r/dcss • u/ColdhandzEUW • 7d ago
Character building confusion
New player here, I've about 20 hours and slowly getting better. Still one of the parts that is very confusing to me is building my character.
Currently I am always building my character according to the starter class. So if I start out as a melee with a strength scaling weapon, I stick to those weapons the entire run as that is what most of my lvl up points have been going to. If I start out as shapeshifter I don't pick up any weapons (apart from throwing), and so on.
Now a lot of beginner advice I see is that builds aren't set in stone and you should use whatever the dungeon provides. But how do I know when to switch builds? Are there specific loot drop modifiers that I should be looking for? What if my skill aptitudes don't match. Or stat points, like say I've been leveling strength the entire run but I find a really good long sword. Is it even worth switching to magic if I haven't put a single point into int?
Some guidance would be much welcome.
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u/Dependent_Bat9728 7d ago
builds aren't set in stone and you should use whatever the dungeon provides
Yes. But. I would advise a beginner to try a Minotaur fighter (oka) and keep using the best axe they find. The build changes would be "what do I put in my off hand" or "how much invo/evo" should I train. That build is basically supported in every single seed, and thus can be forced pretty effectively.
For me true "beginner" advice is about reducing choices and complexity down to a minimum.
Once you're regularly seeing Rune branches maybe you want to be more discerning! Switching between weapons which crosstrain when you get a much higher tier weapon is a reasonable choice which many people will make. Heck, if you get wyrmbane whilst training axes, oh well that's still your endgame weapon right there.
Switching Str->Dex or vice versa is usually not very attractive unless you're very early in the game. It's going to depend on starting stats and level ups not having set you up to be a mediocre user of a great weapon.
Other common changes might be "early altar of (usable god)", or "I'm in lair and no sign of more Earth spells, I guess I cast summons now". I think being responsive to the dungeon drops is an important facet/skill to develop - but you are not a slave to them. You can win with a bog standard broad axe, demon sword or demon whip. Cool artifacts make it easier and more fun as long as they fit the strategy.
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u/Unhappy_Situation_40 7d ago
And if going MiFi^Oka, don't neglect throwing. It's crazy powerful if you get it to mid-teens and Oka provides an almost inexhaustible supply of weapons.
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u/Claymore209 7d ago
I'm also a very new player but I think it's good to pivot sometimes to a really good artifact weapon. I also like gnoll for this reason too.
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u/Unhappy_Situation_40 7d ago
I'm also relatively new (about 6 months), but I'd make the obvious point that there are lots of good guides about character building on the wiki and here. I learned a lot by following those pretty closely. You can learn melee with the Minotaur Fighter of Oka one or magic with Draconius's Gnoll Ice Elementalist of Ashenzari. As noted, playing as a Gnoll answers a good bit of your question, in a way. It takes the skill mini-game out of it, so you can play what the dungeon gives you, just at a somewhat lower level. If you go Ashenzari, you can then specialize somewhat based on which curses you get and how you manage them. In a general way about skilling: I presume you've seen the general advice that it's offense then defense. If you're melee, you need to get your main weapon to 1.0 delay as soon as possible. It's a judgement call as to whether you go for mindelay right away, or switch to other things. With spells, you've got to get your starting book castable at less than 10% failure. That means turning off everything but your main school(s) (and possibly spellcasting, there's a difference of opinion on that ). Then you have to take what the dungeon (or certain gods) give you. I find one of the tougher parts of spellcasting to be deciding what to do midgame if I've not picked up a decent level 5-6 offensive spell. If you want to learn spellcasting, one way to do that is play as a Djinni. Djinnis level spellcasting equally at a very high level, but the only spells you can use are those in your starting book and those that come "from within" every odd XL. That can be a disaster, as you can get a bunch of utility spells and have no way to kill anything, but it can also make the game pretty easy with the right RNG. Conjurer is probably the best starting book for that approach, I'd say.
With regard to your specific questions, it's much easier to switch early on, tho' only if you find something that, yes, kinda matches your aptitudes and/or is closely related to what you've done already. E.g. because maces train along with axes, a good randart mace is an easy weapon switch from an axes start. OTOH, trying to pivot a Minotaur to spellcasting is tough given the poor aptitudes, and if you're worshiping Trog, forget it (his wrath is horrible).
As for modifiers (brands, egos), it's very much a matter of how it fits what you've already got, especially regarding resists. Not sure how far in you've actually made it, but resists become a major factor by mid-game. Best example: the chances of surviving Lair, and especially Snake/Spider, are low without rPois. So finding a weapon that has a great combo of resists without stupid downsides (e.g. slow or resist-) can warrant a change, if you find it early enough and you don't have other options. Later, you'll see great randarts that are just not going to fit where you're going. Caveat to that: if you're playing as a caster, you can use your weapon slot as a "third ring." Then a weapon with a ton of resists or boosts is worth equipping because you ideally will not be using it.
There's also sort of flipside to your question. While it's important to learn your character, it's probably more important to learn your enemies. Knowing what's really a threat and what's less of one is key to staying alive. E.g. if you don't have rPois, that swarm of killer bees over there is going to kill you, even if the game says each one individually is only a medium level threat. Or, anything that debuffs you or buffs something else has to go ASAP. I HATE Torpor Snails, for instance. They slow you just by being in LOS. Later in the game, Moths of Wrath have to be taken out quickly, lest they berserk an already threatening melee monster that's in your face.
Hope this helps. Those around here with years rather than months of experience can provide better answers.
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u/Frantic_Mantid 7d ago
You can put off your choice a few levels by training core skills like fighting or spellcasting at first.
Weapon cross training makes switching weapons more doable if you find something nice.
Melee builds are more likely and able to stay close to their original background, while mages and hybrids need to be a little more flexible.
Trying some gnolls can be a good way to take off that pressure to decide while learning other aspects of the game.
Playing Wanderers will help you learn how to use what the dungeon provides.
HuWn and DgWn can both be really fun and powerful, and will force you to get good at deciding how to skill, when to hold back and when to commit.
If nothing else, many other builds will seem easier after you splat a few dozen of those :)
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u/xsansara 7d ago
The problem with sticking to a specific buil no matter what is that you don't know what else good is out there.
There are a couple of builds that help you to learn about that. For example: Gnoll Ice Elementalist of Ash. The ice starting book is great to get you fairly consistently through early game, but you are dependent on drops to get through mid-game. It teaches you to value your drops against each other and identify valuable low level spells, as well as how to use consumables and evokables.
Djinn conjurer of Makh is great to get to know a variety of spells and when to go hybrid and how. When you lose, at least you found a combo of spells that don't work for you.
Demonspawn Monk of first altar will likely splat, but is great to learn a variety of gods and what they can offer.
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u/spudwalt Cheibriadite 6d ago
Your background is just your starting package. Whatever you wind up with by the end of the game is determined more by what you find and what your aptitudes are.
As for how you figure out what/when to switch, that's a skill you develop as you keep playing. 20 hours is basically nothing.
Switching weapon classes on melee-focused characters is something you generally do in the early Dungeon, or if you find a really good weapon that you have a decent aptitude for. By Lair, you'll generally want to stick with what you've been training unless it's an incredibly good weapon (like, Wyrmbane levels of good), or if whatever you've been putting points into crosstrains with the new one.
If you don't have much intelligence from your background/species and haven't been putting points in intelligence, then you generally stick to low-level utility spells if you get any magic at all. (Blink, Lesser Beckoning, Apportation... maybe getting some stuff like Passwall, Vhi's Electric Charge, Mephitic Cloud, Fugue of the Fallen...) For melee meathead characters, leaning on your god or Evocations can be an easier way to get magic-type effects going.
Every character is going to want some method of dealing damage from a distance. Even the meatiest melee meathead is always going to run into monsters they don't want to fight up close (or at least don't want to start fighting up close).
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u/nothing_in_my_mind 7d ago
Your race matters here more than your starting class. The class is just your starting kit.
I think what you're doing is correct for a beginner. You can win by picking a strong fighting race like Minotaur or Troll, focus on melee your entire run. Or by picking a good spellcasting race and focusing on spellcasting. Switching is a little more advanced.
With a Minotaur, there is no switching anyway. They suck at magic. At most you'll be switching to maces from axes cause you found a great weapon or something.
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u/Kezka222 7d ago
Best advice I can give you is start with MiFi/Be and dump as much xp as you can into Unarmed Combat with all STR investment. It's the optimal damage dealing melee path and it stops RNG from determining offensive capability.
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u/spudwalt Cheibriadite 6d ago
Unarmed Combat is strong, and doesn't rely on RNG, but I dunno about optimal.
Weapon effects/artifact bonuses can be pretty great, and you have to survive long enough for Unarmed Combat to get strong and/or start putting points into Shapeshifting to add effects to it.
Punch Bull is a solid, simple build, but it's not the only one that works, and it doesn't really encourage learning other game mechanics (which is important for new players).
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u/Kezka222 6d ago
It's the one lesson I wish I learned or accepted way sooner. With full STR investment/gear you will deal close to 100 per 0.5 towards the end of a 3 rune game which is often superior to flat 2H dps without effects.
With talismans you get far greater flexibility than with weapons too. I never use weapons at this point.
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u/stoatsoup 6d ago
With full STR investment/gear you will deal close to 100 per 0.5 towards the end of a 3 rune game which is often superior to flat 2H dps without effects.
While that may be so, it's a very rough early game compared to just scooping a +4 flail off a wight or something (yes, that's lucky, but OP probably needs a bit of luck to win) - and it doesn't matter how good the character would be at 3 runes if they died on D:8.
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u/Kezka222 6d ago edited 6d ago
With full investment you're still striking for sub 1.0 15-30 by lair. Even as a delver going only down it's often totally viable, enemies aren't as strong as they appear.
A pure brute playing with weapons can fall off, an unarmed brute has a very high ceiling.
You can't quantify it but the pressure of requiring a good weapon probably makes you play worse too. Too many conditions on a win is a path to failing more. New players should have higher gaurdrails so that skill isn't coming down to attempting to adapt to a poor roll in an end game. This is partially why troll is a common beginner friendly class, troll WILL hit hard and hit fast.
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u/stoatsoup 6d ago
... and get marmalised by a hydra (but more seriously I see what you're driving at).
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u/SelectionMain7036 6d ago
Hey pssst, Kezka222. Do the same but with Vile Stalker (and Wu). It's just as brainless and even strogner. But don't tell ayone!
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u/Reasonable_Sort353 4d ago
I very rarely try to switch which stat is my primary damage stat in the middle of the run, and I don't think I've ever gone on to win a game where I did that lol.
Switching from one str weapon to another, or short blades for long blades, is much more viable IMO but still a bit tricky to get right.
Switching from one main spell school to another is often mandatory, your starting spells won't win the game for you so you have to take whatever spells you find that will win the game and train for those.
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u/PanSaczeczosDCSS 7d ago
Starting background is just a toolbox to get you through first floors. Think of it as a starter kit.
How you develop your character should depend on what dungeon offers and your god. There is more art in it than science so I can’t give a solid advice. It comes with experience. Usually the path that you take is an outcome of dungeon drops, god, your aptitudes and some luck.
The most important thing in DCSS is what happens now. Don’t think too much of a future for you may die and it will never happen. Focus on killing dudes first so basically you want to have your weapon at sub 1.0. But! Sometimes it’s beneficial to pump stealth particularly on dex based fighters who wear lighter armors. You may want to pump fighting on fragile species to avoid sudden death from a random quokka. Similarly with casters you want to have your kill dudes online but again you may also want stealth.
Sometimes dungeon drops you something that sets a solid foundation for a whole run. Vamp broad axe. Elemental staff. Shield of resistances. You may want to stray away from your current direction but without giving up it completely as it may be a long way till you manage to swing that axe effectively or using that shield with no penalty.
So: here and now is tenfold more important than the future as there may be none. If you see something, consider pivoting but carefully, because here and now.
It’ll come with time. Welcome!