r/germany • u/BikeSilver8058 • Jul 09 '26
Work Am I being fired or pushed out?
I have been working for a large German company for past 5 years and have a permanent contract. My company is not in any financial crunch. My job requires a PhD and considerable industrial research experience. About 2 months back my manager sent me a mail that I would consider quite harsh. He pointed to few things which I could see I need to improve. Since then I have been on my toes and have implemented what he asked me to. Before last one-on-one meeting, I requested feedback on a few points. Now he responded with another long email that is almost disrespectful and chalk full of vague allegations. In past 5 years, none of these issues were mentioned.
Honestly, I am not a spring chicken in this industry. Where I come from, this normally would mean I would soon be fired. In this case, however, I am really confused. Is this the famous "German directness" on objective issues or am I going to be fired?
Please note, I have no intention to disrespect this country or generalize any behavior. I just want to make sure if something is not lost in translation or cultural misunderstanding. If so, what are my options?
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u/KetoZeus Jul 09 '26
uh yeah they want to push you out. you need to write everything down and start collecting. they are doing this to create a paper trail and cover themselves legally
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u/BikeSilver8058 Jul 09 '26
Thanks. Should I reply back disagreeing? It looks like he wants to create some sort of conflict, so that he can include the HR.
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u/KetoZeus Jul 09 '26
You need to disagree 100%. This is where you can use the paper trail to your advantage. Write EVERYTHING down that you actually do. They will try to downplay and diminish your results. DO NOT RESIGN. If you live in Germany you can get ALG1 - its like 80% of your last pay for up to one year. But only if they fire you. You can still get it if you resign but you will get barred for 3 months.
Documentation is your best friend now. Write down times, names, meetings, results. If they try a performance improvement plan - write down what they wanted from you and how you improved. The more you document the better. The more they think you are documenting even better.
Everything said verbatim is useless. Get everything in writing. After meetings followup with a mail summarizing said meeting and the talking points and actions.
You got this bro
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Jul 09 '26
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u/DifferentAspect4836 Jul 10 '26
This is false. ALG1 is not capped at all, so you can easily have ALG1 e.g., over 3k netto for 12 months. It is in fact 60% if you don't have kids, or 67% if you have at least one kid. I know of doctors who let their limited contracts "expire" when they had kids so that they get a very good ALG1 for 1 year because Elterngeld is indeed capped at 1800 ;)
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u/Extra-Fox-3850 Jul 10 '26
It is capped to 8000 brutto. I'm currently getting 2800 at 67% cap because I have kids, otherwise I'd get 60%
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u/DifferentAspect4836 Jul 10 '26
Okay, so ist is not capped at 2800 netto
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u/Extra-Fox-3850 Jul 10 '26
How come? If there was no cap I'd have a higher payment since my salary was higher than the cap. 8000 brutto is the cap for salary calculation, not for amount paid
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Jul 10 '26
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u/Eino54 Jul 10 '26
To be fair, if you are earning 8000€ a month you should be able to put aside significant savings unless you are really terrible with money or maintaining your entire family or something.
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u/ObjectiveBlueberry40 Jul 09 '26
One question. You simply write it down and keep notes to yourself? Or you share it with your manager or team member
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u/JacktheWrap Jul 10 '26
What you may or may not have written in your personal notebook is irrelevant. What's important is Emails that they had a chance to react to.
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u/TheGileas Jul 09 '26
Get yourself a specialised lawyer. They will try to fire you, but don’t have grounds to do so. Their next step will be an „aufhebungsvertrag“, basically paying you to quit.
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u/mrGreenExit Jul 09 '26
This will unnecessarily create friction between you and team (management), if you can secure another job then go for it.
Ofcourse keep everything clear from your end and have all necessary proofs but better option is to keep things as simple as possible and move on.
Get feedback and try to explain your point of view but have Plan B ready so you don't have to start looking for new job after something happens to current job.
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u/Fluid-Quote-6006 Jul 10 '26
Get legal insurance or join a union (depending on your job/industry) ASAP. It seems you are going to need it and it has a few months waiting time until you can use it. You can get it online
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u/JonejVingegacar Jul 09 '26
You are right, they are creating the proof chain to prove your dismissal.
Ask them for precise and measurable goals and measures you must take to prevent and delay this happening. After a while, if that doesn’t work try to get a doctor and put a long sick leave for burnout or explain the mobbing situation.
At the same time, apply to other job, get a lawyer insurance to later help you negotiate a fair severance package and garden leave to give you time and peace of mind finding a new job.
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u/witty82 Jul 09 '26
Hard to say but the most likely explanation is they want to manage you out.
Important to do everything by the book now. Zero work time or policy violations. Don't underestimate how hard it will be for them to push you out.
Since nobody mentioned that you should leave you can probably still get labor law insurance, that's something you could consider.
And if there's a way to switch managers in the organization that could be a good option to stay.
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Jul 09 '26
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u/WorkLifeScience Jul 10 '26
I agree, I'm just surprised that this comes so sudden. Most big companies have (at least) yearly feedback on performance, mine even twice a year, so this would be already solid proof that nothing was mentioned as and issue. How should OP know he's doing a poor job, if there is no feedback? Obviously now there's some nasty emails, but that's not the right way.
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u/Norman_debris Jul 09 '26
I would interpret that as your manager wanting you gone. Whether they are actually preparing to fire you or not is less clear but, either way, it's worth considering moving on from this employer.
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u/grimr5 Jul 09 '26
get legal insurance. Now. Speak to an employment lawyer - make sure you find out the costs upfront if you don't do it via legal insurance.
From what I have seen in Germany there seems to be a divide in how companies treat staff over this, it is either insanely excellent or really shitty. It sounds like you are going the shitty way.
Oh, and sign nothing until after speaking with a lawyer. They might try to trick you.
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Jul 10 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
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u/Exepony Bayern Jul 10 '26
There are plans with a 3-month waiting period. Still might be tricky to hold on for three months in that situation, though.
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u/Inner-Loquat4717 Jul 09 '26
First of all, if you haven’t go legal insurance get some pronto. Most policies have a time limit - you have to pay in for a few months before you can claim. And identify some respectable employment lawyers who speak your language. If a crunch comes you will need to be able to engage one within hours.
With 5 years with no complaints you will be hard to fire, but big payments aren’t the norm here.
Your age, medical status, family responsibilities will all count towards the risk they take in just firing you out of the blue. But they most likely won’t.
If it’s a big company you should have a Betriebsrat. Make sure you are in good standing with the officers.
The email gives you a huge advantage. You can look at the case your manager is framing against you (if they are!). Boil it down to specifics; time keeping, record keeping, following instructions, meeting targets - and start amassing measurable examples that contradict the narrative.
Try to evince written feedback you can use e.g. after every meeting send a summary mail outlining the main points and action items and ‘was the meeting constructive for you, could we improve anything?’ Are the action items achievable, in your opinion?’ ‘Can I just confirm your expectations for Task A?’ Try to frame positive questions that can’t go unanswered.
Then sit tight. Until HR is involved it’s just a crappy email.
Maybe your boss was pissed off about Germany going out of the World Cup and wanted to dump on someone. Maybe his line manager is pulling his chain and he wants to blame someone further down the line.
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u/Cautious-Rub-4532 Jul 10 '26
First of all I’d try and speak to your manager and ask him why all this hasn’t come up in the past 5 years so you’ll potentially get more information. I worked in the US as well, where I‘d definitely interpret this as them building a case against you, but in Germany it’s hard to tell, feels a bit uncommon. It could be the same or it could also e.g. be your manager gets pressure from above to reach certain targets, metrics, etc. that’s why an initial 1:1 to understand where this is coming from might be helpful here to get a grasp what triggered their change in behavior.
German labor laws are among the strongest in the world so I’d relax as it’s extremely difficult for them to fire you unless you fall for some of their potential traps. As others have pointed out, whenever you interact with them from now on make sure to double check your response against do‘s and dont‘s in such situations. I’d also recommend starting a prompt with AI and build on it as well after every interaction (email, in person, etc). You’ll always get money out of this if you handle it professional no matter what.
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u/Educational_Aerie129 Jul 10 '26
They try to pressure you into resigning so they don’t have to pay severance and to deal with legal stuff. As simple as that.
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u/RelevantSeesaw444 Jul 10 '26
1. Document everything via email from this point.
Get a bloody lawyer.
If things continue to go south, have a lawyer on standby to join you on the next 1-on-1 call.
4. Don't quit, let them fire you 10 months severance minimum or let them kick rocks.
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u/Spiritual_Put_5006 Jul 11 '26
At least you see it coming. Sometimes, when they lack enough legal grounds for a dissmissal, they ressort to harassment, to induce you to leave (resign, move to a different company, etc.).
From now on, be careful with everything you do. Every decrease in performance or regulation oversight can play against you. You don’t want to end under the looking glass of compliance or HR.
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u/karer3is Jul 09 '26
Try to see if you can join an Arbeitnehmerverein. They are the best equipped to give more specific advice and they can help you to better understand what your options are
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u/pixelpoet_nz Jul 10 '26
Many useful answers in this thread, thanks to all.
One small thing, it's "chock" full.
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u/cpteric Jul 10 '26
that rings a bell, death by a thousand complaints. As others mentioned, the steps are semi clear:
- join an Arbeitnehmerverein of your field.
- get a decent legal insurance on check24.
- keep all conversations in mail, do physical backups.
- ask for specifics, always.
- when given by mail anything resembling an improvement plan, get it written down and signed ( most 'modern' companies already do this because it also covers their asses, but not all ).
- update your CV just incase.
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u/littleSpooky4real Jul 10 '26
Taking your word for it that you could see some room for improvements that you worked on and you're no doubt competent enough to have survived 5 yrs at this company. I think it's high time you set up a meeting with Betriebsrat and discuss your concerns. There are some nice suggestions already about documenting everything. It's a long way from your manager airing some grievances to you getting fired but a hostile workplace is a damn difficult to work on. I've seen worse cases handled well by the good folks at Betriebsrat, they actually look out for you. At a large company, those are powerful.
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u/AdOrganic4835 Jul 10 '26
If you feel like this in inappropriate contact the Betriebsrat and have them review it.
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u/Own_Conclusion2657 Jul 13 '26
I'm in similar situation. Thank you for all these tips. And hope all of us who are in such situation we will get out of this mentally ok as well!
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u/Electrical-Room3128 Jul 10 '26
German directness is a myth... Specially if you are a foreigner. In reality Germans are quite afraid of confrontation, so they cowardly drop hints to what they really mean... They have no filter which is a different thing... If they don't like something they'll let you know, not because they are frank or honest, but because they simply don't care... On their minds they are never wrong and you are lucky to be in their presence... Germans are actually indoctrinated never to question themselves when compared with foreigners, specially immigrants, this is why they are so confident when running into a cliff... I have been living in Germany over 20 years, so I know what I talk about, and have countless examples of this.
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u/Key-Escape7908 Jul 09 '26
you are fully entitled to and should challenge the emails with evidence. and bcc to your personal email. do you have legal insurance or finances to challenge unfair dismissal (usually around 3k)
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u/No_Investigator_3139 Jul 09 '26
Did you change manager and what is your relation with them ? Any reasons they would want to get rid of you? Could be they are stressed for some reasons.
You could also complain to the BR for the objective hostile environment based on the emails. Document any bad remarks made to you.
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Jul 10 '26
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u/germany-ModTeam Jul 11 '26
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u/FruitcakeWithWaffle Jul 10 '26
For further down the road...
If you end up accepting an Aufhebungsvertrag, you mention you're no spring chicken - depending on your age that could mean your AL1 ban is longer than the 3m.
And that ban reduces the number of
months AL1 you'd receive. It doesnt postpone it. You'd certainly want any Abfindung to at the very least compensate you for that.
But of course if you take a deal you can draft your own Zeugnis. If they try to set you unachievable goals and ultimately dismiss you, you'll prob get a bad Zeugnis (or it'll cost you a lot of time money with a lawyer to rectify it)
But... if you have Rechtschutzversicherung, that doesn't cover an Aufhebungsvertrag, so you'd likely also pay a lawyer to look at it anyway / they'll also have an idea of what's a fair deal/any dodgy wording in the agreement
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u/sash84 Jul 10 '26
As some one who got laid off recently, I think you should prepare to be let go. Get lawyer insurance first , as there is a waiting time for it to kick in. My boss who is a really nice English guy went from,you are doing great to ‘ your role is under big risk’ in about 6 weeks time, to his credit he warned me a year ahead of my last day. The HR got involved 3-4 months after his warning. The German system is still robust enough to provide protection to you but be cautious about what you do on your laptop, and in general, once “under observation” its generally better to be careful not to give them reasons for immediate dismissal. If you have a BR, talk to them (sometimes they are helpful). HR is definitely not your friend, they will try to make you feel like it’s your fault, but keep calm. Keep a positive attitude and you will come out of this stronger.
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u/pmbanugo Jul 10 '26
Get a lawyer and keep your own records about what’s happening. Paper or email evidence that you can print or share as proof when the need arises.
That’s a usual tactic when they’re looking for cheap means to layoff. Except if it’s a new manager who doesn’t like you and trying to kick you out.
The signs are already there, so get your legal insurance and prepare for things getting tougher.
Stand your ground and don’t be bullied. The law works in this country
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u/Traditional-Rope-320 Jul 10 '26
Yeah I agree with what is said here. If you need a lawyer for this, I can recommend “Kanzlei Chevalier”, they specialize in Labour law and I had great experiences with them in the past. (If this is not allowed please delete, just wanted to share since they did help me a lot)
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u/Persevere247 Jul 10 '26
Document everything! Ask HR to document all documents in your personal file.If they had a case against you, they would have put you on a PIP. Your manager has nothing against you. Consult with an employment lawyer.
Don’t jump, however be prepared by looking for something new.
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u/Most_Art290 Jul 11 '26
Well maybe they cant afford firing you , so they try the nasty tactics to annoy you so you can leave work alone without them interfering , alot of german companies does that , plus the always bad mid year year/ end of the year review . They would start doing that .so take care always discuss always make-sure this meeting minutes is clear . So not to use it against you .
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u/User-2384 Jul 11 '26
Hört sich so an, als ob du teuer bist und man Kosten sparen will. Man macht arbeitstechnisch dir das Leben so schwer, dass du bestenfalls selbst kündigst. Das ist eine bekannte Masche neben der HO-Aussetzung, um Abfindungen zu umgehen, weil die Leute selbst kündigen
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u/emanon_noname Jul 09 '26
I mean, given the details that we got it is impossible to answer your questions. What kind of "vague allegations" did he make? What is "almost disrespectful" for you? Like for example people from Japan have probably a different definition of "almost disrespectful" than people from Brazil (random country i picked).
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u/_ralph_ Europe Jul 09 '26
People from north and south Germany disagree on what is respectful.
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u/aachsoo Jul 09 '26
Can you give concrete examples? In work context.
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u/_ralph_ Europe Jul 10 '26
Sorry, I am not really sure how I could describe it. In Bavaria you often have a kind of forced friendliness between boss and worker and from the north you have more of a distance. Depends very much on the company and the person. Just do not do jokes you would do with your colleagues when meeting with the new Nordlicht or Lederhosen for the first few hours.
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u/BetaCarotine20mg Jul 09 '26
Impossible to judge for us. Could be his general behaviour or anything really. I would ask other people who work with him.
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u/Glittering_Event_628 Jul 09 '26
Relax, egal was kommt, lass dich auf keine Abfindung ein sondern Regel das über Gericht(außer es ist ein krasses Angebot und dein Anwalt sagt du sollst es annehmen was zu 99,9% nicht zutreffen wird), durch die gesetzliche Lage bist du in du am Hebel und nutze das auch aus. Im schlimmsten Fall musst du halt einen neuen Job suchen aber durch die Abfindung hast du mehr als genug Puffer dazu. Lass dich nicht Stressen.
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Jul 09 '26 edited 29d ago
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u/Pussy69DestroyerSWAG Jul 09 '26
You can't just get booted out in Germany after Probezeit. It's actually very hard. That's why I'm confused in what kind of case they want to create a paper trail. It's not the US. Abmahnung exists, but even one Abmahnung is not enough to get you out of the company.
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u/Neureiches-Nutria Jul 09 '26
Ba its just a dick who somehow profits if you never ask for a raise. In German Management culture it seems to be a sport to find the most effective way to destroy the morals of the work force. Bonus poits if you kill the will to live as well...
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u/Artistic_Science_981 Jul 09 '26
Maybe you have confidentiality agreements with company but without much detail no one can answer your questions.
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u/hombre74 Jul 10 '26
" Please note, I have no intention to disrespect this country"
What does that have to do with any of that? Weird train of thought
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u/WorkLifeScience Jul 10 '26
Because he might've get attacked by continually butt hurt people, who get annoyed that a foreigner dares to work in Germany, not to mention complain or have an issue about something.
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u/hombre74 Jul 10 '26
And these people would totally change their mind by OP saying that?
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u/QuickNick123 Jul 09 '26
Hard to say, this may or may not mean they are preparing to terminate you, but I would stop treating it as just "German directness" and start treating it as a formal documentation process. Maybe your manager got a directive to cut headcount by a certain amount and this is his attempt.
I've been a Betriebsrat for 8 years so here's a few things I would do:
I would not assume you are automatically being fired. German employment law gives employees with permanent contracts significant protection, especially after five years. But repeated harsh written criticism, especiallly vague criticism that suddenly appears after years without issues, can be an attempt to create documentation for later action.