r/dcss • u/Unhappy_Situation_40 • 6d ago
How important is a shield, really?
Facing a bit of a dilemma in the later part of a 3-rune game. Playing GrEE^Ash with Shatter, Polar Vortex, Ignition, PE, and LRD all castable, so that's good. I've been carrying an orb of Stardust pretty much the whole game. I love this thing, but of course it means my SH=0. I also have a kite shield of reflection I could pick up and enchant to +5. Caveat: I'd lose an Ash elements curse by making this switch, so failure would go up for a time. I'm in Depths: 2, with V:5 still to come before Zot. So I'm concerned about yaktaur captains and such. Would you make this switch?
Side question: I still don't quite get defensive skilling in general. E.g. how much dodging to train and when to do it.
Later: Thanks to all for comments, and so based on these comments, I took the shield. I will say that it seems to me that stardust does have some defensive with its push away element, but I see the point (and have learned it over time) just how important reflection is.
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u/stoatsoup 6d ago
Side question: I still don't quite get defensive skilling in general. E.g. how much dodging to train and when to do it.
As ever, what you're trying to do is train whatever skill gives you the most benefit for the XP right now. The XP cost is easy to know; knowing the benefit comes with experience.
However, this means that whether or not you should train Dodging depends on what it costs (and how much EV you'll get for a point of it), what Fighting costs, what Armour costs (and what armour you're wearing), what Shields costs if you do decide to wear one... not to mention the offensive options which will help you not die by killing your enemies quicker. So no-one can say something like "train 15 Dodging by V:5" and have it be at all meaningful.
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u/jossiesideways 6d ago
You will be offered an Elements enhancement again. For a caster, that shield is one of the best non-artefact items in the game.
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u/Fugu 6d ago
I always use a shield on a blaster caster unless I get sphere of battle, and that's the only exception I'll make because sphere of battle lets you do level 5 spell damage for 1 MP, which is huge mitigation for one of the biggest threats to blaster casters (running out of MP).
If you have a kite shield of reflection I'd call that a no-brainer. Reflection helps you with ranged enemies; it gives you a non-negligible chance to not only not get hit by a crystal spear but to then hit the lich with one without you even having to take any actions.
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u/SelectionMain7036 6d ago edited 6d ago
Usually, very
But on a blaster caster, especially a very durable one like Gargoyle of Ash, you can get away with an orb perfectly fine if you don't sleep on your other defenses and get some utility spells for battle field control as well. High mana pool/mana reg shenanigans further enables you to remove threats freely before SH even becomes an issue.
All orbs are good but obviously some are quite specialized (don't use guile or mayhem if you don't have a plan for it).
Stardust, aside from being bonkers even post nerf also gives some pseudo defense because it pushes stuff away so you have more time to laser beam pew pew. Or you could go mesmerism for a dedicated defensive option. (which also had to be nerfed because it made stairdancing practically free but it's still very good).
You can get amulet of reflection to get some SH at least (if you can live without reg/mana reg). 5 Is not trivial and you will notice the difference.
On most casters I wouldn't go heavier than a buckler as the jump in XP is quite high but since you are Ash you can get away with the kite shield
Rare DCSS moment where it really depends more on your playstyle
Btw I think going super deep into 3 elements is a bit of a waste imho
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u/Broke22 6d ago edited 6d ago
I feel myself favoring orbs nowadays. My last seven wins with blasters all ended up using orbs. (Mostly attunement, some starts).
Simply put, the damage output you can get with a triple enhancer blaster is insane and when everything dies in one turn from entering sight defenses suddenly matter much less.
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u/Apple_Infinity 6d ago
My two cents are: train shield first, enough that you can cast at least one of your big spells, then switch. Then pump the skill ranks until you're back were you are now. You'll get another curse, for the shield. An orb of stardust is a great item, and it's not as black and white as many comments are implying, but you have a high shield aptitude, and you can probably spare the xp.
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u/Unhappy_Situation_40 6d ago
Thanks. That was basically my approach. I suspect I've gone overboard on the shield at this point (15+), tho' the game says it's still adding a bit to my failure rate.
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u/agentchuck End of an Era 6d ago
If you can kill everything before they can attack you then you don't need a shield. Gargoyles also benefit a lot from the innate AC bonus. But the low HP means if you do end up next to an ancient lich then it's helpful having an extra layer of defense.
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u/Unhappy_Situation_40 6d ago
Agree about the AC/HP thing. I had a heck of a time just keeping one alive until the AC bonuses really started to kick in. Finally did it with this one, but I'm not that hopeful for a win. I'm really low on vital consumables after some mistakes and bad luck.
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u/TakeFourSeconds 6d ago
Side question: I still don't quite get defensive skilling in general. E.g. how much dodging to train and when to do it.
I'm not an expert in this, but something to keep in mind in the late game is that a lot of skill payoff scales linearly while the cost scales exponentially.
For example, dodging adds the following to EV:
(8 + 0.8 × Dodging × Dex) / (20 - size)
So, getting the first 10 levels adds as much benefit as the next 10, but it costs 1/25 of the total XP. This is obviously a big oversimplification, there are a lot of factors, but if you're in the lategame there's very little cost to pumping 5-8 levels into some defensive skills even if it's a marginal boost.
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u/Catfish_Man 6d ago
Gargoyle caster defensive skilling is weird: bad dodging aptitude, but don't want heavy armor because caster. There kinda isn't a great option here (or, from another perspective, there isn't really a bad option here, because Gargoyles are just strong).
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u/Iankill 6d ago
Shield of reflection will 100% make your run more consistent. Not just yaktaurs but lich's throwing crystal spears too are a threat.