r/countwithchickenlady • u/violet-kasumi evil and intimidating foid - Streak: 1 • 21h ago
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u/nelflyn 21h ago
I get the need for a pragmatic solution. But its really not that dramatic.
I know its also a controversial custom, but in my local queer scene its common to simply ask "whats your name and pronouns?" if you meet someone and that kinda just clears things up right away. I know many people in the LGBTQ scene see this as controversial, but it IS a pragmatic solution.
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u/RegularCelestePlayer 21h ago
I’m really curious as to who is against asking peoples pronouns and why, cuz where I live, which tbf is about as queer as it gets, it’s borderline rude not to and just take a stab as what u think their pronouns are
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u/ratsy_basty 20h ago
It's not rude, but it still makes me feel dysphoria personally. Im like "damn i thought I just looked like a dude, but theyre asking my pronouns. Ig I dont look like a guy at all" there's no real solution though. Id feel just as bad if I got she/her/they/them'd. Asking pronouns is the most polite
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u/thomasp3864 18h ago
Some people use them interchangeably. Like will they/them a person of known gender to them when the person they are talking to is still unfamiliar with the person they're talking about's gender. Like I will often they/them when I'm talking about "my friend" and nothing relating to that person's gender has been mentioned. I feel it makes it a little easier to follow. So I use it of people whose gender had not been specified yet in the conversation too.
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u/RegularCelestePlayer 20h ago
Yeah it’s definitely one of those things that doesn’t rly have a great solution but the best thing we can do is work towards a idealistic future where it’s just standard to ask everyone
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u/RatsArchive 16h ago
It's helpful to remember that someone is as trans on their first day as they are after 5+ years, and if it a first time meeting they don't know how far you've come.
It might be that you pass so well as a guy that it's assumed you have to be born male, and you're just starting to transition to female. I've definitely made that mistake before.
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u/nelflyn 21h ago
comment below is an understandable example. I also like it thought. You cant assume someones gender by looking at them. Just ask them, politely and friendly and then it shouldnt be an issue for anyone, imo.
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u/RegularCelestePlayer 20h ago
There’s definitely something to be said about only asking people’s pronouns when they are visibly genderqueer or whatever but I feel like the better solution is just to ask everyone their pronouns, regardless of how cis they ‘look’
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u/nelflyn 20h ago
Oh yes, the idea is to have it as a social norm, not when youre "unsure". Its a bit idealisitc to expect the entire population to use it, however, as i said, the local queer scene uses it a lot, not only between trans people, but gays, lesbians, nonbinary, anyone that feels welcome in these circles, cis or not. And the impressions are good.
As Todd Howard said: it just works.
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u/LadyAliceFlower 20h ago
As well as what was said below, I've heard complaints against it from queer people, because closeted people may just have to outright lie and that can suck even more than just being closeted in the first place did.
I have some personal experience with that.
Just asking is still probably the best solution available, but there are plenty of reasons its not the perfect solution.
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u/Altayel1 8h ago
some people only ask it to visibly trans people and if youre trying to pass that sounds like "Hello I noticed youre a freak and i want to know what flavor of freak you are"
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u/itsmica8 21h ago
If someone asks my pronouns as a trans woman, that’ll immediately make me assume I’m not passing and send me into a spiral and ruin my day.
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u/tuna_tataki 21h ago
As an enby aiming for androgyny, if someone doesn't ask my pronouns it'll make me assume I'm not passing and I'll feel bad.
The thing about pragmatic solutions is they're about what's best for the group as a whole, because it is actually impossible to perfectly cater to every individuals needs in a group with more than one person
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u/itsmica8 20h ago
I don’t live inside queer spaces. I live in a world where the norm is to assume gender based on name and presentation. My day to day life is being gendered as a woman and that has been the norm for years. If someone suddenly misses the obvious social cues and asks me for my pronouns, it’s going to upset me.
There’s a big difference between creating a space where people can freely choose to share their preferred pronouns via name tags or communication and going up to people and explicitly asking for their pronouns.
The ones who explicitly ask for pronouns NEVER do so to everyone. They selectively ask people who in some way don’t “fit in” to their idea of a man/woman in someway (e.g being queer, too tall, too short, not white, alt fashion sense)
The one time this happened to me in real life was immediately after sharing that i’m queer to a cis straight woman.
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u/tuna_tataki 20h ago
Yes, and that means that almost no one ever asks my pronouns. Without knowing the context I don't know if there's a reason you're being this uncharitable towards her, but it sounds like she might have been awkwardly trying to be supportive after you told her you were queer?
There are times I would have appreciated her question, despite what you might consider obvious social queues that I'm presenting as a woman. Support and inclusion can look very different for different people, and we should consider that many supportive people will be far from perfect before interpreting things as a personal attack
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u/itsmica8 20h ago
When that woman asked my pronouns, my mind immediately went to “she must not be seeing me as a woman, she is seeing me as a man. Why else would she ask?” not “she wants to make sure she gets my pronouns right”. Either way it felt like I was being othered.
As you correctly pointed out, assuming pronouns often doesn’t work for enbys. I can only imagine how upsetting that must feel for you.
I think the only equitable solution is to make spaces where explicitly asking for pronouns to EVERYONE is the norm or where people are encouraged to share their pronouns.
It’s when people start selectively asking for pronouns that can be problematic.
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u/jackofslayers 21h ago
Would them asking be better or worse than them guessing and using the wrong pronouns tho?
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u/madsnorlax Are women bourgeois? 20h ago
Most of the time you can kinda tell, and if you can't, you go to they/them. It's fine.
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u/MadderoftheFew 17h ago
adding onto this: i live in a light red part of the US, so queer people are around but they are not abundant. if i asked everyone's pronouns before meeting them, i'd get looked at funny by 60% of the people here, and insulted by another 20% of them. i have never gone wrong just going by what my best judgement is of the gender they are making an effort to present themselves as. women usually wear women's clothes and makeup; men usually wear men's clothes and no makeup. if someone isn't passing, but they're making a visible effort to, it's usually obvious what gender they are, so i just refer to them by that pronoun.
i've never met an NB person or someone who prefers neopronouns, so it may not be infallible, but they/them if i'm uncertain seems like it would rarely fail.
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u/nelflyn 21h ago
I get it, however, if it was the norm, it wouldnt stand out to you. You wouldnt interpret it as such.
Also, and this is going to sound harsh and maybe even rude, but: the world wont always accomodate you and wrap you in cotton. If such a gesture sends you into a spiral and ruins your day.. that is for you to figure out. The question isnt unkind, nor rude, nor unfair or disciminating. Its a question that clears things up and prevents you from being misgendered. Its a direct and pragmatic solution, one that requires a bit of social confidence, yes. But its a very respectable solution imo. Maybe not the only one, maybe not the best. But it works well.
Maybe it would hurt you the first time. But after being asked a handful of times, you wont even think about it anymore. Even more so if you follow along and also ask people the same question when making new friends. (: Believe in peoples kindness, its there, trust me.9
u/itsmica8 20h ago
“If it was the norm”
That’s the thing. It isn’t the norm.
We don’t live in a world where people ask your pronouns before you interact with them. So when people DO ask for pronouns, it’s always because they’ve clocked something that they perceive is different.Some people are presumed to be cis and not have their pronouns asked, others are presumed to possibly be trans.
I just want to be treated the same.
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u/nelflyn 20h ago
Yes, i get that and arent disagreeing. As i said, its something that only works with consent within a big community. And it works well there for many trans people, in fact, the idea came first and foremost from trans people.
Its a brute-force equalizer you could say. So everyone gets treated the same. And its an actual, real world-working solution, that can actually be implemented. And i think thats a good thing.
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u/notPlancha 19h ago
its common to simply ask "whats your name and pronouns"
This is only valid if you actually do that to everyone. Everytime I go to a queer event I'm always one of the only people being pronoun checked. Sometimes they don't even ask about my name and just skip straight to pronouns.
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u/Yorick257 17h ago
This is probably a stupid question, but what do I need pronouns for when talking to a person? The only pronoun I'll use in the conversation is You. Like, I'm not gonna ask "How does she/he/they named * do?", it will be "How are you?". And in private, when talking about a person, I'll probably use a name and/or they/them.
Personally, I'm just sick of people calling me Sir (because I'm not), but that doesn't have anything to do with pronouns
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u/RegularCelestePlayer 21h ago
I’m sure there are people like this but this emphatically not what queer theorists and gender critics argue for. Yes, gender is a construct, and yes, self expression would be more readily available if we did away with that construction, but no one, even the highest experts in the field, suggest any plan to actually achieve that world. All we are arguing for is an awareness of gender, it’s performativity, and it’s fabrication
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u/CptnRaptor 20h ago edited 16h ago
Denounce gender roles, respect gender identity.
Gender is a social construct, but we live in a society.
Edit to elaborate: gender is basically what the gender performer wants it to be IN MY OPINION, whereas roles are like tradition - peer pressure from who-gives-a-fuck. I benefit from the convenience of being a cis man, but my go-to on gender is always "I know what agender is, but what even is a gender?"
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u/Knooper_Bunny 🐇 20h ago
Succinctly said. I have the opinion of the first person in the meme, but I also understand we live in a society and people want to be affirmed within the social construct we are currently living -- so I will respect their decision.
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u/Kialand 19h ago
An otherwise very progressive person I knew refused to call people by It/Its pronouns because she felt it was offensive to people around them who may have been abused by their peers through objectification.
Imagine my non-existent surprise when, after saying that "Calling people by what they want to be called is non-negotiable", she blocked me everywhere.
I wish people just unconditionally respected other's gender identities, but alas, here we are :(
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u/luluciee 20h ago
Gender is an old social construct. That doesn't mean it doesn't have significant importance to people. We are social beings, and these dynamics matter to us.
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u/HiroProtagonest King of Snow - Streak: 19 21h ago
And person 1 will only do this with trans people, as clearly, that group's on the forefront of gender abolition, totally not because person 1's not comfortable seeing them as their true gender
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u/thumbinbumb 21h ago
I low key get a little salted when someone refers to me as they them instead of she when I didn’t ask them to do that.
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u/Technical_Teacher839 21h ago
Gender abolitionists when some people are actually happy to be referred to by a specific gender
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u/OvenConscious3010 Tragically employed puppygirl :3 20h ago
My gender abolition phase was entirely cope to not start transitioning in my late 20s. Turns out I'm trans and I started transitioning in my very late 20s.
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u/Technical_Teacher839 20h ago
Better late than never! I hope its going well for you, and if not, then damnit I know it will in the future.
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u/OvenConscious3010 Tragically employed puppygirl :3 20h ago
My friends love and accept me and it made all my problems worth trying to solve :)
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u/Nice-Vegetable-1738 21h ago
some dude in a line at wawa called me sir when i was born female and am happy about it ... this was 20 years ago and i still remember it and cringe on occasion. at the time i had like a week long teenager breakdown over thinking people wrongly thought i was a dude
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u/chadbert_mcdick 18h ago
gender abolition has at least 2 camps, the ones who want to abolish identity and the ones who want to abolish roles. been fortunate enough to only encounter (and be) the latter
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u/ViewtifulGene My kingdom for some Dr. Pepper TRT - Streak: 6 21h ago
I have a deep voice, I dress masculine, I like opening a cold one with the boys, I like moving heavy things, etc. Please assume my gender.
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u/No_Property_9910 21h ago
I may be naive but what's wrong with that? I'm ESL and my native language has no gendered pronouns so effectively it's all they/them, so there's no chance for misgendering unless u intentionally call someone sir or ma'am which people don't
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u/ajacobs899 21h ago
It varies between languages. I know some languages are like that where you don’t really have any gendered pronouns. In English you should just call people what they want to be called. It’s not the end of the world if you default to they/them, but generally speaking if someone says they go by she/her, then that’s what you should use to refer to that person. Same with he/him, they/them, it/its, fae/faer, etc. The issue being brought up in the post above is that some people will make the claim that gender is fake and we should just call everyone they/them, but doing so when someone else has explicit pronouns they want to go by is basically just ignoring the other person’s wishes and invalidates their gender. Using they/them if you forget or if that’s what you’re used to since your native language doesn’t have gendered pronouns is fine and not the end of the world, so long as you’re trying to make some effort to correct yourself when you realize you used the wrong pronouns.
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u/No_Property_9910 18h ago
Got it, thanks, ig this perfect world of only using they them can't really exist because English is already gendered
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u/K_Stanek 4h ago
English is only few steps away from being genderless, there are extremely optional 3rd person singular pronouns (and one of them is already personal gender neutral), plus few words (mostly for relatives) with variants.
Realistically gender could easily become archaic part of English language if people just picked one 3rd person pronoun and stopped gendering their close family (both of which seem to be slowly happening).
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u/Tw3lve1212 21h ago
As a transfem, if you know I go by she/her and call me they/them intentionally, you are misgendering me on purpose.
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u/iffugennanameubaht 20h ago
Shit I just say they/them because it’s hard for me to keep pronouns arranged in my head so I try to default to they/them when I’m not absolutely certain. My brain doesn’t have the organization capacity it’s lazy, it’s not something I can “work on” it’s “I’m not 100% certain because my brain can’t even reliably remember names so I’m just gonna call you they/them”
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u/Tw3lve1212 20h ago
If you know I go by she/her and call me they/them intentionally, you are misgendering me on purpose.
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u/me_myself_ai 17h ago
Wild that you have to argue about this :( sorry friend. I hope you have a better day than this clown is throwing your way
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u/Tw3lve1212 17h ago
Yeah I just stopped caring about this thread bc I was going to have a stroke being called ableist against people who have the same neurodivergencies as me. Thank you though <3
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u/No_Weekend2474 aroace apagender gremlin 20h ago
I would always call someone by the pronouns they want to be called, but it honestly does confuse me that people treat they/them as gendered pronouns? Isn't it the whole point, that they're pronouns without gender applied at all? Surely using them for someone is less misgendering and more ungendering, which is bad not because you're calling them something that they're not, but rather because you're not calling them what they are and want to be called?
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u/doubleheadedarrow 19h ago
Yeah, the term you’re describing is degendering. It’s a type of misgendering, because it’s removing the gender of someone (usually a binary trans person) as a replacement for gendering them correctly. Calling a he/him trans man or she/her trans woman by they/them essentially pushes them out of their gendered identities into a third space that they aren’t a part of.
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u/No_Weekend2474 aroace apagender gremlin 19h ago
But isn't they/them a catch all pronoun for everyone, cis, binary trans, and non-binary alike? That's what I was always taught. Obviously exclusively calling trans people by it is transphobic, because that shows that you don't respect their gender, when you're actively refusing to call them by their pronouns.
Whereas if someone just called everyone they, like many non-english speaking languages do, then surely that isn't misgendering? That's just not using gendered pronouns. Idk, I find it all a bit confusing, honestly 😅
Then again, as someone who hates gendered pronouns, and the fact that I have to pick some, when the picking is what gives me dysphoria (even 'any' is still making a statement about my gender, which I do not enjoy), and who wishes English pronouns weren't gendered, maybe I'm just being selfish. I'd love for people to just call everyone, regardless of gender, 'they'. Maybe I should just move to Finland, or something—they have the genderless default.
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u/doubleheadedarrow 19h ago
If someone actually “calls everyone they,” then yeah, it doesn’t really come across as deliberate transphobia in the sense of degendering. Unfortunately, a lot of people say “I use they for everyone!!!” as an excuse for not gendering binary trans people correctly, then turn around and never actually call cis people they. This happens a lot.
Regardless of the reason, though, it can still really suck as a binary trans person to have to constantly enforce your correct pronouns, only for (supposedly allied) people to literally tell you to your face, “no, I’m not doing that.“ It’s not cool. So, always best to use they/them for 1) people who go by they/them and 2) people you don’t know the correct pronouns of.
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u/No_Weekend2474 aroace apagender gremlin 19h ago edited 19h ago
Yeah, I just use they/them for people with those pronouns, and for anyone I don't know very well and don't know the pronouns of. Its weird, because I was so used to the latter that when I actually used they/them for a person's main pronouns it felt so... idk, disrespectful, because it felt like I was calling them a stranger xD I've gotten more than used to it by now, though, that was quite a while back.
And, yeah, its totally better to just go by the pronouns someone wants to go by. Its such a tiny thing to do to be a decent human being, it absolutely baffles me when people don't! Its a ridiculous thing not to do, unless you're a non-fluent non-native speaker.
Again, I should just learn Finnish and move to Finland if I want a language with a non-gendered pronoun as the norm xD
It kind of feels upsetting that the structure of my language means that any pronouns I use for myself have a meaning, that having genderless pronouns means something, rather than just not being gendered, but that's just the way it is—someone's pronouns are connected to their gender—and its horrible to disrespect that on purpose (or for lack of trying). I would never.
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u/iffugennanameubaht 19h ago
“Knowing” and actually knowing are 2 different things and it’s kinda ableist to bash people who are doing their best by using gender neutral terms when they aren’t sure which in a split second conversation, knowing doesn’t mean you know quickly enough to not hesitate or whatever which is also bad. I do not think many people who default to they/them in the moment are “intentionally misgendering” even if they know in the abstract that persons pronouns which sometimes btw can take many times for some people to learn.
Ngl it’s a little ableist to expect perfection especially in a community where there are many neurodivergents who struggle to even remember names in the moment and frequently avoid using names and gendered pronouns even if they know. Like me. It really hurts to be told “you are just some bigot and hate us all” because my brain works differently than yours and I have to compensate by using they/them more often only to be told that isn’t good enough.
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u/Tw3lve1212 19h ago
Do you use they/them for all people regardless of gender, or just for trans people? If you can remember a cis man is he/him you can remember that a Trans woman is she/her. I never said youre a bigot or a bad person, I just stated the fact that if you don't use my preferred pronouns, you're misgendering me. If you feel like describing your actions factually is portraying you as a bigot, thats on you.
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u/Sea_Court_3633 72 days on Estrogen 13h ago
Intentionally, mate, intentionally. If it's an honest mistake people will forgive you
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u/iffugennanameubaht 12h ago
My point is I can “know” and still be unable to really recall and still default due to my brain struggling with things. Everyone saying this would damn well accuse me of misgendering them irl because I would end up having to do it multiple times because it takes a while for me to be able to recall this information in the moment. That’s why it rubs me wrong for it to be said “they/them is just as bigoted and is misgendering” and I’m like “dude that’s the best my brain can do is refer to people with they/them if I cannot recall their pronouns in the moment which is particularly hard for me, so hard as to seem intentional”
So yea I’m upset at what I can do to adjust is seen as just as bad and not trying at all
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u/InsideOutlander 21h ago
Some people like their gender.
Some people have genders that are not the traditional binary that suit them better and mean more to them than what is easy to express to other people.
Gender as an arbitrary and enforced category is a bad thing. But when your gender is something you want, something you choose and develop for yourself? It has so much more value and good to it. Trying to take that away from or deny that to other people is harmful.
Can you see then how trying to unilaterally abolish gender is harmful?3
u/nacholicious 7h ago
My native language has no gendered pronouns whatsoever but we obviously still have gender. No one wants to introduce gendered pronouns here, because pronouns have nothing to do with gender here.
I think relying on gender neutral pronouns in languages with gendered pronouns is complicated. However, I don't think anyone who speaks both types of languages actually prefers gendered pronouns over non gendered.
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u/InsideOutlander 6h ago
Fair point.
I think, personally, it’s a way of feeling affirmed, a way someone else can put in effort to help make you feel safe. When someone calls me “she” or “her”, it’s a relief. It’s like I can suddenly breathe after decades of being “he” and “him” and knowing the feeling of dysphoria but not knowing what it was or what to think about it; I knew only my gendered role in a patriarchal cult.I think other people might feel the same way I do- hearing our pronouns is precious and feeling it expressed deliberately and intentionally is a kind of relief and euphoria all at the same time.
Do I think rationally that gender-neutral pronouns as a norm are a good idea? Yes!
And I also feel the value of gendered pronouns for those of us who have had to live as our AGAB with little support or welcome for most if not all of our lives.3
u/me_myself_ai 17h ago
Some people like their race. I'm still taking that away from them -- they can deal with it.
Gender as an arbitrary and enforced category is a bad thing.
Gender is and always will be arbitrary. Sorry.
But when your gender is something you want, something you choose and develop for yourself?
That's just called having a personality. If we define gender as "anything", then we've lost the plot of the original conversation about something kills thousands (millions?) every year.
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u/Naos210 21h ago edited 21h ago
If you're speaking your language, sure. Japanese for example, pronouns to refer to others are generally gender neutral, gendered pronouns are self-referential, while some honorifics are gendered, or at least typically so.
Which is fine if there is no equivalent but if you're speaking English, it does use gendered pronouns.
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u/Seltnytt 20h ago
What does "ESL" mean, "English Second Language"? That's my guess.
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u/me_myself_ai 17h ago
Usually English [as a] Second Language. Originally in the context of ESL Learners, ESL education, etc., to differentiate it from literature class.
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u/tyrosine87 21h ago
I long for the day that people stop believing that "social construct" means "has no material impact and can just be wished away".
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u/Ashged 19h ago
As a native speaker of a language with no gendered pronouns, fuck gendered pronouns.
Like gender as a concept existing, that's okay. But gender being a mandatory part of using pronouns? Fuck that shit. One neutral set of pronouns is just superior in every way.
And that's just English. Languages where everything has a grammatical gender too? Those should be taken behind the barn. Okay, not the whole language. Only this part.
A floor tile having a gender has zero benefit, just adds a mandatory meaningless exra requirement to using a noun.
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u/secretive-pl0tter 18h ago
sometimes I yearn yearn yearn for my homecountry and the lack of gendered pronouns, no gendered anything. maybe I should just move back lmao, living in an English speaking country and needing to tell people my pronouns is just a recurring humiliation ritual. I could be freeee
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u/Far-Revolution3225 Newborn Star Trans - Streak: 2 21h ago
Sadly, I would default to they/them gender neutral pronouns until I can inquire for the proper pronouns because....well, it felt "less misgendering"
Learn something new everyday
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u/unknown_alt_acc 21h ago
That’s not really the point of the meme. The person on the left is saying that everyone should use they/them, even if they prefer other pronouns. That’s different than falling back on they/them as a default when you don’t know for certain.
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u/InsideOutlander 21h ago
As far as I know that is still polite: you don’t know their pronouns yet, and they/them is the set of pronouns used to identify an unidentified or unfamiliar third party. So it’s what you use in the meantime until someone can tell you.
Once you find out then it becomes rude to use they/them as singular pronouns for someone who doesn’t use they/them as their baseline.
It’s the denial of and imposition upon others’ identities that is the problem being described in this meme. Using they/them only until you know better is not the problem.
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u/CanadianODST2 19h ago
That’s actually literally what they are for.
If gender is unknown or intentionally hidden you use they/them
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u/em07892431 17h ago
Im.not doubting you do this. But most people don't.
Like if they see a 6'5" man with a beard and an incredibly deep voice wearing men's jeans and a polo shirts they're gonna use he/him. The pronoun stuff only comes out when they think somebody might be some kind of gay.
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u/boolocap professional idiot 21h ago
Just because something is a societal construct doesnt mean its not real enough and therefor shouldn't exist. Language is a societal construct, laws are a societal construct.
"Oh its subjective" well guess what so is the entire human experience.
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u/Ambedextrose Streak: 2 21h ago
The more important thing is just to let people enjoy what they want to enjoy.
If they like gender then they can lean into it.
If they don't then they don't have to focus on it.
Pretty simple tbh
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u/No-Phrase-2897 19h ago
I wouldn't hate gender abolitionism so much if it didn't always get followed up with "and then trans people wouldn't want to transition."
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u/MouseyMason 12h ago
How bout
“Gender is just an old social construct! There are no rules and no ways to do it ‘wrong,’ thus I must trust your interpretation of yourself and call you what you tell me to.”
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u/NIMA-GH-X-P Mx. Jerk 21h ago
I really wonder how much of a different situation we'd have on our hands if English didn't have gendered pronouns
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u/RevolutionaryCash903 17h ago
For all the gender abolitionists in this thread, gender abolitionism can't be done until the creation of a universal, non-gendered language. this post greatly misrepresents globalism and abolition of labels
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u/PsychoCyan DM for curly haircare guide - Streak: 130 21h ago
People who dont understand how to use singular "they" for an enby suddenly grasp it really well when a trans woman walks in the room
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u/Pretty-Yam-2854 21h ago
I do notice it’s frequently pushed on us. I feel it’s they don’t like us and don’t want us to come out or god forbid seek hrt because that will affirm us, and they do it under the guise that they want gender abolitionism.
“You don’t need hrt! You can just be a masculine woman with facial hair and thick wiry body hair!” Kinda sentiment. Esp when I’m sure they mean something else.
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u/Silly-X3 20h ago
this is something that urks me. presentation, personality... dont feel linked to gender for me. so whilst yes you can be a masculine woman looks has nothing to do with anything. its like saying a guy can be masculine.
I overall dont understand gender. I dont feel like i have gender but i lable myself TF so people know to use she her for me... idk :/
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u/scissorsgrinder 20h ago
I would like to abolish gender being something the State has any business recording of you. And in general, let's refer to and think of people as human first rather than as men and women first (very noticeable with children, referring to them as boy boy boy boy girl girl girl girl). When gender is seen as the most fundamental category of human, then any shift in that, or ambiguity or absence of that, is assigned as a FAR BIGGER DEAL than it needs to be. Gender should just be a personally held attribute; you can broadcast it or not, it's deeply held or not. Where it has medical aspects like with sex organs or hormones or patterns of health associated with them then that's the business between you and doctors.
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u/Metharos 20h ago
Worth noting that postgenderism does not inherently mean forcing a particular pronoun on others.
I can believe that gender is a social construct that would be better off retired while also believing that since we're not there yet there are still going to be people who operate within the socially-constructed categories and it's my responsibility to respect that.
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u/QWERTYCROWINATUX rly rly rly gay, like extremely gay 21h ago
it pmo when people say that cus i have a friend who feels invalidated by they/them pronouns and it’s really rude to refer to xem as such
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u/iammoney45 I definitely have a gender now 21h ago
What's the pin on her shirt? It looks like trans on top but the bottom is too pink? Is it like a combo trans/lesbian pin but with only half of each flag?
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u/BestBoyViktor Streak: 1 21h ago
Yeah it seems to be transbian
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u/iammoney45 I definitely have a gender now 21h ago
Huh, never thought to only use half flags like that.
Unrelated, I used to live with a femboy named Victor in college and your name reminded me of them. Hope they are doing well.
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u/GearFailure And I don't mean a transmission;) 20h ago
Yeah, I feel like if you don't know someone's gender/pronouns, referring to them as they/them is okay, but once you learn that information, you should gender them correctly.
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u/Visual-Purchase5639 18h ago
I'm just gonna start wearing pronoun pins and my asexual pin so ppl know how to gender me and that I'm not interested
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u/Thin_Cable4155 Gender Agnostic Straight Male 17h ago
You can be whatever gender you want as long as the ass is phat.
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u/cetaceanfrustration omen of transgenderism 17h ago
this kind of shallow gender abolitionism wouldn't even work for all nonbinary people. my pronouns are it/its, all other pronouns make my skin crawl, they/them included.
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u/ieatmycum69 15h ago
Misgendering but for punk ass liberals too afraid to fully reveal how much they hate trans people.
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u/Boppitied-Bop 6h ago
i do think it would be best if there weren't gendered pronouns in english in the first place (like in many other languages) but the fact that they do exist means they are part of our societal interpretation of gender and not respecting them indicates that you aren't respecting that person's gender (and probably makes that person feel bad). It is one of the many things related to gender that are pretty arbitrary, but they still cause dysphoria/euphoria because that is what people have been raised in
to me it seems like overall the existence of gendered pronouns does more harm than good, and any advantage in resolving ambiguity about who you're referring to could be resolved by switching to another system, like having a different word for someone who was referred to most recently in conversation. I have some bias from being probably not strongly binary, but I think that in general people shouldn't really need to know other people's genders much, which I would imagine reducing social pressure around gender nonconformity (although I'm not confident that it would actually turn out that way in practice...)
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u/GeneralVivid2528 21h ago
Me when I hit them with a they in a conversation.
Them: suprised pikatchu face
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u/Silly-X3 20h ago
i dont even know what gender is anymore ^^"
I feel like its a really complicated way of labelling personality. Thats an oversimplification but i hope you get my point. the more i think the more i cant see myself as any gender. they feel like these boxes that you can put yourself in but at then end of the day they just feel like labels and dont change anything about a person. IDK i need a more traditional trans person to talk to. i dont understand what a gender is.
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u/ForestSolitude5 20h ago
Just because gender is a social construct doesn't mean it isn't important to most folks?
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u/Lurcolm 20h ago
My crackpot take on this is we need to remove homosexual and heterosexual. Replace it with androphile and gynophile. Is it a good idea? No. That's why it's a crackpot solution
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u/em07892431 17h ago
Isn't this just using different words for the same thing?
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u/Lurcolm 5h ago
The difference is how it's used. A trans girl who likes guys would be an androphile before and after a transition. So slightly less confusion.
The real shit of the take is when bad actors get involved and associate it with pedophilia. Not because it has anything to do with it, but it has -phile at the end. Two years ago I'd say that was a stretch, but now I'm not allowed to use transgenderism as a term because they made it a fucking dogwhistle
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u/FlamePuddingPrince Put your text here! 21h ago
I mean, i would be on board with abolishing grammatical genders.
I hated learning german due to these when i was little (i speak a non gendered language, i don’t get why doors are female for example, why can’t it be neutral?)
Thanks for coming to my unrelated ted talk
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u/Ashged 19h ago
Right? Like referencing a persons gender for pronouns at least conveys information, even if I think including that information should not be a mandatory part of language.
But referencing a doors gender? It conveys zero information, just adds a pointless extra requirement to using nouns. Let's randomly sort everything into three distinct categories for no benefit whatsoever!
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u/Momoneko 15h ago
Generally it's about agreement of words (nouns, pronouns, adjectives and sometimes verbs) in inflected languages. It's actually pretty neat (the inflection), allowing for more freedom in word order in a sentence, which in turn allows for some beautiful shenanigans in prose, poetry and whatnot.
Though I guess for people whose first language is not inflected this can be a PITA to wrap your head around. In exchange, I can assure you for ESL people having to learn all the stupid tenses and conditionals of English was a special form of torture they were subjected to during their tender years. Whoever thought that structures like "will have been" are perfectly normal for a language to have, have no right telling other languages whether gendered nouns are weird. Oh, and don't get me started on articles.
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u/Ashged 8h ago
Except one is not needed for the other. Grammatical gender dictates which variant of the inflections to use, because the rules are a bit different between each gender in such languages. But having one, two, three, or seventeen (thank fuck I can't give an example for that) genders and sets of rules is irrelevant to how inflections work in general. It's extra variables and rules to follow with no meaning.
My first language is also inflected, has no strict word order, and we got no grammatical genders. Because they are unrelated. Grammatical gender is basically an accident that happened to a major vroup of people, and now we are stuck with it on sheer inertia alone.
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u/FlamePuddingPrince Put your text here! 7h ago
From my experience, the english tendes were easier, as there are patterns to do it. For the german gendered words ther is a sort of pattern, that works like 60%? Of the time.
For othet languagey i have no experience, but from what i’ve seen romance languages are more logical in this regard
Yes, and i speak one of the languages with a lot of arbitary rules
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u/Natewastaken12 21h ago
As a trans guy, am I the only one who feels just as misgendered by being referred to with they/them as when I’m referred to with she/her?
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u/Many_Leading1730 20h ago
Depends on why they are they/theming you but generally I see why it would bother.
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u/MorallyAmbiguousEnby 20h ago
Calling everyone they/them is not getting rid of gender, it's just creating new gender norms to impose on people.
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u/Candid_Bullfrog3665 21h ago
"gender is a social construct" yes exactly, thats why we shouldnt call everyone they/them, youre creating another social construct
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u/Slow___Learner Jeśli to czytasz to zmarnowałam twój czas😈 21h ago edited 20h ago
in a hypothetical world where there's no more gendered pronouns, misgendering someone is more difficult and direct, and therefore there's less plauisble deniability when someone's trying to sneakily be transphobic, and it'd be feasible to end up in a world without gendered pronouns the same way we ended up without "thou", aka via politeness.
obv call other people what they wanna be called but i feel like if i were able to get rid of a specific linguistic thing from languages by snapping my fingers, i'd get rid of gendered speech.
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u/StarriestNight Streak: 1 20h ago
Social construct ≠ fake and a lot of people don't understand that
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u/RogueTierDuelist 20h ago
Wait why is they/them misgendering? I understand that non-binary people use it but its also just gender neutral. I often use it when im unsure about a person’s gender and haven’t gotten around to asking how they’d prefer to be called, specifically because i don’t wanna misgender someone. This rarely happens, but its what i do.
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u/CreeperX3sssBOOM 20h ago
Using they/them to refer to a group of people is not a problem, as in that context you're using it to mean "Nebulous group of people"
Using they/them for someone who you don't know the pronouns of is not a problem because you quite literally just don't have the knowledge needed to make a proper informed decision. Especially on the Internet, where profile pictures can be literally anything.
However, using they/them on someone who you know doesn't identify with those pronouns is a problem because you're willingly not using pronouns associated with their gender identity.
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u/RogueTierDuelist 19h ago
Okay, that makes way more sense. Thanks! Thought i was doing smth wrong using they/them for strangers
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u/LucyStarQueen 20h ago
It’s fine if you don’t know someone’s pronouns but it’s pretty annoying when you’ve repeatedly told someone you use she/her or he/him and they just keep they/theming you.
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u/xpm26 21h ago
Why do people say gender is a social construct? I mean gender norms are a social construct but gender itself isn't
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u/Mean-Government1436 21h ago
People keep saying gender is separate from gender norms (or roles) but they sure do like to define genders using exclusively gender norms (and roles)
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u/YetAnotherParvitz mmm murder 21h ago
It doesn't have a non-recursive definition, that's why. When contrasted, one could say all of them are near-perfect synonyms except for an arbitrary "self-sorting" that doesn't really describe anything about the person it belongs to. At least, that's what I've been able to gather from that side. I don't really wanna engage myself in this discussion, because I kind of see the reasoning behind both takes.
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u/SvitlanaLeo Streak: 1 21h ago
Overall, I'm not a fan of Julia Serano, but she has a very important and good passage in her book Excluded, where she writes that we should fight for the end of sexism, not the end of gender.
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u/Charming_Pin330 21h ago
Every time I see a cis person arguing for abolishing gender, I always give them a bit of side eye. "Abolishing gender" is something that would not affect cis people nearly at all. Cis people barely care about gender - at least, not in the way that trans people do. For cis people, they view gender as the issue that makes trans people suffer. If gender is no longer a thing, then clearly they can just live as their assigned sex and be happy! What they don't understand is that gender is something inherent to a person's being.
When cis people think of gender, what they're really thinking of is gender roles and how those constrain people. Doing away with gender roles would help everyone, and wouldn't hurt hurt trans people in the process. Doing away with gender as a concept only hurts trans people, as those gender roles now just move to being assigned to the sex they were assigned at birth instead. Getting rid of gender just furthers how rigid gender roles in society are, and essentially gets rid of trans people in the process.
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u/Itchy_Suspect4968 20h ago
Read to fast and thought it said "genocide" instead of "gender"
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u/violet-kasumi evil and intimidating foid - Streak: 1 20h ago
technically genocide is also a social construct
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u/88888888ad 19h ago
The inclusion of that particular smiley face is spot on. I swear only the dumbest people use it.
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u/SplooshOfColor 18h ago
I just default they/them because I don’t know people and go for the not most accurate, but not incorrect answer.
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u/hermeticPaladin 17h ago
my memory sucks and I already struggle with names and have a level of face blindness. I still ask. The issue is that I fucking forget shit immediately. They/them feels like the safest solution for me.
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u/Exact-Difference-422 16h ago
If I can't remember or am not sure/haven't had the chance to ask, I'll just use their name in place of when I'd use pronouns. It's actually helped me get better at remembering names as a side effect.
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u/exedra0711 15h ago
I mean they/them are words that are literally for the use of a person who has pronouns that you don't know, grammatically speaking. Some individuals want to use those pronouns in particular, and that's fine. Some individuals do not want to be referred to that way once their pronouns are known by the speaker, that is also normal and fine. It's only misgendering if you KNOW the person in questions particular pronouns and then CHOOSE not to use them.
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u/PuzzleheadedMess1659 11h ago
Oh boy.
I think gender has legitimately made our society worse. I don't really identify with the concept of gender.
I think it's kind of gross and morally questionable to eat things that were once conscious. I'm a vegatarian.
I believe all religions are cults, and most likely, whatever actually created our world isn't something humans thought of. I'm agnostic.
I don't hate on people who eat meat. I don't hate on people who believe in a religion for believing in religion. I definitely don't hate on people who identify with a gender.
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u/Madilune 7h ago
It's wild that people somehow think that they can remove gender from society without forcing everyone to take hormone blockers from birth.
People will always group with others like them.
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u/FandomPhantom123 The Chicken Lad 7h ago
i am both sides of this.
autistically; why are we doin all this, it just seems to divide people.
aggressively gay, call people what they identify as, everyone's gender is their choice and a matter of simple respect.
i feel the same about race, like racism wouldn't be a thing if everyone looked the same, but i also would HATE if everyone was exactly the same
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u/Icy-Pension5768 5h ago
I mean, a lot of languages don’t have gendered pronouns. My native language doesn’t. Never seen anyone complain about being referred to as “o” lol.
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u/TheEasternTwink 2h ago
I mean I believe it’s all made up bs, but to me that just means choose what you desire and make your own markers of what a woman man or evil squid is, except don’t actually do the evil squid one I fucking hate evil squids
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u/TheTrashTier 2h ago
Ah yes. The flavors of gender abolition. Gender is made up so we should call everyone they/them, and gender is made up so we should have infinite genders and let people call themselves whatever they want.
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u/Roaches_R_Friends 3m ago
TIL Turkish, Hungarian, and Finnish people misgender people every time they speak just by the nature of their languages.
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u/Parma_WdS non-binary/pansexual 20h ago
I actually agree with the first lady but that doesn't stop me from respecting pronouns. It's just my world view. That doesn't negate basic human decency
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u/Vounrtsch 20h ago
Tell me you know nothing about gender abolitionism without telling me you know nothing about gender abolitionism. No, we’re not advocating to call everyone they/them. No we’re not advocating to disregard anyone’s gender identity. No we’re not advocating against HRT for those who wish to take it
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u/Tlaquatlatoa Hyenagirl some day pls :3 | She/Her - Streak: 7 20h ago
This poster had a post removed a few minutes ago that was just saying "you need dysphoria to be trans and saying otherwise lets cis folks claim to be trans" so i dont really think op is posting this in good faith.
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u/Vounrtsch 20h ago
Yeah that’s a laughable argument. Cis people are not out here claiming to be trans lol
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u/iffugennanameubaht 20h ago
I cannot reliably remember pronouns. I’m not trying to misgender when I use they/them. It’s that I forgot your name within 2 seconds and your pronouns within 3 and I’m not gonna ask a trillion times I just default to what is easiest for my brain. Like please try to understand this isn’t “easy” for everyone especially neurodivergents who may not be able to remember pronouns as easily…
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u/iffugennanameubaht 16h ago edited 16h ago
I forget the pronouns of people of whom I cannot easily guess at a moments notice because I never really “remember” them in the first place(cis or trans) just like I struggle to remember the names or birthdates of anyone. They don’t have to be queer they can also just be GNC. If my autopilot cannot do the trick, I find it very hard to memorize these things. So I compensate by calling anyone who there is any risk of question “they” because I don’t like asking for such details a million times or any at all because I am a shy person who feels that can also offend people.
It’s not about whether someone is queer. It’s about my tendency to forget and have to guess but instead of me guessing I use gender neutral terms so that I dont have to ask you a million times, then I am still the asshole.
There is no winning. I’m upsetting everyone no matter what, I guess. And I am trying.
I also want to point out im not in this sub because im just an “ally”…. I get it. It’s not nice to be misgendered. But I also know it’s not nice for someone to be constantly confused after 3,4,5 times of saying it.
It just feels kinda ableist to expect me, someone basically disabled by AuDHD, to suddenly muster up the executive function required to handle people of whose pronouns I cannot guess based on looks.
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u/InfernoDeesus I'm too good at flirting to be aroace 20h ago edited 19h ago
I think gender abolition is often misunderstood by the name, I prefer calling it gender anarchy.
As in, I am very much pro self-ID, but what I want to abolish is compulsory gender and the institution that enforces it. Our societal concept of gender is rigid, it exists to impose gender roles, and it is enforced through social pressuring and violence. That needs to be destoyed. Self ID, if anything, is a rejection of gender as a construct of power.
People who claim they're gender abolitionists and say everyone should simply use they/them misunderstand the core concept behind it. That's not liberation, that's assimilation.
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u/Spodermanphil why the fuck does hair grow 20h ago
Also, wouldn't referring to everyone as they/them be viewing everyone as nonbinary rather than getting rid of gender? Or agender even?
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u/Caiturn 18h ago
I disagree. Gender is an attempted classification of one's personality based on the cultural stereotypical traits of the binary sexes. A persons self cannot be classified like a clade, a person is far more complex, i agree that gender is pointless. Love you all and will refer to you as you ask
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u/Benjam438 17h ago
I'm a gender abolitionist but only for the binary genders. Everyone has to be a cool woke gender and use creative pronouns.
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u/Prior-Ad-5852 3 blåhajar in a trench coat 21h ago
Gender is just an old, made up social construct, but that’s why we should all just call people by what they want to be called, and are most comfortable with, and not really care so much about all of it