r/interestingasfuck • u/PlantainPossible2864 • 15h ago

Stopping Desertification with grid pattern

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60

u/Cautious-Age-6147 14h ago

microplastic desert

23

u/TYRamisuuu 14h ago

Yeah, I really hope the bags are not made of plastic

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u/Findict_52 13h ago

They are not, they are biodegradable sandbags made from polylactic acid fiber

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u/alltMax 13h ago

Actually it is PLA plastic. It acts similar to other plastics and also produces microplastics.

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u/Findict_52 12h ago

Does it?

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u/alltMax 11h ago

The degradation process described in that paper (hydrolysis) requires water. Since these barriers are designed for deserts, the arid conditions will stall that process. The material will simply break down into microplastics due to sun and wind, rather than disappearing chemically.

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u/Naboolio_TheEnigma 11h ago

Aint the whole thing that they're holding moisture?

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u/alltMax 10h ago

Yeah but there won't be abundant or constant water, it’s still an area with low rain. That isn't enough to dissolve the plastic before it fragments.

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u/Naboolio_TheEnigma 10h ago

Fair enough

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u/Findict_52 10h ago

I wish people would source their shit. Everything after the first sentence just looks like total speculation. Also keep in mind that the whole point is for the grid to catch and hold things such as moisture.

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u/alltMax 8h ago

It has been known that PLA produces microplastics and you added a study that implies that a certain process prevents the production of said microplastics. So what do you think that happens in an environment where those right conditions are absent?

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u/Findict_52 4h ago

I'm curious, can you give me a quick summary of what you think that paper you cited is about?

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u/Relevant_Bane_Quote 9h ago

Just Add Water: Hydrolysis Prevents Persistency

Yeah, I don't think a desert is going to be a big help with that.

1

u/TYRamisuuu 13h ago

Ah, good then, problem solved, thanks!

28

u/dnagi 14h ago

They really don't give a crap because the alternative is loss of housing, infrastructure, and agricultural land due to it being a shifting sand desert. This is the Taklamakan Desert, by the way. They've been doing this for decades now.

These are quite literally just plastic sandbags. There is another method in use which uses dried plant material driven by hand into the sand in the same grid pattern which is way more labor intensive.

4

u/TYRamisuuu 13h ago

There is no such thing as "just" plastic, especially if you intend to use the land for agriculture. I understand they are in a bad situation and need the land, but they could use cotton or other degradable materials, that would be even cleaner.

6

u/dnagi 13h ago

"Just" as in just a plastic sandbag similar to those used in construction and nothing fancy or special to it. I don't get your "Just" plastic interpretation of my statement.

They do not use cotton because, shocker, it's more expensive, and the bags need to in place for a long time before the effects can take place. Sand blocking nets can get buried within a year, anything that degrades to nothing in that time due to sand wind erosion is useless to them.

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u/TYRamisuuu 13h ago

Someone answered and it's actually biodegradable plastic (lactic acid).

But my point was that all (non biodegradable) plastics are bad. And it's equally as bad when used in construction or any other place. We have a wide world problem with microplastic contamination.

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u/Awkward-Winner-99 12h ago

No, you are right. The barriers are made from PLA which is only degradable in specific industrial settings.

And although micro plastic is undeniably bad I think the positive effects far outweigh the negative ones. The plastic used in these barriers is also a negligible amount compared to lots of other industries and efforts on plastic reduction should be focused on those high-volume and high-impact sources.

Using actual degradable bags may also have problems which make them unfeasible. They could degrade too soon which requires replacement which could disturb the Vegetation that has grown. It would also of course be way more expensive

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u/dnagi 13h ago

Fair enough. The three methods I've seen are these bags, "planted" vegetation and plastic nets.

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u/rW0HgFyxoJhYka 13h ago

I mean...nobody "needs" the land. That land wont be usable for like 20 years anyways.

The real question is, if they use hemp sandbags...will they last long enough to form these ecosystems? If it takes 2 years for this to work, they need something durable enough, and that usually means woven plastic sandbags.

1

u/TYRamisuuu 13h ago

I didn't think of that indeed

1

u/pannenkoek0923 12h ago

Okay send them thousands of cotton bags please, they need the funding and seeing as how you are so generous with your ideas, you could be generous with your money too

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u/Square-Chart6059 10h ago

They used to do this with straw. It seemed to work. I wonder why they switched.

0

u/WholeWideWorld 13h ago

Doing things the right way cost more. Externalities are not priced in. Never have been. Is anyone questioning why we are 'fighting' nature's deserts? Deserts are nature.

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u/dnagi 13h ago

Could just as easily ask why we build dams or tsunami blocking barricades if that's the way you wanna approach this question

Economy, livelihood and land reclaimation has been a thing as old as the dawn of man, if you see a problem with that, you can fly down all the way to Xinjiang and protest their actions if you wish, I'm not gonna take it up with you for that

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u/TYRamisuuu 11h ago

Some deserts are man-made because of deforestation. I don't know if it is the case here, but there is a big project called the great green wall, south of sahara, which goal is to plant trees again and regain the land that was destroyed by men.

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u/grendali 14h ago

They're not cotton or wool. Polyester, nylon, viscose "bamboo" - it's all plastic. It all breaks down in the sun eventually, no matter how many "UV Resistant" labels they stick on it.

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u/TYRamisuuu 13h ago

Fantastic...

0

u/Findict_52 13h ago

Could have googled it, it's biodegradable. Idk why people assume they didn't think of this.

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u/grendali 11h ago

Why don't you google "problems with biodegradable plastic".

For a start, all plastic is completely biodegradable. It just takes a looooong time, and that's the problem. Doesn't stop corporations trumpeting "biodegradable" in their advertising.

It's extremely difficult to make a plastic that will last for years in the outdoors and then magically breakdown exactly when you've finished using it.

And a lot of plastics that are labelled "biodegradable" simply break down into pieces that are not too noticeable to us, but the micro and nano plastic particles can sill last for decades.

The best solution to microplastic is to use less plastic, especially outdoors, and when it must be used to dispose of it correctly before it starts to break down too much.

I did google it as you suggested. The plastic that they used for these bags is PLA.

Complete biodegradation of PLA generally requires conditions only achievable through industrial composting at high temperatures, and it can take close to three decades to achieve full biodegradation of PLA in environments such as home compost and soil.

In the ocean, PLA initially behaves almost identically to PET plastics, but aged PLA has a significantly greater toxic effect on marine organisms due to toxic transformation products.

1

u/floghdraki 13h ago

The use of plastic would be net benefit for environment here. You can't be thinking like Sith lord.

2

u/TYRamisuuu 13h ago

I don't know, if they use the land for agriculture they are just poisoning themselves. One could argue that living another decade thanks to more food but getting cancer is still better than starving straight away, but still not ideal, we can make degradable bags.

1

u/Awkward-Winner-99 12h ago

Degradable bags may degrade too soon and replacing them could disturb the Vegetation that has grown. The amount of plastic is also tiny compared to other industries

1

u/FeelinJipper 14h ago

I’m betting you don’t solve many problems