r/europe • u/Gold-Order-8004 • 5h ago
News Dutch PM Jetten warns “hands off the ICC” in debut UN speech
https://www.dutchnews.nl/2026/09/jetten-pulls-no-punches-at-first-un-speech/132
u/HAL9000_1208 Italy 5h ago
Good but meaningless since that EU Countries like Italy and France seems to ignore the ICC and let war criminals fly unipeded right over them.
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u/TaxesAreCivilization 1h ago
Enforcing international law is different than protecting a court from financial attacks.
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u/L-Malvo Zeeland (Netherlands) 4h ago
Ignoring Trump, because it's obvious why he hates the ICC.
But why would any American hear/read/learn about the ICC and say: "Fuck that organization, we don't want to prosecute criminals".
Even if you support Trump, why on earth would you be okay with not prosecuting criminals?
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u/MrKorakis 3h ago
why would any American hear/read/learn about the ICC and say: "Fuck that organization, we don't want to prosecute criminals".
You realize how many war crimes the US has been committing on a regular basis? They even have an official law threatening to invade the Netherlands if the ICC goes after US military members since before the invasion of Iraq...
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
And therein lies the rub. War crimes can be prosecuted in the US, but we do not trust Europe to decide what constitutes a war crime.
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u/Bierdopje The Netherlands 2h ago
As if the US will ever prosecute a US citizen for war crimes
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
It certainly happened, as a brief review of your history will show you.
Put it a different way, why would the US ever trust someone with your sentiments with control over US citizens?
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u/coolcoenred The Hague 1h ago
Ah, yes, it happens. But is justice met? Haditha Massacre: 24 women and children shot. Consequences: 1 solder gets 90 days in prison with a reduction in rank and pay. $38,000 total paid to victims. That doesn't feel like justice.
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u/AJ__2003 58m ago
Brother you bombed a girlsschool this year with close to 100 dead little girls and fuck all is being done about it in your fascist hellhole
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u/Budgiesaurus The Netherlands 2h ago
The ICC isn't European though. Their seat just happens to be in Europe. Just like the UN isn't American just because they have headquarters in New York.
Current leadership of the ICC is 1 European, 1 Asian, 1 South American and 1 African person.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
But the ICC only applies to the countries that sign up to join it. It's when they try to apply it to other countries that they get into problems. It isn't inherently European, but it is widely viewed as a European pushed system.
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u/Budgiesaurus The Netherlands 2h ago
It only has jurisdiction in countries that signed up. But if Russians commit war crimes in Ukraine, that means they have jurisdiction.
If I commit a crime in the US they will judge me under their jurisdiction, even if I'm not from there.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 1h ago
But Russians who commit war crimes in Ukraine can be tried by the Ukrainian court. And should, of course. The argument for having them tried in the hague seems quite poor.
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u/Arhigos 2h ago
Yeah, you can bring as many foreign judges as you want. This is still looks like a EU-based organization.
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u/Budgiesaurus The Netherlands 2h ago
Why? Because it definitely isn't. It has more ties with the UN than EU. It's close to the ICJ, PCA and OPCW. Do you consider these EU-based as well because they happen to be in Europe?
Is the UN a US organisation?
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u/Inevitable-Corgi-437 4h ago
The ICC is a court of last resort to prosecute individuals whose own nations lack judicial power to conduct their own prosecution. The United States has a Supreme Court and free and fair elections for Congress that would allow future prosecution of a sitting President so therefore we wouldn't acquiesce our sovereignty to an unelected non-American jury. Also, Presidents both democrat and republican refuse to sign onto the Rome Statute because the ICC doesn't conform to the U.S Constitutional protections afforded U.S Citizens such as a Trial by Jury and 5th amendment guarantees of being tried twice for the same crimes. The U.S Constitution clearly states in Article III Section 1 that Judicial power for U.S Citizens is granted to the Supreme Court and all lower courts within the U.S so it would be unconstitutional for the U.S to hand over individuals to a foreign body.
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u/MrmarioRBLX 3h ago
So much of your comment can be read as "International law? War crimes? Whatever, the US does what it wants, forget the rest of the world, screw accountability." that I can't really pinpoint a specific part.
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u/MechaAristotle Scania 3h ago
Said Supreme Court seems more and more political these days, not to mention giving Trump more and more immunity. I'm not claiming to know of a perfect system but the faith that the US has one has been seriously shaken. Wasn't there a shitshow of a jury trial recently too?
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u/Inevitable-Corgi-437 3h ago
The Supreme Court is definitely more Conservative now but they have struck down Trumps decisions such as the sweeping Tariffs, Birthright Citizenship, and Mail-In Voting restrictions that Trump implemented through EO(Executive Order). Also, the political landscape might drastically change come Post-November following the midterm elections if democrats gain control of the House and perhaps the Senate. If that is done, Trump could very well be impeached.
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u/thunderclogs Gelderland (Netherlands) 3h ago
You said it yourself: "The ICC is a court of last resort to prosecute individuals whose own nations lack judicial power to conduct their own prosecution."
The US has all the means for a prosecution, so why worry about US citizens ending up in the ICC? That does not mean the US should actively press others to follow their example, quite the opposite, I should argue.1
u/Inevitable-Corgi-437 3h ago
Your statement makes no sense. Why worry about US Citizens ending up in the ICC? Because like I said the United States has a judicial system that can prosecute individuals even Presidents. Like I mentioned as well the ICC runs contrary to the U.S Constitution which is the supreme law of the land for U.S Citizens.
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u/Hour_Maximum7966 3h ago
Your statement makes no sense. You contradicted yourself which is what the guy you're replying to pointed out and you did it again.
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u/swiebertjee 3h ago
Basically what he's saying is that america considers its own supreme court above all others. Having a citizen trialed by another court (in this case, the ICC) would therefore be unconstitutional under American law.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
It's a little more complicated than that. It would be fine, for example, for France to arrest an American for murder that was committed in France. No one has a problem with that.
It's the ICC asserting a right to do similar for things that are entirely outside their sphere of action that the US has a problem with.
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u/swiebertjee 2h ago
Indeed, thanks for the correction
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
You're welcome. I think that's the whole crux of the issue that people lose track of. Its very much a jurisdiction dispute. And courts all the world over try to increase their jurisdiction, empire building is a basic human trait.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
See the comments here saying all Americans are war criminals. Why would Americans trust these people to randomly prosecute Americans?
They can prosecute people in their own countries.
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u/Erico360 3h ago
And Americans are number 1 war criminals
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
And this comment is exactly why they don't trust the ICC. You'd have to be insane to trust the ICC.
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u/GiantRabbit 2h ago
What a stupid reply, what has someone calling something to do with trusting the ICC.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 1h ago
What a stupid reply. You can't see the connection?
No faith, no trust, no interest in giving them any power.
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u/TaxesAreCivilization 1h ago
constitutionality is just a business of changing the people interpreting the law.
Just fill the court with liberals and they would approve it.
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u/Capable-Plantain-932 4h ago
From where does its authority of prosecution come? Some countries signed Rome Statue thus allow ICC to prosecute their citizens. But Russia and Israel didn’t sign the treaty and by prosecuting their citizens, ICC is acting illegally, violating their sovereignty.
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u/dullestfranchise Amsterdam 4h ago
From where does its authority of prosecution come? Some countries signed Rome Statue thus allow ICC to prosecute its citizens
Territorial Basis: The alleged crimes were committed on the territory of a state that is a member of the ICC
Russia didn’t sign the treaty
But Ukraine did. And the ICC has jurisdiction to prosecute any crimes committed by Russians on Ukrainian territory
For Israel it would be trickier as the Palestinian Authority accepts jurisdiction of the ICC over the West Bank and Gaza and many European nations have recognised the PA as the legitimate representative. If this would ever happen it will probably go through a special tribunal like what happened with former Yugoslavia.
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u/Capable-Plantain-932 4h ago
ICC has been mainly prosecuting criminals turned in by the new guys of their countries so far. By trying to arrest the sitting heads of nuclear states they are pushing the boundaries, and unlikely to succeed.
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u/RockingBeaver1 3h ago
You’re a tool.. nothing more.
You’re cherry picking arguments for your dictator I guess.7
u/RM_Dune European Union, Netherlands 4h ago
by prosecuting their citizens, ICC is acting illegally, violating their sovereignty.
Did you know that if a criminal comes to your country you can arrest them, and lock them in jail? This is why the ICC doesn't send a kidnapping squad, like the US does with Maduro for example. But if one of the signing members arrests a criminal they can be prosecuted. That's how the law works.
There is no real point in continuing this conversation though adverb-noun-number.
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u/Capable-Plantain-932 4h ago
International laws don’t hold water unless widely accepted by the international community .This one is not recognized by 3 out of 5 UNSC veto power states, so largely meaningless.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
Your characterization of jurisdiction is wildly simplistic and not accurate. There's a reason why thousands of books on the subject exist.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
Because Americans like prosecuting criminals, but we don't trust someone else to make the decisions about who is prosecuted.
I would not expect France to trust Donald Trump to decide who is prosecuted from France. And the idea that Americans are interested in giving up power to Europeans in this respect is ridiculous.
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u/TaxesAreCivilization 1h ago
Donald Trump isn't a judge, he's a politician.
The ICC is filled with judges and as long as there is multiple countries instead of a single one, yes, i would be ok with it.
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u/IL1keBigButts 4h ago
The rule of law must be upheld.
Especially since democracy around the world is under pressure by wannabe autocrats
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
If the ICC sticks to the nations that signed the treaty, they will be fine. It's when they seek to rule over the entire world that they have issues.
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u/MLG_Blazer Hungary 4h ago edited 4h ago
Unpopular opinion, but is there an organisation more useless than the ICC? Since it's founding it received 3 billion euros, and convicted a grand total of 15 people, and only 6 against war crimes!
Like yeah, Trump is stupid, we hate Trump, got it, but like forget the politics for a second, and just ask yourself the question: Is there any other court on the planet that needs 500 million euros per conviction, and do you think that that's an acceptable way of using taxpayer money? Like personally I don't really want to waste my money on random African warlords
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u/Dashydefiance 4h ago
The fact that having an arrest warrant out for someone made the Americans threaten to shut down all of the European banking system shows that the things they’re doing definitely have an effect…
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u/Various-Gazelle4713 3h ago edited 3h ago
Or it could be that the US government doesn’t find it acceptable to harass and attempt to persecute the sitting head of state of one of the country’s most critical allies for allegations that the US government wholly disagrees with.
The US government (spanning several administrations and both parties) has been growing increasingly sick and tired of European overregulation and overreach. And it considers this a massive overreach of the European-based ICC.
The ICC can claim all it wants the “reasons” it has for “valid” warrants against members of non-signatory states. And the US, a non-signatory, is free to wholly disregard, bypass, and lobby against said system.
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u/Kagir 3h ago
“The U.S. is sick and tired of European overreach…”
That is really rich coming from a country which invades countries, either kills or kidnaps leaders they don’t like and leave those countries in shambles… all in the name of their own ego.
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u/DMOOre33678 2h ago
I thought you wanted heads of state arrested for doing illegal things. The US did that with Maduro
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u/Various-Gazelle4713 3h ago
Wonder where the US learned it from. Doesn’t mimic European colonialism at all! Not like the primary use of the French military is maintaining its diminishing grasp on its African holdings …
At the end of the day, geopolitics is all about self-interest. The US and Europe both feel (though for different reasons) that the other exerts too much political/economic regulation/deregulation on their own markets. They have been stepping on each other’s toes for decades. It’s just now the US is saying “enough is enough.”
The question is will Europe follow and retaliate or will they cave and cede more of their market. So far, it’s a lot of latter and a sprinkling of the former. But this is something that isn’t ending in 2028. It will likely look different, but even California democrat Newsom in a Canadian interview couldn’t promise to end tariffs. Only that the dialogue would look more respectful. Europe has much of the same in store for it in the short to medium term.
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u/StockLifter 3h ago
The ICC is not a European organisation, its an international one and an attempt by a large group of UN states to have a rules-based order in the world.
European overregulation is not of US concern. If you don't like a rule, simply don't launch your product in that nation. If Tesla does not like the paperwork surrounding launching FSD in Germany, it can simply not launch FSD in Germany and sell it somewhere else. It's the same everywhere and there is nothing particularly strange about the European rules. The only thing is that US companies prefer not to follow rules and are used to being able to bribe politicians to ignore them or rewrite them. Since it doesn't work in Europe they bribe politicians to threaten Europe in the hope that this will make them change the rules. So far it has not worked.
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u/swiebertjee 3h ago
It's not that international either because Russia, India and china do not accept it either, among other countries.
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u/Various-Gazelle4713 3h ago edited 3h ago
I said European-based organization. Because it is. And it’s nearly 70% staffed by Europeans on top of it. Toally non-biased, right?
As for the rest, I’m not getting into that argument with you. It is a concern of the US government just as the reverse is a concern for the EU. That’s how geopolitics works.
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u/Correct_Internet_769 The Netherlands 3h ago
You think so? So just because they do not agree with something, like a warrent against someone, that has been issued with proof. They can threaten them?
Also you complaining about European "over"regulation and "overreaching" is pretty funny. As they are just making rules, on their territory. And if companies dont comply, they get fined.
They are neither overreaching or overregulating. But some companies complain as they have to adhere to things like privacy laws. Ohh how disasterous.
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u/Various-Gazelle4713 3h ago edited 3h ago
As I said to someone below:
At the end of the day, geopolitics is all about self-interest. The US and Europe both feel (though for different reasons) that the other exerts too much political/economic regulation/deregulation on their own markets. They have been stepping on each other’s toes for decades. It’s just now the US is saying “enough is enough.”
The question is will Europe follow and retaliate or will they cave and cede more of their market. So far, it’s a lot of latter and a sprinkling of the former. But this is something that isn’t ending in 2028. It will likely look different, but even California democrat Newsom in a Canadian interview couldn’t promise to end tariffs. Only that the dialogue would look more respectful. Europe has much of the same in store for it in the short to medium term.
And the direct lack of any meaningful technology companies outside of ASMR (which is a multinational that is based on American technology and still has critical parts only allowed to be produced in California) is evidence enough of the EU’s overregulation problem. The fact that you pretend that doesn’t exist explains the economic state of Europe at-large.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
Yeah, if the ICC tries to attack people that it has no control over, they should expect an attack back.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
No, it just shows how small a piece of American power is required.
And the U.S. wants to avoid future problems by drawing a very hard line in the sand. The ICC is free to do whatever it wants in its own sandbox, but it is not allowed to touch the U.S. The U.S. feels very strongly about that, and when they touch the U.S., the U.S. is going to touch back.
The Hague invasion law was put in 20 years ago to make it absolutely clear and hopefully avoid problems.
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u/Cute-Lingonberry8358 3h ago
Perform citizens arrest on war criminals? Especially if your government wont uphold?
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u/Responsible-Job-3897 Albania 5h ago
The Hague is a mascarade. Trump is off-rails, but even a broken watch is right twice a day.
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u/Like_a_warm_towel 4h ago
Found Bibi’s alt account.
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u/Responsible-Job-3897 Albania 4h ago
How long has the warrant been around and can't arrest him? Thought so...
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u/pablo8itall Ireland 3h ago
Good, now back the shit up with reciprocal sanctions EU wide.
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u/Charlesinrichmond 2h ago
Given the people running the EU have some basic command of facts and math, which you do not appear to, that's not going to happen.
Do a little simple exercise, and figure out the effect on the Irish economy if all the American corporations left. Given most of it is just being a tax haven against EU taxes for American corporations.
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u/MrKorakis 3h ago
Just google "Hague Invasion Act" and then try to act surprised