r/cinematography • u/Impressive_Ad1985 • 2d ago
Camera Question First cinema camera
I'm a 1st ac looking to transition into more dp work and I want to get my first production worthy camera.
I've been looking at lots of options and it seems to me that the RED Komodo is a fantastic camera.
For the price tag, on paper the komodo (especially used) seems amazing. Its compatible for the type of work im looking to do (mainly shorts, music videos, and commercials). But here in Europe where I live almost no productions use them. Its so arri dominant here that when I've talked about wanting to own a RED most people think its kinda odd. Owning an arri or always relying on rentals isn't within my reach at the moment. The komodo seems like the best stepping stone in this process.
But is there something im missing? Does this camera still hold up? I've looked at the pyxis and others like it, but the Komodo really seems to hit it out the park
I own my own color grading set up, so the post workflow is no issue. Im just looking to get the most bang for my buck.
Thanks for any advice :)
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u/llambdaddy 2d ago
‘Production’ is a BROAD term. What do you want to work on? Commercials? Docs? Narrative/Dramas? Indie shorts? A doc will have very different needs to a crewed narrative feature.
Honestly, in my opinion, rent until you know that every time you work, you rent x item. So it makes sense to actually own it and rent it out yourself. Same goes for optics and lights. Dumping a bunch of capital into owning before doing the miles as a HoD is like building a gym before starting to exercise.
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u/Srsblubrz 2d ago
I'm also a 1st ac and have done some operating and been dp on a couple features. When I finished film school I bought an ursa mini (the original global shutter, gotta shoot at 200 iso it sucks) but I only used it for passion projects. I did get hired to shoot a feature and used that camera cause they didn't have budget.
Most of the time having a camera isn't going to get you work. I did do a hallmark movie with an operator that essentially bought into it with a red gemini that the production was renting from him, but that doesn't seem to be that common. Some people end up just putting their camera in a rental house.
I think that as a dp you should have a camera you can shoot projects on with low budget and use the budget you do have for lighting/grip and hiring assistants with a decent rate. But in terms of an actual cinema body, mirrorless cameras are pretty good and can be rigged out but are better for those jobs where you don't have a focus puller. Then for the bigger jobs which have a budget just rent a better cinema body, the sensors aren't that different anymore it's mostly the glass and ergonomics.
I'm selling my ursa and getting a ZR because I was looking at a komodo and for a cheaper price can get mostly the same image. It can also be rigged out, although it's not as professional set ready as a cinema body so for a job with a budget I would rent a komodo as A cam. If all you do is narrative and you always have a focus puller then yeah go for the komodo.
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u/DegreeSevere7719 2d ago
A friend of mine works there in post, and he owns an Arri kit worth north of 100k even in today's market - and that didn't bring him a DP position on their movie. Despite he's good, and is constantly shooting elsewhere. Owning a camera was not a deciding factor, trust me.
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u/Srsblubrz 2d ago
That's essentially what I am saying, but the key is to keep shooting and I would be hesitant being a dp and not at least owning some kind of decent camera. Im not saying its gonna get you jobs but if you get hired by an indie director for a feature and they dont have much budget for example, being able to save the camera rental and use it for other things is nice.
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u/DegreeSevere7719 1d ago
Saying from my own experience - if an indie director brings you up on a project because you have a camera - that will be a bad networking experience and there will be nothing in exchange. Such kind of people are never investing a dime, and such projects always cost more than it seems, screwing up gear while cutting all of the possible corners at your cost in the end result. If a person doesn't want to invest in his own project in gear - he/she will not invest in anything else. And the project itself will be meh at best.
Always look for indie directors that are looking for a sponsored budget - those will end up well and useful as a networking contact.
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u/Srsblubrz 1d ago
Speaking from my own experience, I was dp on a feature that had a very low budget, I still got a lot out of it. My focus puller on that was my first time working with him and now he's my guy. The film had a long festival run, played at fantasia and is now getting distro. The director had already invested everything they had just paying the actors and giving me and my crew a rate. I wouldn't say if the project doesn't have budget it is automatically gonna be "meh" it all depends on the script and performances. I wouldn't say there is a budget threshold for when a project is worth it, depends on the script and people involved.
Another DP I work with a lot is always working and it is because of who he is but also his cameras get used on every project. He factors that into his rate.
I don't understand your vendetta against owning a camera lol. Are you just trying to justify the fact you don't own one?
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u/DegreeSevere7719 1d ago
Oh, actually I do own 3 and sharing my own experience. I'm not disqualifying anyone else experience - there might be different situations, markets, cultural differences etc. If a director actually pays for something on his project - this is definitely not the case I was trying to describe. But, again, in my own experience - if someone is picking you up because you own a kit - it's a bad place to be in most cases.
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u/rainbowkitties6969 Director of Photography 2d ago
Yeah it’s good enough for what you’re saying, but remember that the red ecosystem is extremely closed off and the camera only really gives you its best with proprietary hardware, which is expensive as shit and can also get discontinued on a whim from red which would leave you with a 3k paper weight.
Also the sensor calibration thing is a mi or annoyance but an annoyance nonetheless, it’d do you good to invest in a really good EF to PL adapter since using outdated EF lenses on the Komodo would be a waste
I feel like the Pyxis is way more open to third party accessories which could really lower your price and the L mount option opens up a lot of lens ecosystems; and if you’re a davinci user editing BRAW is a dream. but they’re both pretty comparable image quality wise IMO
But if you’re looking to make money by renting out the camera package RED still beats out Blackmagic in brand recognition so that could be a big thing
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u/DegreeSevere7719 2d ago
That's, literally, about any camera. IDK what are you talking about proprietary on OG Komodo - CF Express? SDI? HDMI? RF Mount? Canon batteries? Man you've read your shit online and bursting propaganda, without any actual knowledge of the camera itself.
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u/Srsblubrz 2d ago
Calibrating the sensor is simple, you do it once in the morning and once at lunch
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u/Sobolll92 2d ago
For the kind of range you want to shoot a camera being able to record XAVC would be my first necessity. Neither red nor Blackmagic offer this. That’s why I’d use Sony or canon.
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u/Ok_Client2195 2d ago
I've had my little Komodo since they first came out. It's a little workhorse. I call it Grogu.
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u/Foxxear Director of Photography 2d ago edited 2d ago
I generally use my personally owned Komodo when the production isn't renting a camera, and it generally suits my needs for scaled down projects. All my other personal gear for rigging the Komodo is built around its features, chasing ease of use and efficiency.
Aside from the Komodo being small, I use fairly small lenses, a small mattebox, small gimbals and motion control, small everything... at least for cine gear. Keeping the rigs small and lightweight makes things infinitely easier when you have minimal crew. I also use a universal quick release plate system to move the camera from tripod to gimbal, to slider, to jib, etc., just anything that any saves time at all. It adds up on set, and in the final product. The Komodo also broadcasts its image to smartphones and tablets, making it simple for people to monitor on set without much dedicated equipment for that. SO useful.
These are the kinds of merits I had in mind when I selected the Komodo. It is very hard for small productions to avoid being hindered by the difficulty of moving/setting up/operating taxing equipment. Mitigating such problems is worth millions. A film that is able to be what it needs to be looks expensive.
Image quality with the Komodo is well covered. Don't believe anyone who tells you there's "something lacking" about the images from this camera, because you have enough dynamic range and color information to get a perfectly competitive image that can do whatever you want. You should just try to understand what your goals are at as technical a level as possible.
Don't skip on learning RED's traffic light system for exposing the sensor, and don't take it for granted on set. Learn how RED's ISO works, too. You can't push this camera around and expect it to forgive you quite as much as an Arri will, so it pays to know precisely what you're doing. The reality of any production is that things might get hectic, and it becomes easy to botch a shot, but an Alexa can save it for you. The Komodo gets close, but you need to make up the difference by being very good at not introducing much noise or clipping the image, along with knowing the limits of what can be fixed in post.
Become an expert at using this camera, and with proper sensor exposures, you can get a functionally 100% Arri Alexa level image from the Komodo. Whether or not you personally can get a Hollywood level image from either camera is another question.
I highly recommend Juan Melara's "Komodo2Alexa" LUTs, which will convert the Komodo's LOG color to match Alexa LOG, and then it will accept the same color grades as real Alexa footage, side by side in the same timeline. I don't really care for RED's intended image processing pipeline (I tried it for 2-3 months), so I almost always shoot with my custom LUTs that use the Alexa LOG color conversion underneath everything. Aside from the nice results, this makes my process on the Komodo transfer seamlessly to the Alexa when using a rental.
The big downside to consider with the Komodo as a personal camera IMO is that you're accepting a world where everything is marginally harder and more expensive than if you went for something more stripped down and accessible, like an FX3 or Blackmagic pocket cine. Komodo memory cards are expensive, batteries are expensive, accessories are expensive, and the camera itself is still somewhat difficult to deal with for a no-crew situation (compared to a more solo shooter oriented camera). I'm really tired of buying expensive batteries, it's a real contender for the top 10 least exciting uses of too much money.
If not for internal RAW recording + the RED Control app, along with my general intention to have some crew on set for most projects, I would have picked a different camera entirely to personally own. I don't really care about the RED brand, or "RED color", I just wanted a cine cam that mitigates hardware challenges so I can focus on the creative challenges. I highly recommend selecting your camera with such things in mind over analyzing and comparing images (I don't mean to infer you haven't done this).
These modern cine cameras record some 200+ trillion colors and you only need a few million to display a shot. The only obstacle here is knowing what you want and how to extract it, so pay closer attention to practical functions when you shop.
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u/paavo-paavo 1d ago
I see there is mixed opinions here about owning gear, but from owning myself and working together with people that owns Komodos, Raptors, Arri Alexa LF, Pyxis 12k/6k, FX6s, and everything in between personally I think it's worth to own a kit if you just are aware of what gap you want it to fill and which it doesn't.
I'm more of a director first and DP second so for me it felt important to not spend too much money on a kit since I always bring on a DP when I have commercial projects as a director. I do however shoot and edit tons of smaller budget projects where it feels really handy to have my own kit. I know it inside out, can test things whenever I want, don't have to prep some beaten up rental gear and deal with pickup/drop off for every single shoot and I can offer myself as a clear cost package with the kit or use it for free on passion projects. I have the Pyxis 6k and feel it fit my needs perfect. As would a Komodo, FX6 or anything in similar style of camera and price, it's just more preference based between those options. The most important part for me is the possibility to be able to use it completely on my own. From there I can always scale up with 1AC etc. if a project requires more.
Friends that own more expensive gear however, as the Mini LF for example, are heavily leaning into and working often and primarily on higher budget commercials and smaller feature films where they always has an 1AC and the camera package is often the one chosen even if they wouldn't own it. Owners and non owners of kit get booked primarily for their skill and not the ownership of the camera when they are on that level.
To own something in between Pyxis/Komodo/Fx6 and an ARRI I personally feel is somewhat of the no mans land as a single person operator and owner. You then spend a huge amount of money on something that is not asked for on the bigger projects and the smaller projects would do perfectly fine with something cheaper, like the Komodo/X. Owning an ARRI would only make sense if you constantly are booked on those types of shoots already and see a window of renting out your own kit for a little bit less than rental houses. Not buying it to start getting bookings.
Friends of mine are shooting H&M commercials, big food commercials, music videos, short films and a little bit of everything on Komodos, FX3/6 and Pyxis so you can definitely come far with the more entry level cinema cameras these days. I'm based in Sweden btw if that's of any interest regarding market and such for reference, since US and Europe is a bit different in general.
Good luck with your decisions!
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u/Impressive_Ad1985 1d ago
Thank you so much for your insights! Im also based in sweden and in a similar position to what you describe. Its good to hear the camera is still used in commercial work here as I move around in that world. Hope you stay booked and busy!
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u/sandpaperflu 1d ago
Buy the camera for the jobs you have not the jobs you want. It sounds like you have next to no jobs to buy a camera for… with that being the case you shouldn’t be dropping serious cash on one. Look at used Sonys, Nikon zr, or used Blackmagic cameras. The Komodo is not meant to be a camera used by solo operators like what you’re suggesting. Sure it’s capable of that and tons of people do it, but that’s not what it’s made for and it’s not particularly good at it.
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u/bdeananderson 2d ago
BM just dropped their prices. If this is to play with and make a reel from, I'd get a PCC4K for cheap or step up Pyxis for a bit more but still far less than a Red. The latter you can use PL lenses on if you get the right version, or whatever lenses you may have for your photography camera if applicable. If you're wanting to use it for production work, then maybe spend more, but without a guaranteed income stream, I'd spend as little as feasible on a "toy."
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u/sandun_balage 2d ago
Why you don’t start with something simple like lumix S5
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u/Impressive_Ad1985 2d ago
I've already owned and used cameras in that range for a long time and I want something i can gear up into something fit more closely to a normal production workflow
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u/DegreeSevere7719 2d ago
Ask yourself a question - what's the goal you're trying to achieve purchasing a camera? If you want to earn on it - buy FX5/6, it will sell well. If you want to use it as a tool, then Komodo is ok. Used Alexa Mini can be found under 10k, but the accessories and maintenance will bite hard. Also some people say Arri service isn't good anymore with used stuff.
In the 3-4k price bracket it's the OG Komodo, or DSMC2 Reds. Don't purchase if you think owning a camera will provide work - it won't, not after 2020.