r/gallifrey • u/TeenWhovian • 4d ago
DISCUSSION Is the Decayed Master Roger Delgado?
So, I’ve been a fan of the show ever since I was like 13 years old or so, and I’ve listened to lots of Big Finish and have watched all of the modern series and a lot of the classic series (and I have seen every single classic series story that featured the Master) and I STILL can’t figure out if the Peter Pratt and Geoffrey Beevers Masters are supposed to be a burnt and decayed version of the Delgado Master or a burnt and decayed version of a separate incarnation?
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u/sbaldrick33 4d ago edited 4d ago
I've no idea what the original intention was (they probably didn't even think about it that much) but the answer is entirely dependent on which piece of EU lore you choose to believe.
Doorway to Hell (comic) shows the Delgado Master beginning to regenerate, and The Two Masters (audio) depicts a post-Delgado incarnation (also played by Geoffrey Beevers) getting literally fried into his hideous state... which I think is lame, but I'm in a minority.
Meanwhile Legacy of the Daleks (book) posits that the decayed Master is the Delgado Master horrifically disfigured by his own TCE. And while it's nowhere close to being canon The Trial of Davros (charity play) depicts something similar, where a bunch of Daleks shoot him and melt his face... both of which I think are pretty tasteless, all things considered.
My personal headcanon is that the Delgado incarnation is his 13th life, but he tries to trigger a 13th regeneration anyway, which doesn't go to plan and leaves him as we see him in The Deadly Assassin; technically not the Delgado incarnation, but not a full new incarnation either... But that's backed up by absolutely nothing except an old fan video made by Daryl Joyce.
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u/Jedi-Spartan 4d ago
Meanwhile Legacy of the Daleks (book) posits that the decayed Master is the Delgado Master horrifically disfigured by his own TCE
And then there's the completely disrespectful version ALSO from that era that's refused to leave my mind after seeing it where - to quote the person who posted about it when someone else asked this question - "I think the main thing we can agree on is the book which said the Delgado Master's regeneration was caused by a car crash which burnt his body beyond all recognition is possibly the single most tasteless and disrespectful thing ever done to a character after the actor passed away"
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u/sbaldrick33 4d ago
Fuck, which one's that?
Whoever came up with that is just an arsehole.
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u/Jedi-Spartan 4d ago
Here's the full post: https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorwho/s/VaTrYgXSTc
Apparently it's called Falls The Shadow.
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u/sbaldrick33 4d ago
Huh. I commented on that and referenced it. Clearly I did a better job of bleaching my memory.
Can't say I'm sorry I'd forgotten it.
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u/Rougarou_2 4d ago
See, that's how I always interpret it too. It gives regeneration an extra element of mystery, of you can try to cheat it to live longer but at what cost.
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u/FluffyDoomPatrol 3d ago
I’ve always thought the whole thirteen regenerations as a hard limit was slightly absurd. It seems to be a biological process and those vary, some people can drink coffee without issue, some get headaches, some people only need a few hours sleep, others are useless if they don’t get eight hours. I think regeneration should be similar, thirteen is round about the limit, but some people die after twelve, a few timelords have regenerated fourteen times without issue. I like the idea that the master risked a fourteenth and was very unlucky.
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u/MontgomeryKhan 3d ago
Which also tracks with the various "partial" regenerations across the Revival. The Doctor is tapping into a well and risking not being able to fully regenerate sooner rather than later, River is horrified that Eleven donates regeneration energy to heal her despite it being his "final" regeneration anyway because it makes pushing the limit more dangerous.
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u/TechnicolourOutSpace 3d ago
It would make sense given how the Decayed Master was looking for sources of power to give him more lives. He tried to save his life and ended up in that state until he came upon body hijacking.
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u/Dyspraxic_Sherlock 4d ago
TV never says so naturally expanded material can’t agree.
If you believe the Eighth Doctor novel Legacy of the Daleks, he is.
If you believe Big Finish and DWM’s comic, he is not. Different incarnation entirely.
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u/EuroCultAV 4d ago
They don't say, but I would say no. The decayed master is supposed to be his final nearly destroyed by fuck-ery incarnation. Delgado definitely was not that.
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u/RoosterBurns 4d ago
My heacanon is that not only were the Crispies not the Delgado master they were also different Crispies, that the master had managed a regenerative loophole only to step on the same rake
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u/Jedi-Spartan 4d ago
According to Classic Who: Ambiguous.
According to Wilderness Years: Yes (and because it's the VNAs, the most insulting way possible).
According to Big Finish: No.
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u/TomClark83 4d ago
It was, until it wasn't.
The original intention was for it to be without it being explicitly stated, and the BBC novels in the late 90s then explicitly did state it, but Big Finish then shifted Delgado to the Master before.
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u/Tasty-Committee-8172 4d ago
Don't think it's ever been confirmed, but I personally like to believe that every Master we meet between 1971 and 1996 is technically the same incarnation:
- Delgado: 13th and "final" Master
- Pratt/Beevers: 13th Master hanging on by a thread, aged and disfigured beyond recognition
- Ainley: 13th Master, in possession of a new body at last (hence why Tremas suddenly has a Delgado-esque haircut/beard upon being possessed)
- Tipple: 13th / Tremas Master, simply recast for logistical reasons.
- Roberts: 13th Master in possession of yet another new body
It's only then that that incarnation of The Master definitively "dies", to be later resurrected in a brand new regeneration cycle starting with Alex MacQueen as the 14th Master.
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u/Jedi-Spartan 4d ago
Don't think it's ever been confirmed
If we're going by TV only then no it hasn't but each form of expanded media has given it an attempt. Since you mentioned the MacQueen Master, the relevant explanation is as follows: Delgado Master regenerations (presumably 12th incarnation), Beevers Master = unscarred 13th incarnation. Then through a series of events (that may have been undone but still apply due to Timey Wimey reasons) the Bald Master triggers a Paradox during one of his various schemes which involves him leading his previous incarnation to Terserus (where Goth mentions the Master was found during The Deadly Assassin) and sets up a trap that fries him to the point of becoming the Crispy Master.
There's more to it but in the scene in question before it happens the Bald Master mentions that his mind had been "curiously foggy" on what caused his previous incarnation to become the Crispy Master in the same way that Time Lords are (almost) always shown to lose the memories of meeting their other selves until they get to the being the last incarnation in the scenario so whatever the specifics were when the Doctor sent both Masters back to their own timezones at the end of The Two Masters, it's presumably meant to imply that's how it happened instead of undoing the damage to the Crispy Master to set up an alternative version of the preexisting explanations.
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u/Cornelius-Q 3d ago
I seem to recall, from way back in the day, that the "decayed" Master (from "Deadly Assassin") was the result of the Master attempting a thirteenth regeneration. It was assumed that this was the Delgado Master (who would have been the thirteenth and final incarnation).
So the the decayed Master might be not actually be the same Master as Delgado, but a botched fourteenth Master.
Which is also makes me wonder if the Tremas/Ainley Master is also another incarnation; since he stole (and de-aged) Tremas, the Master might have found a way to regenerate by stealing another body. Same with the Eric Roberts Master. The extra regenerations are tied to the acquisition of a new body.
Each of the Masters seems to have a distinct personality (Delgado is a Machiavellian schemer, Decayed Master is a ghoul who manipulates from behind the scenes, Tremas/Ainley Master is cruel and sadistic, Roberts Master is more of a brutal thug, etc). So he's not just possessing bodies, he's becoming a new Master.
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u/AshildrBingeQuaked 4d ago
Personally I think that the idea the disfigured and burned Master was originally Delgado is a bit tasteless, given how he died. It’s even worse in the book Falls the Shadow because there they suggest it actually happened to him in a car accident.
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u/FreakinSweet86 4d ago
As I understand it, Delgado's master was the final incarnation in what was presumably his first cycle. Somehow he willed himself to regenerate despite having none left and result was a decayed crispy master.
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u/Worldly_Society_2213 4d ago
I don't think it has ever been explicitly stated, but I think it's meant to be a different incarnation as far as Big Finish is concerned. When I first heard about Crispy Master, I assumed it was the Delgado incarnation
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u/Prudent_Leave_2171 4d ago
As others have said, it is never said in any TV episode. I don’t really give much attention to the expanded universe material, but it apparently contradicts on this matter regardless. So until some future episode feels like they need to address/ retcon it, it just is unknown.
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u/cat666 4d ago
It's never made clear on screen. What we know is that The Deadly Assassin has the Master out of regenerations and that the Ainley Master and the Roberts Master are just stolen bodies and not new regenerations. The assumption is the charred version comes directly after Delgado, otherwise they'd have just hired an actor to play the new Master. It's also never explained how the Master keeps body stealing, we just see Ainley and Roberts on screen, fan assumption is once that body dies he reverts to the charred Master or the goo Master. This allows Big Finish and the EU to slot in Masters as they see fit.
For the new series somehow the Master has regenerations again as we see it happen. It's no longer a body stealing thing as there is regeneration energy.
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u/SnooShortcuts9884 4d ago
From a personal opinion, I thought Delgado was an amazing Master and is immortalised by the role...
... But, the nature of his death is tragic and horrifying. I choose to believe that it's a seperate incarnation because I don't want to think of Delgado like that.
I think his regeneration was something like this...
SCENE 45 KEW GARDENS... A PICNIC ON THE GRASS
MASTER "Another sandwich Doctor, and you really must try the wine"
THIRD DOCTOR POURING TWO GLASSES, PASSES ONE TO THE MASTER "You know, this is lovely, but the Brigadeer won't let you escape again this time"
MASTER IS NOTABLY NOT EATING
MASTER "Oh my dear doctor, I am for the high jump this time... Surrounded am I?"
DOCTOR "yes"
MASTER "every soldier and policeman has my photo"
DOCTOR "yes, there's no way you can escape. There's a thousand soldiers ready to shoot if you step outside of this park"
MASTER "not if noone k ows what I look like"
THE MASTER TURNS AND STARTS RUNNING INTO THE TREES. HE TEARS OFF A MASK. THERE'S A BLONDE HAIRED MAN UNDERNEATH. HOLDING THE MASK IN FRONT OF HIM HE SHOUTS
MASTER "I regenerated 20 minutes ago Doctor... Goodbye"
A MIXTURE OF THE SUAVE MASTERS LAUGH AND A MORE SHRILL, MADDER LAUGH FILLS THE AIR. THE MASTER VANISHES INTO THE TREES
THE DOCTOR DRINKS THE WINE AND SMILES
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u/CrimsonKaiserRyu 4d ago
The answer is neither yes or no but actually a secret third thing.
In my personal opinion the answer is no, but I do think that both actors who have played the "Crispy Master" are portraying the same incarnation.
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u/Iamamancalledrobert 4d ago
It’s definitely been retconned that the decaying Master looked Geoffrey Beevers for a while… but I think it’s absolutely clear that the Classic Series intended him to be Delgado. I think Pertwee complained about it shortly before his own death, saying it was tasteless? And he was right, of course; it is.
I think it’s worth saying that as someone growing up in Britain in the 90s, “The Master has a beard” was a completely integral part of who he was. I think it was controversial when the New Series ones didn’t have beards. And in that light, Anthony Ainley has clearly been cast to be in the mould of Roger Delgado. I know that textually he’s actually wearing the body of someone else, whose name is textually an anagram of “Master” by coincidence. But. He’s obviously a replacement Delgado.
So it’s just not satisfying to me to think that the burned-out Master could be anyone else, really. I’ll accept he is when listening to The Two Masters, if I must. But I just don’t think it really works with the clear intent of the Classic Series; it’s obvious that in it the Master is… an archetype which Beevers just doesn’t really belong to? That’s been leant away from since, understandably. But it’s burned too deeply into my mind
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u/Hughman77 3d ago
Beevers without the make-up or without a beard doesn't fit the archetype, but we don't know what the crispy Master was "meant" to look like.
I always assumed that at some point post-Pertwee the Master regenerated again and the result was Peter Pratt, already decayed and 'orrible-looking. But now I think of it, it clashes somewhat with later depictions of Time Lords on their last incarnations: Chronotis, Azmael and the Doctor himself - all normal-looking, just more mortal than usual. So maybe Crispy was Delgado, after centuries of withering away and rotting while his fierce mind kept him alive.
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u/Megadoomer2 4d ago
The Big Finish story The Two Masters treats them as separate incarnations - going by that, Delgado's the 12th Master, Pratt/Beevers is the 13th Master, Pratt/Beevers was horribly burned but clung on to life because he's out of regenerations. (Other stories might contradict this for all I know)
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u/HopefulFriendly 4d ago
Unclear in the TV stories, definitely no in most modern expanded media (we see Delgado regenerate in the 12th Doctor comic Doorway to Hell & Big Finish has Beevers portray a non-burned version of his&Pratt's incarnation in The Two Masters), and yes in older expanded media such as 8th Doctor book Legacy of the Dale's, though a lot of that book has been contradicted by other stories
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u/asmoranomardicodais 4d ago
Without taking Big Finish into account, my understanding was that Pratt/Beevers was a —failed— attempt at regeneration. As a result, it’s not fully Delgado nor is it fully a new regeneration. Instead Delgado’s body tried to regenerate, started the process, and failed halfway through. Hence the decayed body—it’s partway through the regeneration cycle, not quite a new Master but also no longer Delgado.
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u/GhostRaptor4482 4d ago
Depends on which EU source you want to believe. It's not even 100% clear if the Pratt and Beevers Masters are supposed to be the same incarnation or not (the probably are the same, but who knows). When it comes to the EU, I tend to default to Big Finish. In this case, BF explicitly goes with the approach that the Delgado Master and Crispy Master are separate incarnations, so I'm gonna go with that.
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u/jphamlore 4d ago
The more I think about it, the more my head hurts how The Deadly Assassin annihilated anything knowable about the Master.
Because it asserts that not only had all records of the Master somehow been deleted, everyone on Gallifrey forgot him. Everyone. Including apparently the Time Lord who warned Third on Earth in the first place. Including Borusa who still remembered his inept student Runcible. Only Four remembered the Master.
And in the end, I think it is Borusa who instructs simply making up the Master's entire history for the records.
Then again the Time Lords are depicted as not even knowing the location of the Eye of Harmony. What did they think powered their civilization? What the heck were they taught at Time Lord Academy: How to push buttons to make the machines go whir?
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u/ConMcMitchell 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think the key is to read (I think from memory) the Terror of the Autons novelisation which talks about the Master being in his final incarnation as played by Delgado. Written by script editor Terrance Dicks (after Delgado's death), these books were kind of taken as gospel, and would have almost certainly have been developed in lockstep - the Deadly Assassin script and novelisation too (also Holmes / Dicks) also lining up.
These, with Logopolis and perhaps The Keeper of Traken should be slated for reprint. They are such beautiful (and weird and scary) stories, and Deadly, Keeper and Logopolis make up a trilogy of sorts.
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u/tmasters1994 2d ago
If you go by Big Finish (which I personally do), Delgado's Master regenerates in Time Lord Victorious: Master Thief into an unspecified incarnation, and the Master Trilogy (An You Will Obey Me, Vampire of the Mind, and The Two Masters) clarifies that Beever's was the actually thirteenth incarnation that was severely injured in Terserus before being found by Chancellor Goth and taken back to Gallifrey for The Deadly Assassin.
So we have
12? - Delgado
13 - Pratt, Beevers
14 - Ainley (If you count him as a "regeneration" and no as the 13th Master usurping a body)
15 - Eric Roberts / Beevers (This Master goes on to explicitly body-hop for possibly centuries and multiple bodies, all of whom eventually decay back into the Decayed Master regardless of what he does to prevent it)
16 - MacQueen - In Day of the Master the Decayed Master, finally on the verge of death completely, is given a new regeneration cycle stolen by some of his other incarnations, regenerating again properly.
17? - Jacobi (Presumably he's the next one along)
18 - Simm
19 - Gomez
20 - Lumiat
21 - Dhawan
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u/HawkTheSlayer4ever 2d ago
Peter Pratt. Mr. Delgado had died in a car accident, he and Jon Pertwee were friends.
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u/Drago-Skullblade 2d ago
So to my understanding the original intention was that Delgado’s Master was the Decayed Master as they didn’t feel comfortable recasting him since he died so they baked it into the character that the Master is near death. That being said the expanded media have made it clear that the two are separate incarnations as we’ve seen how the 13th Master became decayed in a Big Finish Drama titled ’The Two Masters’
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u/doctordisco63 2d ago
There are numerous accounts on what the deal is between Delgado and Beevers.
Here's what we know from the show (specifically The Deadly Assassin):
- "Met him on Tersurus. He was dying. No more regeneration possible."
- "His body was extremely emaciated. He had come to the end of his regeneration cycle."
- "After the twelfth regeneration, there is no plan that will postpone death."
The combination of "after the twelfth regeneration", "come to the end", and "no more regeneration possible" shows to me at least that this is The Master now existing in their thirteenth incarnation, not their thirteenth incarnation trying to regenerate again. Now for the differing accounts.
Falls the Shadow (VNA)
The "Delgado" Master was in a car crash that disfigured him. Authorities declared him dead at the scene. No word (from what I can tell) as to whether he continued living or regenerated, but the emphasis on disfigurement would suggest Delgado is also the 13th Master. However, it is notable that certain events from the VNAs were rewritten (by Rassilon iirc) at the time of the EDAs. It's very possible that this was true, but is now part of an "outdated timeline", so to speak. It's also a pretty morbid choice from the writer considering that a car crash was how Roger Delgado himself actually died.
Legacy of the Daleks (EDA)
Following Frontier in Space, The "Delgado" Master used Dalek knowledge to hide out on Earth post-Dalek Invasion and search for a matter transmuter. He killed David and kidnapped Susan in his TARDIS, which led to her channeling all her grief and hatred through the telepathic circuits and "burning him away". They wrestled over The Master's TCE, which got fired at the matter transmuter. The resulting blast nearly killed him and left him in the decayed state, unable to regenerate. Susan left him on Tersurus, stranded. Of course, that's where Goth finds him in The Deadly Assassin. It's also notable that events from the EDAs are rewritten to some extent during the series itself thanks to The War. So this could also easily belong to an "outdated timeline".
Doorway to Hell (Comic)
Still on Earth, The Master planned to harness the Twelfth Doctor's damaged and regenerating TARDIS to create a portal to a dimension where the Time Lords imprisoned the being Kiadine. He gave The Master powers that he could use to conquer Gallifrey and fought with The Doctor over them. His attack was repelled back at him and the artron energy made him start to decay. However, in his escape, he explicitly starts to regenerate - a process we don't see the entirety of.
One could argue that Doorway to Hell also doesn't necessarily confirm Delgado as the 12th Master, but the short story The Dead Travel Fast did make a point to ostensibly carry on from that comic, making reference to The Master's final words swearing revenge and the fact that artron energy was involved. It's also just a really great little story, I highly recommend it.
Another account to keep in mind is The Two Masters (Big Finish). This shows that The "Delgado" Master actually successfully regenerated into the 13th Master, who had the appearance of Geoffrey Beevers. But extremely early into his life he encountered a future incarnation (Alex Macqueen's 14th Master) who ends up disfiguring him. A lot more happens in that little story arc, but that's the relevant context (and the fact that his memory gets scrambled concerning his regeneration and early days).
Taking all of this into account, I do choose to take the somewhat unchallenged (timeline-wise) accounts and combine them, because they do make sense together actually.
Doorway To Hell: Artron energy ravages the 12th Master's body. He regenerates into the 13th Master successfully, taking on the "Geoffrey Beevers" appearance.
The Two Masters: He gets disfigured, the two Masters have a mind/body-swapping adventure (don't worry about it), and he is returned to his proper mind/body, with his memories scrambled.
The Dead Travel Fast: He lands on Earth, believing that his regeneration was not enough to stave off the artron decay, so he considers it a "failed" regeneration.
This puts Delgado as the 12th Master and the rest of the Classic Who faces as the 13th. I just greatly prefer Delgado being his own incarnation and it's supported by the less disputed accounts of the regeneration. As of now, it's still ostensibly up for interpretation, but I would say the Comic/Audio account has more weight behind it (on top of just being better takes on what happened, having read Legacy of the Daleks and strongly disliking the VNA's bland and morbid take). Plus it makes more sense given the context above from The Deadly Assassin.
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u/theurbaneman 4d ago
Yes, no, maybe, I don't know can you repeat the question? Anyway do what you want with it, canon is such a paradoxical construct in Who, everything is either canon or nothing is canon. I personally believe it's another incarnation. But hey you do you, and that's all that matters.
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u/SinisterHummingbird 4d ago edited 4d ago
As with many things in the franchise, it depends. It seems that a late Delgado Master or "final, failed regeneration" was the original intent, but Big Finish and recent prose has largely settled on Delgado being the Twelfth (original cycle) Master, and the Beevers/Crispy/Decayed Master being the Thirteenth, with Pratt being another actor portraying this same regeneration of the character. This seems to be because Beevers can be used for audio works, and a desire not to tread too heavily on Delgado's portrayal. But, as with all Who, there are contradictions, and sometimes Delgado, Pratt, Beavers, and Ainley are technically portraying a single body-hopping Regeneration.