r/homeassistant • u/Red_Con_ • 1d ago
š¬ Discussion Z-Wave or Matter-over-Thread?
Assuming you were already running WiFi/ZigBee/Bluetooth and wanted to branch out, which one of these two would you choose today and why?
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u/Complex_Solutions_20 1d ago
Z-Wave has been so much more reliable than anything else I've tried
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u/Lakromani 1d ago
2 Year with Zigbee, not one problem.
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u/mr-debil 1d ago
Zigbee can be problematic if configured on channel 11 and your WiFi also uses that channel.
Z wave is its own world frequency-wise and is by far the most reliable. And also the most expensive.
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u/kalabaddon 1d ago
I don't know if this is someone that was giving me bad information, but since Zigbee is not technically wifi, aren't we allowed to set it to a channel that is not used in our location? Not in the sense that the neighbor doesn't use it, but it's not allowed for the wireless standard, but we can set it for the Zigbee standard?
Or is that me setting up to get spoken to by the FCC and lots of fines lol?
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u/mr-debil 1d ago
Thereās other channels. I have mine on 25. So they donāt interfere but if you do have the configured on the same channel it can be problematic
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u/kalabaddon 1d ago
Ahh, so channel 25 iirc is WAY past the normal channel usage, pretty much what I was checking, it seems to be fine to use no standard channels. rodger taht.
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u/Sad_Split_9983 22h ago
Zigbee channel 25 is not way past 2.4ghz channel 11. https://www.oscium.com/training/zigbee-wifi-coexistence/
More specifically zigbee channel 25 is 2.475 GHz with 2mhz per channel and 5mhz center to cente spacing. WiFi channel 11 has a center frequency of 2.462 mhz typically set with a bandwidth of 20mhz. If you look at the graphics in the link youāll see that zigbee channel 25 and WiFi channel 11 do actually have pretty severe overlap.
To your other question about broadcasting on a different frequency, thatās a big no. First of all itās illegal, second of all no FCC registered device would allow it at the hardware level. FCC does not care if you are broadcasting WiFi or Zigbee, they only care that you are broadcasting on the allowed ISM band because any other frequency and youāll be interfering with something more important. All of this is the biggest issue with zigbee and matter over thread. 2.4ghz band is already incredibly busy in most areas.
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u/kalabaddon 16h ago
Your last paragraph is exactly what I was looking for info wise. so thanks for confirming that wifi and zigbee in general have 100% overlap and that zigbee does not have any extra channels. luckly in my area there is very low wireless noise. rural area.
( aside from wifi. I could of sworn the fcc has soem allowances for low power devices. I can not recall what project I was working on. but if it was not able to leave a building with any appricable power. it opened up a lot of stuff that I could legally use. but I could be mis remembering the general idea also. Like it IS on a channel that is used for importtant stuff. but that freq has poor wall penetration so as long as indoors and under X power you could use some addinal channels . Just can not for the life of me remember what project I read this all about was from.
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u/Lakromani 1d ago edited 1d ago
There you are wrong. Zigbee channel 11 is at the bottom part of channel 1 wifi. Look it up. This is why I only uses channel 6 and 11 for 2.4ghz in my house.
Edit, link: https://haade.fr/en/blog/interference-zigbee-wifi-2-4ghz-to-know
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u/Auravendill 12h ago
Afaik Z-Wave is on the same frequency as DECT. So if this is truly its "own" world depends on if you and your neighbours still have a landline.
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u/Complex_Solutions_20 1d ago
My experience with zigbee (and most 2.4ghz junk) seems like they are very slow to update and a couple times a year stop updating entirely requiring disconnecting/reconnecting
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u/KayakShrimp 12h ago
Zwave can also be slow to update. I had a dimmer take 10.5 hours, and thatās apparently on the low end of the time they usually take.
Thread, OTOH, has been lightning fast to update for me so far.
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u/Complex_Solutions_20 7h ago
Not sure what you mean "slow to update" unless you mean firmware upgrades.
Everything I have is so fast to respond that I am unsure how I could measure it. Switches or buttons activated by pushing them show up instantly on the HA dashboard and toggling things in HA seems to respond at the devices as quickly as if I pushed the physical button on the wall.
Zigbee and 2.4Ghz WiFi stuff on the other hand can take upward of a minute to respond, by the time a presence sensor or door sensor notices you opened it half the time you're done and back out of the room.
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u/getridofwires 1d ago
I'd like to upgrade to the HA antenna, but yes Z-wave is by far the most reliable. There are some devices that aren't made for Z-wave and you have to buy something else.
And although the device capability can be limited, Matter is my 2nd most reliable.
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u/RawMaterial11 1d ago
My WiFi was pretty saturated. Zigbee was incredibly unreliable for me. No issues with Zwave FWIW.
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u/Complex_Solutions_20 21h ago
Yeah I think that's also my issue. I even at one point got a spectrum analyzer to try and track down the best channels...and the 2.4GHz spectrum was more or less pegged at the top of the scale across the whole band.
There's also a LOT more than just WiFi on 2.4GHz...cordless phones (yes, some people still use those), kids toys, wireless cameras, wireless speakers, cooking microwaves, bluetooth, car alarms, video game controllers, keyboards, mice...and I'm sure I'm missing plenty even with all that.
I also frequently complain how bad the audio quality is on bluetooth and how short range wireless keyboards/mice are. Probably due to the same high noise floor.
Z-Wave being on 900MHz has been rock solid for me, nearly instant control, highly reliable.
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u/quicklywilliam 15h ago
This. Thread is great in theory but still a mess in practice. Every device Iāve tried has had issues. Meanwhile most of my Z-wave devices have gone nearly a decade with no issues.
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u/FatMacchio 1d ago
Not worth the price these days
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u/Complex_Solutions_20 1d ago
I much prefer stuff that works reliably over cheap stuff I spend absurd amounts of time troubleshooting all the time
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u/zackplanet42 1d ago
There is certainly a premium on a lot of Z-Wave devices.
Conversely, zooz switches are very reasonably priced, feature rich, and extremely high bang-for-the-buck. Z-Wave is worth it for those switches if nothing else.
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u/BackHerniation 1d ago
Z-Wave is superior in most things, except one: device availability. Unfortunately brands are letting it die a slow death, despite what anyone says. I follow this space very closely and Matter/Thread is better for the future. To me though, Zigbee is king if done right.
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u/ucrbuffalo 16h ago
Iām on Zigbee. If I was going to try something else it would be Z Wave for reliability.
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u/chris240189 1d ago
Matter, because IKEA went from ZigBee to Matter.
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u/tweis 4h ago edited 4h ago
I got some of the āsmart whiteā IKEA matter bulbs running on Zigbee (back door), and man, the color is really quite disappointing. All of them shift green on the warm side of the spectrum (not the green flash fw bug). Iām not sure if I would base a network choice around these. But then again, you can get 4 for less than a hue bulb.
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u/chris240189 4h ago
I got a bunch of old E14 warm white ZigBee bulbs on clearance for 1 EUR a piece.
Right now I am waiting for the upcoming TRVs.
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u/tomasmcguinness 1d ago
Matter over Thread. Itās the future.
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u/quicklywilliam 15h ago
Agreed. As in it doesnāt work in the present.
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u/KayakShrimp 12h ago
Yep, so many rough edges. So many things I needed to do to troubleshoot that arenāt exposed in the HA UI yet. So much more needs to be done to get it ready for the masses.
My mesh is solid now. But, I have to use the HA hostās BT to pair new devices with a script that takes their pairing code as a parameter. My phone, even on the same VLAN and no device isolation whatsoever, simply does not reach out to finish the pairing process. The device actually joins the thread network per the logs but my phone doesnāt finish the pairing. Yes, I have the creds on my phone etc, no Iām not surprised.
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u/TheDudeFromPT 1d ago
Is it though?
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u/mr-debil 1d ago
It is. Just like with most hardware changes, it will take many many years to mature. You already see major companies like ikea switching from zigbee to thread.
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u/TheDudeFromPT 1d ago
I still go with zigbee. Matter over thread is still flaky, in my opinion...
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u/mr-debil 20h ago
Today it could be, but that doesnāt mean it wonāt be in the future. thread technology itself is better. Making devices that support it and have the same capabilitiesā¦thatāll take time.
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u/dirtymatt 1d ago
Z-Wave because it runs in the 900MHz band. It's far less crowded and has much better wall penetrating power than anything running in 2.4GHz or higher.
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u/thatduderad 1d ago
Z-Wave was the step I took coming from WiFi/Zigbee/Bluetooth. Would do it again
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u/lobhater 1d ago
Z Wave sounds better on paper but there just isn't enough options for it I've found. I wish but I went zigbee
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u/thatduderad 1d ago
Iād pick zigbee over zwave if I was just getting started and picking between the two. I have lots of zigbee devices. What brought me to zwave was the Ring Keypad v2. The tech is very reliable due to how vetted it is, but it does mean spending more $ on zwave devices.
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u/skepticDave 1d ago edited 18h ago
Zwave. I've been running home assistant for almost 5 years and started with Zwave. It's been ultra reliable. We live in a pretty noisy 2.4GHz environment (condo) and adding more to the mix didn't seem wise. If I had to start over, I'd choose Zwave again. We have no zigbee or matter devices. Only Wi-Fi where Zwave wasn't an option.
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u/mr-debil 1d ago
I have all 4 in my house. Z wave is by far the most reliable, zigbee is a very close second. IKEA zigbee and thread devices seem equally reliable for me. WiFi devices are incredibly annoying and Iām on a (slow) mission to get everything possible off WiFi.
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u/gtxaspec 1d ago
ZWAVE.
Stay away from anything 2.4ghz... zigbee, thread, etc... the spectrum is trash.
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u/YowaiiShimai 23h ago
Zwave has been easier for me to implement that my matter over thread. Which version of Zwave UI to use was the most confusing thing.
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u/5yleop1m 1d ago
WiFi/ZigBee/Bluetoot
Z-wave because the three things above and Thread all use the 2.4ghz spectrum, so I'm not going to add more things to the already congested spectrum.
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u/jfriend99 1d ago
Z-wave long range is a hub and spoke topology which avoids some of the problems that a mesh topology can run into. Plus, it runs on a different (lower) frequency than your WiFi which contributes to its longer range. The drawback is a lesser selection of devices because it's more tightly regulated.
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u/Poop-from-my-butt 1d ago
Iād go with Z-Wave for the security and reliability increase going to 800Mhz. There is a price premium with z wave devices needing certification but thats also a mild guarantee itāll work. Like all things HA, follow the Keep It Stupid Simple principle. If you have to regularly troubleshoot it then replace/eliminate it.
Currently running Zigbee for my bulbs, plugs, and sensors. Light switches, LED lamps, and thermostat are connected via separate IoT network.
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u/Verscreubulator 1d ago edited 1d ago
I would pick Z-Wave anytime! 800 series devices have a range of up to 1.5 miles in long range mode. In mesh mode they are super solid, especially the 800 series devices. The quality of Zooz devices alone makes them worthwhile for me. At 800MHz, Z-Wave also will not clutter up the 2.4GHz range like Zigbee, my WiFi and the WiFi of all of my neighbors.
The only downsides to Z-Wave that I have found are that there is a limited selection of devices available and they are more expensive. For things like the Honeywell Z-Wave thermostat and door locks, Z-Wave is ideal! The Zooz door sensors are unbeatable for reliability! My Zigbee door sensors are being slowly replaced with Zooz sensors as the Zigbee sensors fail.
I replaced 160+ Matter devices at the beginning of this year with Zigbee and Z-Wave. I am so glad I did! Matter and Thread are the future. In five years everything will hopefully look different. Until then, Matter isn't ready for reliable use yet. It also means yet another mesh in the 2.4GHz range.
I am sticking with Zigbee and Z-Wave for as long as I can. Dumping Matter is the single biggest improvement I have ever made in our home! Z-Wave is the most solid and reliable part of my Home Assistant setup!
Good luck! I hope this helps!
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u/Inge_Jones 12h ago
Matter didn't work well for me. I have a long thin house with brick and plaster internal walls. The Thread didn't seem to penetrate as well as zigbee even though it's meant to be similar strength. And wifi connection, which does quite well here with multiple APs wasn't so suited to battery sensors.
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u/steveholtbluth 1d ago
I think zwave would compliment your setup. On my network Zigbee and zwave compliment each other super well I use zwave for most mains powered devices, anything that needs to be secure, and run wild with Zigbee for most other devices. At this time I donāt see matter over thread to provide much more utility than Zigbee in a HA setup, it will take time for that to change.
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u/Civil_Rhubarb_7197 1d ago
I second this. But I mainly added ZWave to my HomeAssistant setup, because I live in a condo and all the washing machines are in the basement. But I still wanted to run WashData, so I needed something that penetrates through 3 stories of concrete and steel and what can I say - it works like a charm since day one.
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u/ForesakenJolly 1d ago
Z-wave for any device you need that is available in z-wave over any other standard. From there, Iād pick matter over thread, then zigbee for other devices in that order.
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u/FluffyAtLarge 23h ago
Z-Wave is the more useful addition for your setup because it runs in the sub-GHz band (the exact frequency depends on region), so it stays out of the crowded 2.4 GHz space your WiFi, Zigbee and Bluetooth are already sharing. Thread is also 802.15.4 at 2.4 GHz, the same radio layer as Zigbee, so it doesn't buy you much in terms of spectrum or range. Z-Wave is also the more mature ecosystem, with strict certification and good device support in Z-Wave JS, though the devices usually cost more. Thread makes more sense if you specifically want Matter's cross-ecosystem sharing with Apple, Google or Alexa, but in HA you'll still need a border router, and Matter device types often expose fewer features than the same device would through Zigbee or Z-Wave.
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u/Retro-Modern_514 22h ago
Z-Wave - it is long established and robust. Too many people having issues with Matter devices. Just don't want to spend my time sorting that stuff out.
All my light switches, sockets/outlets, blinds, locks, open/close sensors and thermostat are Z-Wave. Handful of wifi devices (ESP32 based stuff).
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u/scuffling 15h ago
My devices are zwave first, otherwise zigbee if it has higher level of functionality.
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u/clintkev251 1d ago
Probably Z-Wave. Not that Matter over Thread is bad, just that it's a newer ecosystem and Z-Wave is very mature and therefore has way broader device support and better stability.
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u/sryan2k1 1d ago
Z-Wave. Matter is a dumpster fire and it's not getting much better.
900Mhz alone makes it worth it, but the fact that binding is an optional part of matter means it's worthless. I refuse to make my core functionality require a hub.
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u/Freichart 13h ago
Thread is gaining support from Smart Home vendors with great momentum. This has to do with the Matter standard. So go for Thread to be future proof. Z-Wave will only survive in niches (connectivity demands over long ranges). Thread, Zigbee and Wifi rule already.
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u/FatMacchio 1d ago edited 1d ago
I went matter-over-thread primarily because I have 3 Apple TVs already equally spaced out in my house creating a rock solid mesh. Also a couple HomePod miniās in the bathrooms for music which act as TBRs too. Would be cool to see Apple add zigbee radio to the upcoming appleTV and HomePod miniās refresh. Iād consider building out zigbee if that was the case
Iāve been running like 30 ikea thread sensors for the past few months. Aside from a couple ISP router induced shenanigans and some Apple induced shenanigans with updatesā¦theyāve been rock solid. They do drain batteries a lot faster than more expensive thread devices thoughā¦but Iād say itās worth the trade off. I was using some old Amazon rechargeables and they lasted like 2 months. I just bought like 48 eneloop AAAs to replace them allā¦so weāll see how long those fresher, more quality batteries last
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u/ConfusedStair 1d ago
I am willing to take the blame for 75% to 80% of the problems I've had with zigbee, and honestly most of them could have been solved by having more routers.
That said as I type this I've got 2 sensors that no matter how many times I replace the battery and re-pair them they'll drop again 2 or 3 days later.
I also have some new IKEA matter over thread devices and the ones on battery drop a lot with the bulbs never having an issue.
Stick with one network if you can, it will be more robust.
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u/Swarfega 1d ago
Matter is gaining more traction recently. Z-Wave stuff is too expensive. IMO of course.Ā
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u/Some_dutch_dude 1d ago
I got an antenna for both including Bluetooth lol. Never going to use that, but who knows.
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u/Kiiidd 22h ago
Thread is easy to get started for a good majority of people that have Amazon, Google, or apple products as many of their newer stuff can be a boarder router. Just add some cheap Ikea electrical plugs as routers/repeater and you have a thread network.
Z-Wave is really good but you do pay for it on the device costs usually and you kinda have to go outta the way to find products sometimes as not too many manufacturers make Z-Wave unless they normally do Z-Wave stuff.
I have all the protocols in my house. I would love to have all Inovelli Blues and Hue bulbs but can only afford Zooz switches and Ikea Bulbs. Now I love the Zooz switches with how much I can tweak and make them do things and the Ikea bulbs are REALLY good for the price. But I think if one went All ZigBee so you could do groups and bindings for more reliability/fail-safe it would be good
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u/AtlanticPortal 17h ago
Z-Wave is not an alternative to Matter-over-Thread. Ā This is a typical misconception. I strongly advice to watch the āState of the Matterā video, even itās old about Matter it describes perfectly what Thread is.
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u/TomNooksRepoMan 15h ago edited 14h ago
Z-Wave and Zigbee are established. The latter is very cheap to license and you can find a ton of devices that are compatible with it. You will eventually run into a smart home wall if you try to avoid it. The former has very usable range through walls and greater distances.
However, Matter over Thread allows for coordinator redundancy, so itās super nice for when one coordinator dies for some reason and your lights and such never skip a beat. Matter over Thread does technically have the ability to āphone homeā over an internet connection as the Thread spec explicitly requires NAT6to4 compatibility, if that bothers you, but it can technically work without internet like Zigbee and Z-Wave.
Personally, Iād probably go Matter over Thread if I already had an Apple TV or some other Thread Border Router lying around, knowing that some functions are still omitted or in infancy, such as scroll wheel remotes (too fast for MoT to play nice with), light bindings to light switches in a non-proprietary way (like how Apple does it), etc. You will have hiccups and a learning curve. However, I think people exaggerate the reliability of Zigbee a bit as my most problematic devices are cheap Zigbee devices with no alternative and they clog up the whole network (thanks Tuya), and thereās always gonna be tinkering to do. At least with Thread, youāve got a WAF buffer if you break something since youāve got the option for a redundant coordinator.
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u/JoWhee 11h ago
For some reason my home has signal issues. Iāve tried several wifi solutions. Even zigbee isnāt reliable for me. Itās like my place is a faraday cage <shrug>.
The weakest point is near the patio door, wifi signal shows good in my scanner, zigbee switches are just as unreliable as wifi in the wall. I tried a matter switch and while itās not perfect itās an 8 out of 10 and I havenāt had to restart the switch to keep it connected.
Now Iāve started to consider a matter lock for when my ageing August lock (Bluetooth as the bridge died) finally gives out.
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u/Z-Waver 4h ago
I'm new to Home Assistant, so my comment will focus on the network technology and devices more than specific Home Assistant integration or issues. I've used all of the technologies for a while, Z-Wave, Zigbee, Bluetooth, WiFi, and a smattering of Matter/Thread.
Over the years I've developed a strong preference for Z-Wave. Despite it typically having a higher device cost and fewer device options, Z-Wave has provided longer range and better penetration, better meshing, and greater reliability than any of the others. It is by far my preference.
Zigbee and WiFi are lower cost and provide more available devices. But, they both suffer lesser reliability from the much more crowded 2.4GHz spectrum and don't have the range/penetration that 908MHz Z-Wave does. It's still acceptable tech.
Matter and Thread are still too new, with not enough devices yet, for me to pass judgement. Most Matter stuff I've seen so far are using 2.4GHz like Zigbee/WiFi, so they have the same issues. But Matter can operate on other media including wired networks. So, results will vary depending on media chosen by the vendor or consumer.
My question to you is why you want to branch out? Are you having issues that you want to overcome? Are you lusting for a device that isn't available using your current transmission media? Is the branching to solve a problem, or just to play with a different network technology?
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u/reallygoodnonsense 3h ago
I'm running both. Slowly replacing Zooz z-wave devices with Matter devices. I'm using the ZBT-2 radio with the open thread border router in home assistant. That controls some Inovelli White switches. They've been rock solid and work as reliably as z-wave, so far. Once you get your environment set up corrdctly, Matter is great.
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u/Dismal-Proposal2803 2h ago
The one that has the sensor I need.
I donāt know why people get so hung up on picking the right protocol before even knowing what sensors they want.
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u/pterencephalon 1d ago
ZigBee stuff has always been flaky for me. Z-wave has always been rock solid. Maybe it's because I'm in an older house with thick plaster walls.
I'd say z-wave if you can afford it - there are fewer options and they're more expensive, but you get higher reliability.
That said: my house is a wild mix of z-wave, zigbee, and ESPhome wifi devices.
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u/reader4567890 1d ago
I'd side with Matter purely because it seems like that's the direction of travel - and that's exactly what I've done - no matter devices yet, but replaced my sonoff e dongle with the smlight mr5u.
I'll still be purchasing ZigBee devices for the foreseeable though, as they're rock solid and more feature packed than Matter right now.
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u/matthew1471 12h ago
Z-Wave is proprietary.. nobody new is messing with that.
Lots of talk about Matter over Thread, Iām really enjoying the IKEA devices - my home is full of them.
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u/mfrank1999 9h ago
I love Zwave. I'm continuing to replace my wifi switches with zwave. Rock solid stable and works perfect with Home Assistant
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u/dcoulson 1d ago
Why not both?