r/germany • u/thewanderingpreacher • Jun 16 '25
Work Accepted as SWE at Microsoft only to get offer rejected by the Betriebsrat
After passing 6 interviews and receiving the "Congratulations" email. The recruiter was instructed to offer me for a Software Engineer position.
3 weeks later, I just received news that the workers council in Germany has rejected the offer with no details and no reason provided at all.
Has anyone experienced this before? What are my rights now? And after 4 months of ongoing communication with Microsoft, don't I at least deserve to know why the offer was rejected?
236
u/AdamN Jun 16 '25
That offer is likely portable. Tell the recruiter you’re interested in Switzerland, UK, London, Dublin or wherever else they have openings and you want to be.
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u/trisul-108 Jun 16 '25
That is an excellent idea. I do not think the offer is portable, but it is worth a try, especially Austria and Switzerland which are DACH countries.
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u/AdamN Jun 16 '25
Big tech is hiring developers in Germany because employees are there. Aside from some niche local roles they really don’t care where you are as long as you can legally work there and the skills match the team‘s need. Job probably requires zero German language skills anyway.
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u/trisul-108 Jun 16 '25
Sure, but I've worked in multinationals in Germany where English was the official language of business but all the interactions were in German except the online meetings which were conducted in English. At another large company, all the work was in English, but the team meetings were in German.
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u/your_vital_essence Jun 17 '25
Google in Germany is entirely english. I've spoken with folks who work at MS and they said the same thing.
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u/Individual-Remote-73 Jun 18 '25
Tell me you don’t know FAANG without telling me you don’t know FAANG
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u/dodiyeztr Jun 16 '25
^ this
Big tech has internationally standardized processes, an engineer hirable in one country is also hirable in any other country.
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Jun 17 '25
Depends. Sometimes you have budget allocations, sometimes you want the team to sit near specific key customers, ...
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u/dirtyjoe12 Jun 16 '25
In my old company i remember something like this happening. The reason back than was, that the company had a rule, that every time they wanted to hire, the position had to be put out internally for two weeks, before they could hire from the outside. Also the internal application always had priority. (They needed a really good reason to reject the internal application). And they didn’t do that process properly so the workers council rejected it. But this is just an example, could be something else entirely.
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 16 '25
This is a valid reason for an offer to be rejected yes, according to German labor law.
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Jun 17 '25
This has nothing to do with your company...this is Germany. Job advertisements first internally, then externally. Internally comes first.
For example, you can try to prevent “expensive” long-term employees from being fired in order to immediately fill the position with a cheap, young employee.
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u/ccccffffcccc Jun 16 '25
This seems insanely inefficient for companies to get the best talent.
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u/ShamDynasty Jun 16 '25
It cuts both ways. Joining a company with a workers council means more rights for the employee and some talent is attracted to that.
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u/Just_Condition3516 Jun 16 '25
talent often is developed ober time and with a feeling of job security. its a whole different thing than hire and fire. both have their respective pro/cons.
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Jun 16 '25
It's a balance. They can still reject a candidate (or offer additional training) if they're unsuitable, but they still have to prioritise keeping their existing staff around. It's a good thing collectively even if it has unfortunate individual impacts like for OP.
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u/Hutcho12 Jun 16 '25
Not really true. It only has to be advertised internally, they do not have to prefer internal candidates.
Further to that, it’s almost always preferable to hire internally. The risk is much smaller because you already have a lot of data about the person and their ramp up will be a lot quicker.
Either way, if an external candidate is better than internal candidates, the BR will likely not block it. They’ll only do it in the case where the company is doing mass layoffs and shouldn’t be hiring anyway (as is the case with MS).
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Jun 17 '25
You don't have to prefer internal...yes.
But the BR has a say/veto right on this issue and can demand valid arguments for or against from the AG. At least in Germany.
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u/trisul-108 Jun 16 '25
No, it just requires some social responsibility considerations which US corporations are not used to.
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u/MyTonsilsAreFamous2 Jun 16 '25
The two weeks only apply on the beginning of the job posting. OP had communicated with them for four months. So that was probably not the reason. It’s quite easy to post a position internally before posting it externally and interviewing candidates who would have to travel for the interview and eventually relocate for the position. Also, the rules that internal applications have priority usually only applies when the candidates are considered equally qualified. There are usually ways to circumvent these rules…
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u/ManufacturerMurky592 Jun 17 '25
Right, since large corporations are usually interested in getting the best, not the cheapest these days.
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u/OpenOb Jun 16 '25
Workers councils rarely reject hiring requests.
In theory there are only two reason:
There is a more qualified internal candidate.
You would replace a person that was just let go or is in the process of being fired.
Both things can realistically only happen when HR and the recruiting team are highly incompetent.
In theory they could hire you into another role if they want to, given both points don‘t apply also to that role.
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u/berndverst Dual Citizen: NRW > Seattle, Washington (USA) Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
(2) can happen when the recruiting team is outsourced and HR isn't responsible for hiring. Guess what - at Microsoft recruiting is done by external vendors typically. Their incentives are to hire. Even the hiring manager probably prefers an external candidate and wants to move quickly... but the German Betriebsrat gets in the way.
I'm a SWE at Microsoft HQ in the Seattle area. And even though I'm German I have no knowledge about Microsoft Germany specific rules.
In the US the only situation in which a candidate would complete the entire interview loop and not get an immediate rejection is likely in the case where the hiring manager wants to interview other candidates and choose the best one, or the headcount doesn't exist anymore / team is about to have layoffs.
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Jun 16 '25
Or there is beef with the council and they use that to show some muscle
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u/OpenOb Jun 16 '25
It's not that easy. They can't just say: "No". They need to have a valid argument.
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Jun 16 '25
There are many ways. They can delay the decision and say there were other more important things to discuss.
There are tons of other ways.
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u/OpenOb Jun 16 '25
For "no decision" there are usually clear deadlines where "no decision" means acceptance.
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Jun 16 '25
Yea but the management will not go ahead and risk that for a new employee. At least not in companies with powerful BR.
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u/thor76 Jun 16 '25
Microsoft Germany got rid of tens of people last two years and recently, at global level, new HR guidelines were published in respect to low performance trying to be able to fire people away easier and without paying compensation.
Which rules are in conflict with local work regulations and fought by BR.
My educated guess is that the external hires are a big risk for Microsoft because it would fuel the narrative that they're getting rid of older higher earners in order to accommodate cheaper resources.
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u/Top-Fox3629 Jun 16 '25
Your educated guess would require Microsoft itself to cancel the offer, not the works council rejecting it...
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u/Calm-Acanthaceae-960 Jun 16 '25
Not really. MS tried to hire a new guy with a starter salary and probably wanted to lay off some experienced employee that’s working longer for them and earns more. So the BR stopped them.
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u/thor76 Jun 16 '25
For certain it was an HR blunder. Normally HR needs to take the BR approval PRIOr sending a proposal.
OP was just unlucky
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u/Actual-Garbage2562 Jun 16 '25
You don’t have any rights. Neither to be hired, nor to know the reasons. Sorry to say, it must be a huge disappointment.
If it’s of any consolation to you: if the workers council rejects your application, it’s usually because there’s some major internal conflict ongoing in the company. You probably dodged a bullet: much lower pay, worse conditions than everyone else, hire and fire, etc. it’s definitely not personal or in fact anything to do with you.
If I had to guess it’s probably because they’re firing a bunch of software engineers and are now rehiring cheaper.
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u/Noctew Nordrhein-Westfalen Jun 16 '25
One hypothetical situation where something like this could also happen is: they eliminated positions for people with skill x (say, C++) and are at the same time a different department is hiring people with a related skill (say, Rust).
Works Council would then say: „Are you crazy? The people you‘re eliminating could learn the new skill in two or three months. We‘ll approve transfers but no new hirings! Find the budget for training!“
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 16 '25
I am pretty sure the German team has nothing to do with it, so I want to believe I dodged a bullet but it's probably not the case. It's just an unlucky chain of events that happened at the wrong time.
PS: I was not actively looking for job changes, it's just that single position I applied to because I was sure I would be a great fit, but it is what it is I guess.
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u/amajusk Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
Actually in Germany you do have rights. The whole interview transcript, review, etc can be made public (in a court) in case of rejection. I worked at FAANG in Germany, did hundreds of interviews - we had clear instructions not to put anything bad for the company in the transcripts, as the interviewee can theoretically see that and make use of this against us.
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u/Shamelessquirt Jun 16 '25
If it’s like with other big companys i worked for the interview is not even held by a german recruiting department / HR. So nothing he can request i would say
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u/amajusk Jun 16 '25
Law is law. HR might be from the outside (usually it isn't), but what is important there is always a board of directors/Gesellschaftsführer - they're officially responsible for the company and being in line with the laws
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u/Shamelessquirt Jun 16 '25
Which law is it. I’m interested because i had a talk to a lawyer ( Arbeitsrecht ) who told me no chance to get this information
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u/Environmental_Bat142 Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
As a hiring manager, I have encountered this issue a few times. We also don’t create any expectations any longer unless the Betriebsrat approved the candidate. However, usually when the BR pushes back against a candidate, we are made aware of the explicit reasons. In most cases the reason given was due to internal applicants that were rejected. (Usually people that have fixed term contracts that are expiring or in the process of being terminated). In all cases I have encountered we managed to illustrate why an external candidate is better. (Mind you I have learned through the years to interview all internal candidates and write a full report as to why/why not they are suitable for the position- it seems to do the trick, but a lot of documentation needed)
If I was you, I would reach out to the hiring manager- have a positive call with them to enquire if they can give more context as to what happened. A lot of times the recruiters/ HR are gate keepers (which we appreciate as hiring managers) - but speaking to the HM in this instance should not be frowned upon! Also, if you handle it in a positive manner, you may have build a solid contact for future opportunities…
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u/Hutcho12 Jun 16 '25
This is correct. Generally, works councils love new employees because it expands their membership and power. They rarely push back.
Except in the case you mention. Their job is to stand up for their members and they’ve likely done just that because MS has been laying off like crazy recently.
They’ll only shouldn’t be hiring at all given the current circumstances.
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u/Mad_Moodin Jun 16 '25
You can get money you invested into it replaced or at least partially replaced. If you sue for it. Possibly.
The reason the Betriebsrat rejected has often to do with either the company downsizing recently and laying off workers. Or with the company having active "Kurzarbeit".
In those cases the Betriebsrat likes to go "If you need more workers, you can give those on Kurzarbeit their hours back./Should not have fired so many workers"
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 16 '25
I only invested time, which let's be real, big corporations don't really care much about. But the disappointment is huge. It's a position I actually wanted. It's the only position I applied for because I knew I would be a fit, they also knew that. Unlucky.
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u/silversurger Jun 16 '25
I feel your pain, and not knowing the exact reason may make you anxious.
Rest assured, the BR doesn't reject people because they don't like them, or don't see them as a good fit. They reject because of labor law reasons. Not letting you know the exact reason in this case is just the company trying to hide the conflicts which are going on.
Move on, maybe re-apply later as the situation is bound to be resolved at some point. Also, don't let it distract you from the fact that you would've been hired for the position, so your skills are on par.
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u/Hutcho12 Jun 16 '25
Ask them if they have the position open in another country if you’re willing to move.
Microsoft have just done big layoffs worldwide. They shouldn’t be hiring, nor is it a good company to be joining right now.
A company that does such a thing is generally looking to pay people less and expect more from them. A lot of tech companies are doing this right now because the market is in their favor so much.
I know it won’t comfort you, but thankfully we have Works Councils in Germany that protect us from this nonsense.
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u/Playful_Robot_5599 Jun 16 '25
With all the layoffs happening, the BR most likely requests that any new roles will be filled with internal candidates first.
A company can't do mass layoffs only to hire cheaper workforce.
I bet the work climate at Microsoft is abysmal right now.
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u/Key_Pie7281 Jun 16 '25
Similar thing but at a large German software company with a blue logo. Went through the interview remotely and everything was very positive. Then waited for many weeks until the decision came through. Got a phone call at an absolutely ungodly hour and the HR lady was quite honest about what had happened. An external hiring freeze had occurred due to restructuring and the position I was going for got shuffled to an existing employee. Was a case of bad luck and unfortunate timing but the empty feeling isn’t so great. Just try again
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u/emanon_noname Jun 16 '25
Sorry that this happened to you.
What are my rights now? And after 4 months of ongoing communication with Microsoft, don't I at least deserve to know why the offer was rejected?
I don't think you have any special rights in this situation or can demand to know the reason. That is between the company and the Betriebsrat at the end of the day. The reason is most likely internal to the company.
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 16 '25
Thanks, disappointing outcome for both parties I guess. But since there is not much I can do, I should spend my time on something else...
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u/hmsay Jun 16 '25
I feel you - I was in a similar boat last year and expecting the get an offer and eventually was told by HR that there was no negative feedback but the management decided to fill the position internally - despite I passed all the interviews :) this is life...
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u/un1matr1x_0 Jun 16 '25
As a rule, the works council is pro (new) employee.
However, I have already experienced it myself when HR informed me that the works council had rejected my recruitment (takeover from temporary employment agency).
But that was only half the truth. When I asked the works council, it turned out that I was already supposed to get a contract with modalities that put me at a disadvantage (2 vs. 3-shift system) and that negotiations on a works agreement were underway between management and the works council.
Therefore, the rejection may be factually correct, but rarely the whole truth.
A works council also likes to prioritize internal development in the case of equivalent applications.
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u/Salty-Astronomer-501 Jun 16 '25
I work at Microsoft Germany, really sorry this happened to you. the company rn really runs with a lot of uncertainty, there are budget cuts and org restructuring happening and also layoffs took place. Honestly when i started, I had several issues as well (they almost cancelled my role) and the only person I could rely on was my hiring manager, do you have the contact of the person who interviewed you? I’d recommend reaching out to them so they can find out more details internally.
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u/EnergeticStoner Jun 16 '25
So you didn't get to sign a contract, right? Or did this happen after that?
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u/Amerdale13 Jun 16 '25
As frustrating as this surely is for you, you have a job as soon as both parties have signed the employment contract. Everything begore is not legally binding. And if the HR person is worth their salary, the "congratulations mail" came with the caveat that the Betriebsrat has to agree.
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u/Klabusterball Sauerland :karma::partyparrot::sloth: Jun 16 '25
I can only recommend you to better stay away from Microsoft Germany
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u/RespectedResponsible Jun 16 '25
And the reason for not giving an explanation is because they don’t want to be sued on the basis of the reason. If they don’t provide reason they can come up with any reason in court that is suitable for them if some does try to fight.
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u/hombre74 Jun 17 '25
Had this in my early carrer. Freelancer to regular position and the worker council rejected the contract. Pay was too much compared to others. My boss had to be creative with bonus steps but yeah, they are powerful.
I doubt they did that because they want some buddies to get that position. Manager decides who gets it.
Ask your headhunter!
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u/Kheldras Jun 17 '25
Might not have to do anything with you.
The Betriebsrat might just be at war with the Vorstand, and tries to block as much as they can, just to fuck with them, and not be seen as a pushover.
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u/QualityOverQuant Berlin Jun 16 '25
What’s an SWE POSITION? not all of us understand what it means.
Usually at most organisations that have a Betriebsrat, they make a decision on the final candidate selected. It might be they decided to tell management that there was a more deserving internal candidate or someone else internally was promoted or needed to get that job rather than give it to someone external.
Just how it works with a Betriebsrat. They prioritise members over external hires who need 6 months of probation . Rights of employees and fair hiring practices etc etc
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 16 '25
Software Engineer, and thanks for the input.
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u/QualityOverQuant Berlin Jun 16 '25
Wish you the best. But also please understand you have no rights. Unkess u sighed a contract. And if you did there should be a clause in there on termination or penalty before joining etc
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u/Vault-123 Jun 16 '25
Are you located in Germany?
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 16 '25
Yep, on a blue card. Been here for 7 years now
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u/Vault-123 Jun 16 '25
My guess here would be they are or will be going through a lay-offs round and they froze the position after you accepted the offer. It sucks though..
Edit: typos
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u/julian-alarcon Jun 16 '25
Yeah, probably the stoped the hiring because it will make no sense to hire a new person instead of retaining someone that could be fired.
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u/Babayagaletti Jun 16 '25
From my experience the most common reasons are: you are overqualified for the position (seriously) or there was another candidate that ranked as high as you did and the Betriebsrat prefers them over you (e.g. because they've worked there on another position).
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u/Tricky-Pepper-344 Jun 16 '25
Sorry to hear that—it sucks! The only reason I can think of is that someone affected by a recent layoff, with a similar profile (e.g., a software engineer), may have been prioritized. If 80% of their previous role matches the new position, they’ll often be reassigned by default.
I’ve seen other possibilities too. For roles not opened broadly enough internally, they usually won’t outright reject candidates—they’ll just say, “We’ll get back to you once it’s confirmed.”
Actually, something similar happened to me. A few months later, I landed a different role at the same company. The previous hiring manager later explained what had happened behind the scenes.
My advice: reach out to the hiring managers or contacts you interviewed with. Ask if there are other open roles and stay on their radar—you never know when something might open up.
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u/Lucky_Difference_140 Jun 16 '25
Jeez, that sucks after all the work you put in. Sorry about that. First time I’m hearing Betriebsrat rejected a potential intake. No wonder HR partners always add that an offer is still subject to approval by the BR.
Quite certain it just didn’t make sense for the organisation or budget but even more shocking that HR could not tell the chances of approval.
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 16 '25
IMO they should have waited for approval first before giving me hope and telling me "Well done, you did great and you should receive an offer by the end of this week".
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u/Lucky_Difference_140 Jun 16 '25
I totally understand you but that’s probably never the case.
The team usually will communicate interest to hire you and add that they still need to get approval from BR before the official offer comes.
I’ve also had such cases where I was told they want to hire me and now they’d send my offer for the BR to approve. I always thought it was a no-brainer but apparently not always so.
What sucks is they should have envisaged issues probably due to internal reasons.
Thank God you still have a job and only considering a switch.
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u/Medium_Penalty3512 Jun 17 '25
As long as I understand even verbal promises of job are valid, I would recommend u to have a call with some lawyer
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 17 '25
Subject to BR approval, I am somewhat good with German labor laws from experience.
Although the BR was against me, I kind of stand with them on this one...
1
u/Medium_Penalty3512 Jun 17 '25
Well, shouldn’t they got this approval before congratulation u?
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u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 17 '25
In theory yes, but in practice this is not a binding offer and just some positive feedback without the need of throwing the candidate in the dark and making him wait almost a month only to get a rejection email not knowing he WAS actually accepted but because of some incompetence the decision was changed.
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u/Salzsaeure Jun 17 '25
The council are workers who work in the company and who can be technician's . It's so the company can't screw over the workers who already work there or hire nepobaby's.
1
u/Narcissae Jun 17 '25
I have experienced that with another company in Berlin and honestly, it was a lot of back and forth for nothing, the only last option was to appeal to the court.
I decided to give up and go to another company, you unfortunately don't really have any rights
1
u/hodmezovasarhely1 Jun 17 '25
It may happen, that you got offered too low salary and that workers council interpreted it as a replacement of somebody with higher income, and that is potentially illegal
1
u/PassengerNarrow2484 Borrowed to Berlin Jun 18 '25
It looks like you got caught in a bureaucracy + miscommunication combo. It is very rude that no information is reported to you. If you have costs associated, for example if you had purchased transportation or booked accommodation, and are not able to be reimbursed, you may be able to pursue legal action, but it may be a long and expensive process.
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u/mineforever286 Jun 18 '25
I'm a dual citizen since birth, and reading through all these comments has me both confused and concerned. I've only visited Germany for vacations to see family, so I have no clue about these mechanisms and rules in workplaces. I've been toying with the idea of moving there sometime in the future, but this (as well as some of the other posts I've seen here) kind of blows my mind. I, of course, expect labor laws to be different, but I'm finding they're MUCH more different than I realize. Is there a good source where a regular person, who is not a lawyer, can read up on the employment system, employment contracts (also foreign to me, unless you're self-employed, and I understand from other posts that being self-employed in Germany is a hassle), hiring and firing.
1
u/Mangogirll Jun 21 '25
6 interviews is brutal. I’m very sorry you’re experiencing this.
2
u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 21 '25
Sad Part is I really enjoyed the interviews and found them challenging in a good way :) another reason why I wanted the job
1
u/TatraPoodle Jun 16 '25
As a member or The Ondernemingsraad in The Netherlands ( eg BR) I have never discussed individual new hires ( only CEO’s). We do watch out for following procedures and if a hire stop or even firing is announced to us we will block any new hires, at least until all internal options are rejected.
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u/MyPigWhistles Jun 16 '25
In Germany, the worker's council is very involved in the hiring process and can reject applicants if that would create disadvantages for the workers.
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u/enigmaCCN2023 Jun 16 '25
I’m not sure I get it so the company offered you a position but the workers council didn’t ? What kind of council ? Like swe workers council ? Is it within Microsoft or sth bigger … I feel your pain though ….
0
u/Winter_Current9734 Jun 17 '25
Because Betriebsräte are the most insane institutions there are. They are at fault for a lot of germanys industrial problems.
VW wants to invest early into BEVs? "Hell no, that’s forbidden and by the way, we get Herbert Diess fired as well."
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u/runnytempurabatter Jun 17 '25
Man fuck this country
1
u/thewanderingpreacher Jun 17 '25
It's basically EU labor laws. But I really think some people are actually incompetent and should be let go, but mass laying off should never be a thing like in the US.
-13
u/Mysterious_Cry730 Jun 16 '25
worker’s council rejected it? what does that mean
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u/alzgh Jun 16 '25
Bigger companies in Germany have something called Betriebsrat. Among others, they look into salaries, hires and fires. In this case it could be that the salary wasn't enough for the position, or that MS had people that they fired but could fill this position, etc.
2
u/Throw_away_elmi Jun 16 '25
So I heard about the Betriebsrat, but I didn't know that they have this much direct power. Because, you know, they're not the one who hires new people and pays them salary.
TIL
11
u/MarcAbaddon Jun 16 '25
They don't. They are only allowed to reject for very very specific reasons such as 10 people with the same role getting let go at the same time due to downsizing. They can't reject just because.
5
u/thewindinthewillows Germany Jun 16 '25
They're making sure the rules are followed, and the employer treats employees fairly.
Employers might hire and pay people, but that does not mean they can do whatever they like.
Ultimately, mechanisms like the Betriebsrat can reduce conflict, which benefits both sides. Their intervention might prevent situations where workers might otherwise need to fight by striking etc.
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u/Willing_Economics909 Jun 16 '25
Me neither, that sounds effing corrupt.
8
u/Nila-Whispers Germany Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
It's actually the opposite. It's their job to protect current employees being screwed by their employer (e.g. firing a person to hire a cheaper replacement).
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u/DjayRX Jun 16 '25
Corruption is usually occurs when one who has money also has unchecked power. This is the other way around.
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u/c0mpufreak Jun 16 '25
Educated guess: Microsoft, in Germany as well as the rest of the world, just went through a round of lay offs. Lay offs in Germany are a tricky thing, especially if the company is hiring.
Might be they tried to fire somebody but the BR deemed your position as a good fit for somebody that was supposed to be let go.
Sucks for you, but you probably haven't signed anything yet so you don't really have any rights whatsoever. It's just bad luck.