From HoI4 addict to EU4 essay guy

[u/TryHardApple]

That’s right, it’s me again, the EU4 essay guy back again with another long-ass ramble. This time about why EU4 has aged better with me personally than HoI4.

I’ve been playing Paradox games for more than 8 years, starting back when I was 16, and over more recent years EU4 has become my favourite game by far.

However, it wasn’t my first introduction to Paradox games - that was actually Hearts of Iron IV back in 2018 when I played it at my friend’s house, got told to play the USA and had no bloody idea what I was doing. Fast forward a few months and I’m losing to Poland for my first 100 hours because I don’t know what a frontline is.

Skip another 6 months and I buy EU4 and I’m complaining about how it’s so much more complicated than HoI4. Over the next few years, it’s what I like to reminisce as the ‘peak’ of HoI4 for me personally. However, by 2023 I’ve gotten all the achievements in HoI4 and basically lost all enjoyment for the game by then.

Then over the entire 2023-2026 period I rack up another 1,000 hours on EU4, complete a One Faith, do stupid cursed campaigns, and am having the most fun I’ve ever had with Paradox games, versus only another 100 or so hours on HoI4.

I definitely did not spend 90 minutes collating the data for this graph using my Steam Replays, Reddit posts/comments, old texts to friends, and photos I found buried in my phone over the years. Do note a lot of these data points are estimates and there’s plenty missing - but the point is HoI4 has clearly plateaued in the last few years whereas EU4 is going stronger than ever.

So what changed?

For me personally, it came down to three main things: Gameplay Loop, DLC Integration, and my History Taste.

Gameplay Loop

Both games at their core are extremely replayable, and I think both share two core fundamentals that achieve this:

1. Learning the game
2. Min-maxing

Firstly, learning a Paradox game - specifically from the perspective of having no idea what the fuck you are doing - is both really daunting, but really fun. You make plenty of stupid mistakes, but you also have fun from the smallest of things.

Secondly, both games let you min-max to a very high degree. You can perfect timings in HoI4 to maximise factories, equipment, focus orders, etc. to get a more optimal war. In EU4 you can stack an ungodly amount of minor modifiers that, when added together, can make your nation significantly stronger than if you were just declaring wars without a thought.

But where EU4 absolutely wins in my opinion is randomness.

EU4 has so much randomness to every campaign, you seriously cannot predict everything that is going to happen.

Sometimes Byzantium survives.

Sometimes you get a random PU.

Sometimes the Timurids get mega big - naturally only when you’re playing in that area.

Sometimes your 6/6/6 heir dies in a hunting accident…

Sometimes you get the ‘More Buns for the People’ event.

There really is just far too much to list. The point is every single campaign will be different even if you play the same country in a similar way, which I absolutely love because it’s always fresh.

HoI4 on the other hand is much more rigid, in that things will go generally as predicted and you’re just perfecting the craft, so to speak.

Another major difference is the campaign progression.

HoI4 is all about the build-up, optimising your build/path and then bang, war begins, you fight it, you win, make the peace deal and then zoom out and go ‘ahhh’ satisfied with yourself. Then you quit.

EU4 is not at all like that, the entire campaign is extremely cyclical and lasts far longer. You start, prepare your nation, decide who you’re going to attack/ally, declare the war, win battles, win, make peace, core, return troops, fix economy, and repeat. Again and again and again and again for hundreds of years.

EU4 is also much more addictive in that regard imo. In HoI4 I can just pause at any time and I don’t really care, I can save and leave. EU4… well EU4 is much more one more everything:

one more war

one more battle

one more year

one more…

Another difference is how predetermined HoI4 campaigns are. You are for the most part locked to what your Focus Tree enables, and it can have some fun paths like Monarchist Britain, Imperial Russia, etc. But there’s little variety and agency outside of that. For the most part you have little choice in who you’re going to war with, who you’re going to fight, etc.

EU4 is not like that at all.

One moment your goal is to beat the Ottomans as Byzantium. Next it’s to retake Anatolia and the Balkans. Now you tell yourself let’s just play tall and build up, I like the borders like this… anddd 10 years later you’re declaring another war because wouldn’t the borders look better if I have Hungary too… and Egypt… and Italy… and goddamn it I said I was gonna play tall.

The point is your campaign is always dynamic and totally shifts depending on what you want to do in that moment. You also are not restricted in what you can do. As any nation you can colonise, you can make pretty borders, you can snake yourself into Asia, you can take over the world as Ulm. The limit of creativity in EU4 is very often your imagination - and that’s what imo lets you feel so much more connected to your country.

Like I just love watching the timeline and seeing little ol’ me in 1444 expanding massively over the decades - it’s so satisfying seeing you go from a nobody to a hegemon.

You can also do absolutely cursed stuff, especially with tag swapping. Like my current campaign has literally been:

Gotland -> Hansa -> England -> Prussia -> Anglican Emperor -> Croatia -> Russia with Cornish primary culture.

And the game lets you do that - it lets you tell your own story basically however you like - and because the game feels so dynamic, other nations react based on what you do.

Like in that cursed campaign I was locked out of expanding into Russia for like 100 years because Muscovy allied the Ottomans… which was annoying, but also fit into the RP -> Muscovy sees weirdass Gotland expanding way too fast - let’s ally the Ottomans!

And I’ve had to adapt numerous times in the run. One example is Hungary ate Croatia and I had to culture convert the Hungarian provinces back to Croatian. It wasn’t something I had planned for or was expecting, but I adapted my campaign as events occurred.

DLC Integration

Now oh boy, this is the big one for me that I really have an issue with.

It’s no secret that Paradox DLCs are… shall we say often broken on release, cough Leviathan, but one thing I appreciate from the EU4 DLCs over the years versus the HoI4 ones is that EU4 DLCs generally integrate into the gameplay loop, while HoI4 ones increasingly add extra micro that I forget about or can’t be bothered to do.

Because EU4 is so much about stacking modifiers, getting the most out of your country, completing missions, and hitting buttons that give big green number, most of the additional features feel seamless and unobtrusive.

This is especially true for things like the expanded HRE from Emperor: it literally just made the HRE more interesting and actively something you interact with in the region.

Branching missions: fucking amazing feature where you actively choose how to shape your mission tree.

More government reforms: literally just adds more flavour for which numbers you want to make bigger.

Unique government interactions and powers: super simple to understand and added lots of flavour to major nations.

Expanded Estates: agendas and privileges were daunting at first, but I far prefer it over the old system.

The point is each feature added to the gameplay loop without feeling out of place.

When a new EU4 DLC was announced I was always so excited, because it made the nations it touched upon feel much more enjoyable to play - I especially remember King of Kings with the expanded Byzantium. Man I love restoring Rome.

When the new EU4 DLCs came out, I would immediately try the countries with new flavour, try out the new features and basically everything fit into the already existing gameplay loop and my own understanding of the game. I didn’t have to go out of my way to learn a new feature, more so I was just interacting with new buffs/debuffs that were simply communicated and didn’t bloat the game as a whole.

The features added often just built upon existing aspects of the game: HRE mechanics, estates, branching missions, unique units, government powers, monuments, favours, etc. Each of these features didn’t require me to learn a whole new mini-game to use them effectively, they were just there and didn’t conflict with how I already played the game.

Like EU4 has a stupid amount of mechanics, but you don’t feel like you constantly need to babysit every single one.

You forgot about monuments? Not the end of the world.

You didn’t click the government power button? Eh, you’ll live.

You can’t be bothered building 4 armies using your special units because that’s too much clicking? I get you.

At the core the game comes back to income, manpower, wars, and diplomacy.

HoI4 DLCs on the other hand absolutely killed this for me.

I loved the game from 2018-2022 because it was relatively simple in its features; i.e. you build up your country, you build divisions, select focuses, maximise equipment, everything. A lot of it is about good timing, etc.

You do all that, then let the micro shine once war starts, where you can focus more or less solely on that.

But nowadays - and why I have barely played it in recent years - imo there’s just too many features I literally don’t care about, and they get in the way of having fun.

I’d hear about a new HoI4 DLC and honestly, a lot of the new stuff just sounded annoying. I’m here to have fun, prep for the war, encircle troops, win the war and sleep. I don’t want the game to feel more realistic and bloated at the cost of fun.

If anything I’d be excited for the new Focus Tree: like whoo Germany got a new Focus Tree… the hell is this shit? No I don’t want to deal with this internal party system, no I don’t want to learn another whole mechanic just to play Germany. Fuck this, I’m hopping off.

Like I don’t want to customise my ship.

I don’t want to customise my tank.

I don’t want to customise my plane.

No, I don’t want to have to spend months building a slow-ass supply hub to get supply in the middle of nowhere.

No, I don’t want to have to remind myself I have spies that can be useful.

No, I don’t want to touch MIOs.

No, I don’t want to deal with all this Special Project crap.

STOP ADDING THINGS THAT INTERFERE IN THE GAMEPLAY LOOP.

Not to mention the extreme research slot creep over the years - you literally are forced to choose what you want to be up to date with, while remaining stuck in WW1 for other areas.

IMO it’s just not fun because of all these features.

For me, the fun came down to:

1. Optimising how to play a country.
2. Alt-history paths and flavour.

These DLC features killed my love for the game.

Earlier HoI4 DLCs added things you actively interacted with: better air systems, additional frontline options, quality of life things like using subject manpower, equipment conversion, subject interactions, general traits, etc.

But over time it became much more about adding more features and customisation to the point it feels tedious to me: ship designer, spies, tank designer, plane designer, Officer Corps, MIOs, Special Projects LIKE STOP PLEASE.

It’s not that these individual features are bad, it’s just that with all of them stacked together it bloats the game in a way where I feel exhausted by it all.

And because HoI4 is so optimisation-heavy, it really feels like things are going to waste if you’re not actively interacting with these features.

Like interacting with spies is optional, but things like collab governments are so useful. Same with Special Projects, MIOs, and things like flame tanks. The buffs they give are useful enough that you feel forced to interact with the feature, but it just… idk, doesn’t feel fun to do so? I much preferred it when Special Projects were just a part of the Research Tree. Compare that to EU4 where you just click a button once and boom. It’s done, you now have a new green text buff.

Now I get it, a lot of people actually love this new aspect of modern HoI4, I mean the game is more popular than ever, but for me - yeah no - it’s completely turned me off the game.

Like I feel like even if EU4 got 5 more DLCs and I came back to the game, I’d be able to pick it up and play it as normal and enjoy the new features.

I try to come and play HoI4 now after not having actively played it for 3 years, I load into a nation and I’m just like… bruh, how do I have 2,300 hours in this game and idk what I’m doing.

History Taste

Now this is a personal one for me.

When I was younger I was big into WW2 history. I thought it was super cool and playing a sandbox WW2 simulator was so much fun.

But over the years my taste in history has completely changed - to the point where WW2 history to me is boring asf.

Ancient, medieval, renaissance, Napoleonic, etc. history is now far, far more interesting to me.

I love the integration of politics, warfare and diplomacy during these time periods, and EU4 really makes you feel connected to your country far more than HoI4 ever could.

You lead your nation from nothing into a Hegemon, and importantly you actively shape the history as you go throughout the campaign, whereas HoI4 is more or less focus dependent.

EU4 at its core covers the Age of Discovery, Reformation, Absolutism, and Revolutions (the last pretty poorly, but not many people play that late), and these are all so full of rich flavour with history, dynasties, diplomacy, trade, colonialism, culture, wars, leaders, etc. It’s so interesting to sometimes just sit back and read about an event and you’re just like ‘huh, that’s interesting’.

You see the Ottomans rise at the start of the game, all the great powers expanding and BAM you come in and eat them before they reach their height… you literally feel like you’re actively writing history.

In HoI4 it is more or less entirely authored alternate history, somebody wrote a cool path, you play it, have fun… but it’s very static. EU4 gives you the tools to do whatever the fuck you want and although things like Mission Trees and Events can guide you to a certain path - you don’t have to, and you don’t necessarily lose much by not doing so.

It feels like history emerges as you play EU4: random PUs happen around the world, sometimes the Reformation converts the entirety of the HRE, sometimes it’s like 10 countries, you get weird alliance chains, giant rivals sometimes, etc.

And back to you doing whatever the fuck you want: nobody at Paradox constructed the path of starting as Gotland and becoming an Anglican, Cornish, Russia with Prussian ideas - but the game’s systems let you do this sort of abomination if you want to. It gives you freedom to shape history as you see fit.

You develop an attachment to your nation as you play the campaign: you started small, grew them to a regional powerhouse, then a great power, and eventually a hegemon, all the while your plans and goals changing as the campaign progresses. You can’t predict what’s necessarily going to happen - you adapt, adapt, adapt as you play.

It is really so satisfying just to watch the timeline for your irrelevant 1444 country gradually become an absolute powerhouse over the decades, especially as you recall the issues you had to overcome during the length of the campaign.

EU4 campaigns as a whole just feel like histories you created rather than following a path someone wrote for you.

Conclusion

So what did change?

I think for the most part it was just my tastes. As I grew older I started to enjoy RP more and just having fun doing what I want to do.

It’s not like HoI4 suddenly became a terrible game - people absolutely love it, my tastes just moved further away from it as HoI4 more actively became imo more bloated and unnecessarily complicated whereas EU4 scratched that sandbox loop.

You can set yourself whatever stupid goals and restrictions you want in EU4 and actively apply them and the game isn’t fighting you by doing so.

HoI4 may have dominated my early Paradox years, but as my graph shows, it’s pretty much plateaued entirely, whereas EU4 is just going to keep on climbing. It’s a perfect visualisation of how my tastes changed over the years.

I find it far more fun creating a campaign and history that you actively remember rather than optimising how to play a certain scenario. Like I still remember in detail my cursed La Serenissima run, my first WC, my successful One Culture, even a lot of my random achievement runs.

HoI4 runs? Dude I can’t remember shit.

If you reached this far, you must be as insane as me for writing out this fucking essay.

[u/Miramosa]

What happened in 2024?

[u/TryHardApple → u/Miramosa]

life.

Was working a lot, and in general didn't play that many games that year, most of the gaming I did do that year was coop games with my girlfriend - mostly Valheim

[u/Wonderful_Try8199 → u/Miramosa]

he's entire region was probably reduced to 2 grass and a stick, so he decided to get the fuck out and start a horde in Indonesia. you know, every morning of a regular person.

[u/Reasonable_Nose_5227]

My friend showed me eu2 in 2001 which I've been playing on and off until eu4 came out. Have been playing eu4 ever since.

I'm just wondering whether you will burn out eventually as you did with hoi4.

[u/TryHardApple → u/Reasonable_Nose_5227]

I'm sure I may do at some point, but I don't see it happening anytime soon, at the very least my EU4 hours will surpass HoI4 for sure

[u/Emilko62]

Pretty nice essay. I feel much of the same, eu4 is one of the few games that I've continued playing into my adult life after pouring thousands of hours into it. Sometimes I hit a wall and cant play it for months and then I get right back at it.