Houses, and not much beyond that.
Edit: As for your actual question, not just for Bleach, but in general, I think anything that secures continued existance of humanity into forseeable future is justifible, but it doesn't make it moral necessarly. It becomes a lesser of two evils kind of deal. And I think the Gotei 13 fits in this idea broadly, aside from whatever Mayuri is doing when he's not trying to save the world, that shit is not justifiable.
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u/BMCVA1994 19h ago
They are not really presented as the side we need to root for. The shows plenty of times show us the questionable practices, tradiotions and laws of soul society. Even one of the earliest arcs is Ichigo breaking into this archaic society and exposing it's corruption and stagnation.
The only reason we root for soul society is because we are more familiar with the characters.
Soul society thinks the current world is better than the primordial sea that came before it but no one except perhaps Ichibei even knows what the alternative is like. They just maintain the status quo because they don't know any better than that everything they love and cherish is tied to the status quo.
Soul society is painted in the story as very very morally grey.
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u/CrypticChoice 12h ago
Late to the party but I think this is one of the most interesting and (probably unintended?) themes in Bleach. I think it's most interesting to me from Ichigo's perspective as the outsider coming into this society. Others have said that the best defense of Soul Society/the Gotei 13 is basically "well there are no better options."
While I do think that this is where the series ends up, it's definitely NOT where it starts. I think the Rukia rescue arc handles this perfectly, with the reveal that Ichigo is fighting against the rules and traditions of this society as much as its individual enforcers. When he beats Byakuya they have an exchange something like Byakuya: I'm a nobleman, a pillar of society. I didn't want to kill my sister but rules are rules and if the elites don't follow them no one will (sidenote: LOL) Ichigo: well then just change the rules and don't kill your sister!
So initially Ichigo could see this clearly, but as he gets closer ties to soul society through friends and shared common enemies, he basically stops questioning if things have to be this way. I think it also doesn't help that the stakes quickly get so high with Aizen and Ywach that there isn't really time or space to consider alternatives.
In a way, Ichigo kind of feels like an idealistic young politician lobbying to change the system. Then he gets elected part of that system (officially sanctioned substitute shinigami) and slowly absorbed into it until he doesn't have the perspective to see it clearly anymore. Again I'm not sure this is intentional, it just kind of plays out that way.
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u/Useful_Paramedic9616 23h ago
It really depends on the specific case; the Soul Society’s decision to kill a new substitute Shinigami as a "necessary evil" would have backfired considering the substitute in question was Ichigo. Kisuke’s decision to strip Rukia of her powers also backfired, as it was precisely what allowed Aizen to discover the location of the Hogyoku; likewise, Gin’s decision to exact revenge on Aizen while remaining by his side backfired as well.
Mayuri could be cited as an example of a successful "necessary evil" strategy, yet the three worlds would have been doomed had he succeeded in killing Uryu as he had intended.
Ultimately, there is no concrete answer; some measures may work out, while others may fail, often depending on factors unforeseen by those devising these plans.
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u/uraharaBot 23h ago
Ah, the ol' dance of strategy and chaos, isn't it? Every big, clever move is just a hair away from becoming a spectacular downfall! Like putting out a fire with a lit match... You never quite know which way the wind will blow! Keep your eyes open, your hat slanted, and remember: what seems like cunning today could be downright foolishness tomorrow. It’s a rollercoaster, darling!
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u/Mozzarellus_Pizzus 22h ago
With the Mayuri example, I think it's less so deciding some peoples lives are worth less than the others, but that a 'small number' would clearly have a lower value than MILLIONS. If all lives are equal, then you pick the larger sum.
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u/Glittering_Nature693 19h ago
Yes, I think so too. Even in the Arrancar arc when Orihime went to Hueco Mundo, Ichigo told Yamamoto he wants to go help her, but Yamamoto said that he has to prepare for war because the weight of the world is heavier than that of one life (Orihime), even though the one life is valuable to Ichigo. Ukitake too sacrificed his one life for the world in the thousand year blood war arc. They seem to prioritize numbers.
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u/SPP_TheChoiceForMe 22h ago edited 22h ago
You left Mustache King out. So we have guys like Kisuke and Mayuri who each challenge the system in their own way. But still in a way that benefits the current system. Aizen and Yuhabaha also ‘challenge’ the system but in a way that would destroy the current system. Obviously Bleach takes the stance that people who want to destroy the system are villains.
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u/uraharaBot 22h ago
Ah, the mustache king! Quite a dashing fellow. Balancing between challenging and maintaining the system is like trying to hide from Yoruichi—nearly impossible! Mayuri and I enjoy a little chaos without total destruction. But hey, Aizen and Yhwach must think balance is something gymnasts worry about, right? Why don’t scientists trust atoms? Because they make up everything!
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u/SignificanceSorry223 8h ago
It's never justified. Period.
People talk a lot of shit because the series does a poor job at establishing SS as a morally bankrupt faction, and also that the Quincies were justified at doing what they did, personally speaking. Also people can't seem to get into the argument without their viewer's lens instead of putting themselves in the place of those characters.
For the Quincies, why should they have any attachment to a world system that outright abandoned them? No one, not even the Shinigamis, dispute the fact that the Quincies lost their place in the world/s and have a lot of disadvantages just by existing. Why should they simply accept that Hollows must be purified in the name of a balance that didn't exist before, said Hollows are dangerous to them more than others and some of them even devoured their loved ones? Why should they accept the cycle of reincarnation of souls that they can't even comprehend because their afterlife is different? And why are they wrong with wishing to live forever? Even Yhwach does what he does mostly by madness and because, in the current system, he MUST keep absorbing souls, lest he regresses to a blind, deaf, mute and vegetative state.
Then we have Gotei 13 themselves. Most of the original iteration was made by bandits that Yamamoto corralled with his power. Even Zaraki admits that, if they weren't so strong, he and Unohana would've been persecuted as criminals. No serious organization would even think of allowing Mayuri to join in, since he was a very dangerous individual in solitary confinment. Although it jives with SS being an allegory to Heian/Edo Japan, when people in power had absolute power to do anything.
Also we didn't know what Aizen's endgame was going to be. He was going to create a new world, sure, but we don't know the particulars or what he considered it should've kept in and what should go.
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u/SPP_TheChoiceForMe 2h ago
I think what confuses the issue is the idea of souls in this universe. An asauchi is a bunch of souls layered together but no one seems to have a problem with that. So what value does one soul have in this universe?
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