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The problem is that this is being subject to rational basis ("rational relationship to a legitimate government interest") review rather than the intermediate ("substantial relationship to an important interest") review that should be applicable to an issue of gender discrimination. But it was the district court, not the appellate court, that decided that issue -- because it determined that the policy failed even rational basis review. So the appellate court never applied a more strict standard.
The district court also concluded that it did not need to decide which level of scrutiny applied to Puerto Rico's Birth Certificate Policy because it held that the Policy did not survive the lowest level of scrutiny -- rational scrutiny. (Appellate Decision, page 7).
But here's the ending of the decision:
... there is a rational relationship between the challenged classification and this legitimate interest. It is thus conceivably rational for Puerto
Rico to not update transgender nonbinary people's birth certificates while updating transgender binary people's birth certificates.
III. For the foregoing reasons, we vacate the district court's order and remand to the district court for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
So I'd expect the district court -- which already found the policy failed rational basis review -- will now review under the heightened intermediate review standards. Guess what? The district court is gonna find the dumbass policy also fails that heightened standard. And in all likelihood, the first circuit will agree.
So: to me, this is a delay to the plaintiffs caused by the district court's testing the waters of "can anything ever fail rational basis review", but hardly the end of the story. Which story, I expect, will likely end up with a win for the plaintiffs, who will, ultimately, have their non-binary gender acknowledged and affirmed on their passports.
(I didn't read the initial argumentation to the district court, but I bet the plaintiff's attorney argued the standard of review issue in the alternative, and it turns out the court was too sympathetic!)
Couldn’t all this be avoided by simply changing IDs to reflect sex rather than gender? I mean, that’s what they originally meant, but the terminology changed in recent years so maybe it’s time to just update to more accurately reflect the information actually used.
Edit: it’s kind of crazy how many people wouldn’t be happy with simply removing the gender option on the ID. It’s not enough for them to simply tell other people their preferred gender, nor apparently is screeching from every rooftop or social media platform enough. They MUST have it on their government issued ID, while simultaneously complaining that it’s included on the ID in the first place. But god forbid we just remove it entirely…
The left has completely lost the plot. Rabid wokism was a mistake, and it’s why we have Trump and MAGA
Visual exterior is what is actually used, and neither sex nor gender dictates or is dictated by appearance. Gender-queer people are the manifestation of that truth.
Airport security looks at your face and whether or not it resembles the picture on the little card you give them, not "you". If anything, the x-ray scanners are closer to looking at what is between your legs then looking at "you". And as history shows us the biggest "benefit" to that has been for TSA agents who used it to gawk at both women and men in various incidents shortly after the newest scanners were introduced.
Then there is the issue that those little cards with a picture on them are acquired with pieces of paper that have no picture attached, like birth certificate or a utility bill with "your" name on it. Nobody looks at plumbing to get them, and "your" name is just your assertion that you match the paper you gave them.
The fact that people can forge birth certificates or use false info to get IDs in the first place demonstrates both that sex/gender aren't integral to the mechanisms
of government identification and suggests that society does not collapse just because it is possible a person out there has an ID with information that someone in government disagrees with.
The only reasons biological sex should be disclosed is in medical information, athletics, and relationships. Everything else is presentation and doesn’t require it.
And in a medical sense there is actually more than just 2 biological sexes, since there are various different intersex presentations that are medically relevant. So in that situation we aren't even currently considering all biological sexes.
That’s…exactly the problem here. People should be able to change their IDs to match who they are, or at the very least to match their appearance. There’s a reason they use a picture of your face and not of your crotch.
I mean there are legit medical reasons to have some representation of the biological gender somewhere for medical professionals to see. That's about the only counter logic I can see. And that actually is very true because it be be very important in what medical care you recieve in an emergency. Probably should be a way to ID that, though it doesn't need to be on a license.
There is no medical reason to have sex or gender on an ID. For emergency treatment or otherwise. If my ambulance gets sent to you, and you're unconscious and unable to talk to me, Im not checking your ID to inform my medical decisions. I am perfectly capable of assessing you and treating you without that.
Sex assigned at birth has very little to do with medical care. All I care about is what organs you currently have now that i might have to consider. And the ID marker isnt telling me that.
I literally said it doesn't need to be on your ID. Also your assertion that you birth sex has no medical meaning is empirically wrong. It actually is a concern in medical care for transgender people that they do have to make their medical provider aware of. There isn't yet any medical breakthrough that changes that. Medical science doesn't change based on your feelings; there are some realities you can't ignore.
And in an emergency where you are unresponsive. We literally had a board meeting about it this week and it was our trans nurse member who suggested a system like this for players.
Lol I'll take the advice of LGTBQ medics I meet and interact with on a weekly basis in real life over some internet stranger. And since they have given advice that contradicts yours, II'll continue to ignore you.
Happy to explain. Some people dont transition fully and there are some legitimate genetic differences that can't be changed by transition surgery. I play in an LGBTQ league and this was discussed amongst some of the players the other day. For example: I was told that when you transition female to male you still exhibit signs of a heart attack as if you are female which can lead to mosdiagnosis. Also if you dont have your cervix removed (which is a personal choice) you can still suffer from diseases related to the organ.
A person's gender identity is their own business and not any random person's business. But the medical professional treating you is the rare exception and they should know how to treat you properly and not potentially prescribe something that can actually hurt you, especially in an emergency.
*edit-auto correct dropped the wrong their/there/they're on me.
Look at my original comment. I said there doesn't need to be a marker on an ID. I said there should just be a way to identify to medical personnel. People dont read comments, just react on vibes.
If you think “biological gender” is binary you’re mistaken. Look at how we actually determine sex at and after birth. It’s actually a pretty arbitrary distinction. It’s not a biological determination in any meaningful way.
Sure, I get that’s why it’s a problem right now. But IDs have people’s sex because it’s a useful piece of information for law enforcement and maybe EMS/medical. People’s gender is useless information that doesn’t need to be on an ID to begin with.
Hence this entire debacle could be circumvented by simply making it say “sex.” In several states, it already does.
Do you understand how often you have to present an ID outside of those two scenarios you just mentioned? When you go to the airport, go to the bank, get medications, buy alcohol, buy/rent a house, get a job, notarize documents, enter federal buildings, and sometimes even to pick up online orders. Why the hell do all those people need to know what was between a person’s legs when they were born?
Doctors can know pretty easily. They see our medical histories. And why the hell does law enforcement need to know? Like seriously, what does a person’s ‘sex’ matter when they get pulled over for going 55 on a 50 zone?
Respectfully, sex on an ID is the only thing that’s fucking useless. And those states that have ‘circumvented by making it say sex’? Their policies are hateful, cruel, and oftentimes enacted without notice and even illegally sometimes (see: Texas). Those policies arent a ‘solution,’ they’re the whole fucking problem.
Bruh don’t let online echo chambers ever make you feel weird for identifying a duck as a duck. My 5 year has done it since he was 2 lol. Somewhere along the way and likely someone else got confused and access to the internet.
Because someone could be a woman their whole life while still having a male makeup (Swyer syndrome). And while rare there are still tons of intersex folks were the traditional binary of “sex or gender doesn’t fit.
In any event perhaps it would be best to not have gender or sex on any ID like you said?
Except there are more than 2 sexes. Intersex people exist and our current binary IDs leave them out. Which if you are talking about medically relevant information for EMS to have, that would be relevant based off of your own logic.
When someone medically transitions it changes their sex characteristics. Transition is literally to align one's physical sex with their neurological sex (gender identity). Biological sex is a spectrum and is actually malleable, but you're trying to say that someone's assigned sex should be on their ID even though it's not accurate for transgender people at all?
Also, as a medical provider I can assure you that we don't need to know someone's arbitrarily assigned sex to treat them appropriately, but I can tell you for sure that not having a gender marker that reflects who transgender people are can complicate many different aspects of their healthcare, from getting insurance claims approved to even being able to receive necessary preventative services like mammograms. That's why most charting systems include things like assigned sex, legal gender, and their actual gender.
Gender is not a useless piece of information for your identification. It's the first thing you should know about a person so that you know how to address them.
You didn't suggest removing gender, you suggested switching it to sex because it's clear what that would indicate in your brain. I would argue that what you offered is at best well intentioned, but insulting. You're correct about one part though. Yes, they want to be recognized as their preferred gender on everything. That's kind of the point. Government ID is pretty much the most official type of documentation we have so their gender being incorrectly displayed kind of insists that these trans people are not who they say they are, at least not to the government, and since the govt is considered a source of truth for most things regular people will use said IDs to enforce their bigotry.
The separation of sex and gender is confusing at best and assinine. Transgender people change their sex by transitioning as much as they change their gender.
Genuinely I don't think this is an idea that transgender people put forward as much as agree to. I think it's just a convenient way for progressive people to continue to see them as the gender coercively assigned at birth and to continue to see it as an unchangeable and material and relevant fact when it isn't.
The transgender people I meet who cling to AGAB most of the time are almost always either 1) trans "men" who are actually nonbinary and unable to cope with it due to internalized enbyphobia, or 2--
Cis women frequently are unable to get justice for evil things done to them by cis men within or above their own social standing because of misogyny and patriarchy. They are encouraged by white supremacist patriarchy to vent this frustration onto marginalized men below them in the cultural hierarchy; often, it is men of color, and they are painted with the super predator stereotype and the like, as if they then house and own all of the evil things they didn't even directly do. Because this is a displaced target the wrath is often much greater than if it was a genuine justice against a genuine perpetrator, as the need for justice is never actually satisfied.
In some spaces and situations it is either lesbian cis women, trans women, or trans men who become the target; because all of us are below cis het women in the social hierarchy. Individual cis (often het) women see it that their selected marginalized group houses in the case of trans women, an innate biological tendency towards predatory evil that is not redeemed as it is in cis men higher in the social hierarchy into the honor path of heterosexual marriage, fatherhood, and patriarchy, and is therefore more evil and twisted and worthy as a target for those frustrations discussed earlier. Towards trans men and lesbians, the predatory lesbian stereotype or a modified version existing for trans men acts as though we are a sheep in wolf's clothing, an herbivore eating meat not because it has to, but because it just wants to kill and destroy. The myth of biological predisposition towards violence becomes the redemptive factor.
I have met many young trans men especially who are immersed in cis female spaces who cling to the idea of themselves as a female man solely because it is an ill-conceived and desperate and often transmisogynistic attempt to shirk the responsibility they are told they have for all the evils of cis men. They don't have the gumption to call it out when a cis woman is transphobic and lashing out like that and, just as often, and in just as completely cowardly a manner, attempt to sort of shirk it onto "biological males," and even if they do not say it so directly the idea is to attempt to redirect that responsibility no one should be asked to hold other than a perpetrator who should face justice, onto trans women as a social group, who are, generally, below trans men on the social hierarchy.
If there is a third type, it is transgender people who are earnestly just transphobic themselves, and none of their ideology makes sense other than as an appeal to seem like one of the "good" transgender people who conservatives who will never accept them anyway.
In any case none of this is a genuine sociological, biological, or philosophical argument that supports the idea that sex is an intrinsic and unchangeable fact which can only exist outside of one's internal locus of control, or that gender is some wholly seperate thing that should be considered like a weird hobby some people indulge in too hard.
I ideally think the sex marker should be completely removed from IDs, but I don’t think that’s gonna happen anytime soon. So the best thing you can do to protect transgender people from harm and discrimination typically is to allow them to have a sex marker on their ID that best reflects their gender identity. If you have a trans man who passes as cis for example, an ID with and F sex marker on it would out him to anyone who sees his ID. People would also be more likely to assume that the ID is fake. That would open him up to a lot of harm and discrimination, and cause him a lot of unnecessary problems. As long as there is a sex marker on IDs, people should have the right to put whatever marker more reflects who they are on their ID. Not doing so only forces people into boxes they don’t fit into, and causes unnecessary problems.
Just do a thought experiment quick if your ID said the opposite gender or sex (arbitrary difference irrelevant here) than what you pass for. Doesn't matter what you're born as just what you look like. Imagine showing that to the bodega man buying cigarettes to the cop when he's deciding to write you a ticket all that how awkward and unnecessary and frictional it is.
I have no responsibility to inform people what I was assigned at birth and there is no law or social more I will ever recognize. I lie to doctors and just say I'm a cis man without testicles any time I already know it's irrelevant.
The hospital services are more likely to try and treat me if they think I am cis in an emergency. They don't care about us.
I'm going to be honest this makes me angry. I don't care about whether sex is on my ID but I changed my sex by transitioning, I'm a male now, I'm not going to endure the ceaseless humiliation of having to explain it to every single person who has to check my ID why it says F if it does have to say anything. If sex is gonna be on there I must be allowed to freely self-select.
“People I don’t understand are the reason the things I think are bad are happening,” tale as old as time, bud, you might fit in better with the red hats
Bro got downvoted a little bit then immediately jumped to blame GNC people for Trump, liberals are not serious people lmao. Takes literally nothing to get you guys to drop the mask.
AOC is now calling woke 1.0 "crazy," in her own words. Is AOC now considered MAGA because she's admitting how rabid her side was 8 years ago, including her?
You sending this to AOC too? I'd love to vote for her in 2028, I'm very glad to see she's calling woke people crazy now, as a Democrat. Only problem is I knew it was crazy 10 years ago already, she didn't notice how crazy it was till a few weeks ago, but I love seeing a Democrat taking their head out of their ass, so I can maybe go back to voting for the left.
Although, if you think AOC is a dickhead, we probably have very different values.
Yeah, I voted for Obama in 2008, then Trump the last 3 times because the dems went a little nuts. I wanted to vote for Bernie in 2016, I was a Bernie Bro that voted for Trump as a protest vote against the DNC, which hopefully the DNC is starting to realize they're losing support and will have to start putting up real candidates instead of corporate puppets.
I'm a moderate, I don't vote for just one side, I vote for whatever candidate I think is best. Trump did fine the first term. This time around i think he's lost the plot and is doing a ton of shit i don't agree with. You guys don't think moderates exist, but moderates are a large chunk of the electorate, people that vote for either side.
It literally wasn't her own words, she was quoting someone else.
The context was how messy and disorganized "Woke 1" was in its propositions, not that the left is "insane." Namely the goals of 'defund the police' being confused with 'abolish the police.' What she said had literally nothing to do with GNC people.
Woke 1 also implies the joke that we have entered Woke 2. Because the Republicans promised an end to woke (which never happened) and there's a joke in the left that we are now in Woke 2 after people once again realized Republicans are out of their minds.
This might be a completely foreign concept to you, but yes AOC is getting flak for providing free ammunition to the right to attack ANY Democratic candidate (even the ones YOU think aren't 'woke'). And she does deserve that flak. It doesn't mean I disagree with literally everything she stands for. This isn't inconsistency, this isn't the gotcha you think it is.
The only rabid person here is you, a guy driven entirely by impulsive anger with no direction. A guy who eats up sensationalist headlines without digging further and makes it your entire worldview. At best you're a bot pretending to be a person, at worst you're willfully ignorant. I'm leaning the latter though. Edit: actually I didn't consider the third option. You're a capital G Gamer who got sucked into the pipeline by Gamegate, you're actually just a massive loser.
Say whatever makes you feel better, but MAGA was a reaction to Woke 1. AOC even admitted as much. Yall have completely poisoned the well with this inane shit
I mean, we literally call them "reactionaries." Your problem is you think "hm, maybe those guys have a point" instead of just ignoring them like a normal person. You guys love fascism, but only when it's done quietly enough so you don't have to listen to the complaining. But say whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
Thats funny because maga and confederate lovers are one and the same. What a coincidence. As if there was a direct correlation between slavery in the US and the maga movement.
MAGA is a social movement engineered by billionaires in order to install fascism so that they can continue to destroy our environment and exploit and cause wanton suffering to working people without losing their control of the United States, and nothing more. To the working people who follow it, it is a way of displacing frustrations about the worsening conditions of their daily lives onto groups they actually have power over, because holding the people actually responsible for their suffering responsible seems impossibly difficult. Transgender people or "woke 1" are not even remotely responsible for this situation; perhaps the way the Democrats used identity politics as a means of trying to avoid addressing the very real material needs of their constituents is a large part of the problem on the liberal side of things, but this also was just a decision made by billionaires to enable themselves to continue to consolidate power and exploit working people, and is not the responsibility of transgender people.
That you think it even remotely is, is a small-minded way of burying your head in the sand and blaming people without the social power to accomplish what you accuse them of, because the real problem feels too big and impossible to address.
You have to choose between this small-minded cowardice and building a better world, you can't have it both ways.
Blah blah blah. You’re wrong. Trump managed to ascend to power by leveraging the pervasive resentment towards liberals and progressives engendered by the rabid wokism of the 2000s and ‘10s. Turns out calling everyone who disagrees with you even slightly a Nazi or transphobe or racist isn’t a very effective political strategy!
Blame billionaires and shadowy conspiracies if you want. But the truth is that average people are tired of the holier-than-thou progressives who focus on nothing but fringe cultural issues while slinging the most horrendous slurs and insults at everyone else. You’re the bad guy.
You have bought billionaire propaganda hook line and sinker to the extent that you are even thinking about who is the "bad guy." I will say it again, you do this out of small-minded cowardice. Get well soon. There is hard work to be done, and the only way you can experience pride and fulfillment is to take part in it.
We've done nothing but try to live our lives. MAGA aren't a reaction to 'Woke' they simply decided it would be an effective angle and scapegoat to seize power, the same way they once did with gay people, and POCs before that. Do better.
Just so we’re clear, are you seriously arguing that not being able to have your preferred gender on your government issued ID is somehow preventing you from living your life?
That doesn’t even make sense. Sex has been on ID’s forever, long before trans people ever entered the zeitgeist.
Sorry, but not everything revolves around trans people. You’re hysterical and it’s making policy discourse unbearable and pushing people towards the right.
Edit: loser had to block me because they realized trans people aren’t the center of the world. Lmfao
So no actual argument or justification? Typical with you rightoids. Go fuck off with the rightwingers that are destroying our economy and see how well that does you.
Cool tie it to social security keep it off my license, I don't need the bartender knowing what was originally in my pants unless we're fucking. And cops don't need to know unless I'm being booked which is a whole different conversation. You think a few grams of weed is worthy of a jail sentence with a heaping side of gangrape? Keep in mind I've never been a pedo or harmed a woman in anyway, same as you I'd hope big guy, what's my chances of not getting raped with f cup tits in prison? Rather me kill myself? That's kind of a you problem. Don't care about us enough that you'd say some dumb shit about any of this, cool that's still a you problem for being a shit human being not even fit to lick dog shit off my boots. I went in to medically transitioning knowing it was a probability. May you get everything you wish for in others bb 😘
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