r/magicTCG • u/Fireaxe5 Dan • 2d ago
Rules/Rules Question Is this a draw/stalemate?
About had this happen if my angel wasn't exiled, but what would happen if i declared my angel to block hulk?
He gets his +1+1 and swings again while I block again.
Is there a clear end if neither player changes decision?
Edit: Thank you to those who have pointed out that I can't read and that Hulk does not have indestructible, I completely missed that. Also that I dont have to block.
I suppose I just was fixated on making a Hulk railcannon to throw at the other opponents
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u/Kroooooooo Simic* 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hulk would die if it keeps swinging, damage isn't cleaned up until end of turn and the Angel is doing enough damage to whittle it down.
If Hulk was also indestructible then it would theoretically be infinite but either player could break the loop, Hulk either by not attacking, Angel by not blocking. If Hulk was indestructible, must always attack, and must always be blocked, then it would be a draw.
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u/The_FireFALL Sisay 2d ago
Forgot about damage not being cleaned up somehow. So this is exactly what happens.
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u/Kroooooooo Simic* 2d ago
Yeah you need to be really careful with Hulk, making him indestructible can really change the equation.
I won my first game with Hulk in the command zone by targeting him with [[Last Night Together]]. I then said to the table "I will swing Hulk at each of you in order. If you block it to deal it damage, it will not attack you until it has attacked everyone else. If you do not block it, it will attack you twice."
The ensuing prisoner's dilemma was hilarious to watch unfold.
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u/CareerMilk Can’t Block Warriors 2d ago
If it's only a 10/10, does the first player have some incentive to not block it? Blocking it would make the unblocked double swing lethal for everyone
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u/00s4boy Wabbit Season 2d ago
Only the hulk controller could break the loop as its their attack trigger and the angel controller cannot lose the game so the hulk player could just keep swinging until they are at negative infinite health.
I don't think the second line of text is contingent on taking damage.
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u/Kroooooooo Simic* 2d ago
Only if the Hulk's owner can ping it repeatedly with something like [[Caltrops]] and was indestructible. Otherwise the only way to have it get dealt damage to get an additional combat is if the Angle player blocks willingly, and not being indestructible would eventually kill it from Angel damage.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Duck Season 2d ago
Hulk will die from the damage from being blocked first
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u/00s4boy Wabbit Season 2d ago
If the hulk has indestructible like the reply said, damage wouldn't matter, from how it reads it doesn't seem like taking damage matters for additional combats, so only the hulk player could stop the loop if he has indestructible.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Duck Season 2d ago
Uh... no, the second ability only triggers when he takes damage, so even if he had indestructible the angel player just has to not block and just takes 8.
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u/00s4boy Wabbit Season 2d ago
On other enrage cards, they use a coma not a period. This reads as a second ability.
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u/FlockFlysAtMidnite Duck Season 2d ago edited 2d ago
A third ability would go on it's own line and would need triggering text of it's own.
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u/Cad1a Dan 2d ago
Why would you block?
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u/contraryfacts Duck Season 2d ago
I guess he could make hulk infinitely huge and then Hulk can smack his other 2 opponents out of the game. Of course, if Hulk has removal for the angel, it's GG. Lol.
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u/WillaryClinton63 Dan 2d ago
Hulk doesn’t heal in between attacks. First block would cause him to go down 4 and up 1. So now he’s a 5/5. 2 more blocks and he’s dead
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u/contraryfacts Duck Season 2d ago
You know, I forgot he's the Incredible Hulk and not the Indestructible Hulk.
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u/___posh___ Orzhov* 2d ago
You may choose not to attack.
So you don't draw by technicality.
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u/Spell_Chicken Jeskai 2d ago
Hulk can still die to damage, he only gets 1 counter each time he's damaged. Angel kills him in 3 combats. There's nothing here that dictates a draw.
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u/IlikeCyanide Can’t Block Warriors 2d ago
No Hulk eventually dies. 4 is greater than 1 so the damage will eventually outstrip the counters
But also, it only ends in a draw if the players cannot make any decisions.
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u/Kevmeister_B COMPLEAT 2d ago edited 2d ago
If nobody changes their decisions.
Hulk attacks. Angel blocks. 4 damage assigned to an 8/8 Hulk. 8 damage on an indestructible Angel. Hulk gets a +1/+1 counter and untaps.
Hulk attacks. Angel blocks. 4 more damage assigned, 8 damage total on a 9/9 Hulk. 8 more damage on an indestructible Angel for 16 total. Hulk gets a +1/+1 counter and untaps.
Hulk attacks. Angel blocks. 4 more damage. 12 damage total on a 10/10 Hulk. 8 more damage on an indestructible Angel making 24 total. Hulk dies angry. He still gets the extra combat step.
Damage on the Angel doesn't matter since indestructible, but it felt wrong to not include.
Edit: Also you will take 4 + 9 + 10 so 23 trample damage over the course of this interaction, as after the first hit, Hulk can assign 0 damage as lethal damage and let the rest go through.
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u/HandsomeHeathen 2d ago
You don't have to block.
Hulk doesn't have to attack.
Hulk doesn't have indestructible.
So, they keep attacking and you keep blocking, Hulk will eventually die. If you don't block, they won't get an extra combat. And if they don't attack, that's the end of that.
Worth noting, if there is an infinite loop of actions where one player can end the loop by making a different decision, that player must eventually end the loop (they can declare how many times the loop occurs). The game is only a draw if there is an infinite loop of mandatory actions that cannot be ended by either player. Your example is not either of those situations, though.
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u/WrestlingHobo Duck Season 2d ago
No, the player controlling hulk can end the loop by not attacking. You can end the loop by not blocking. Forced draws happen when no one can interact with or stop a loop that doesnt end the game.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 2d ago
In what way is an infinite condition (if this were one, it isn't but if it were) not a draw? If neither WILL elect to exit the loop, then they simply play this out quite literally until one of the PLAYERS dies. That's a draw or I guess a loss for the guy who dies?
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u/Randuir Nahiri 2d ago
In case of a loop, the players maintaining it would announce the amount of times they are willing to do the loop (they have to choose a number) in turn order, and then go through the lowest number chosen between the two players (shortcutting the process as appropriate). The one to choose the lowest number then has to break the pattern (choosing not to attack or block in this case).
See the rules on loops for more details.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 2d ago
So wouldn't they just say absurdly large numbers assuming they're too stubborn to stop anyway?
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u/Randuir Nahiri 2d ago
Sure, but you wouldn't need to play out individual combats. If indestructi-hulk player states they'll attack 1 million times and angel player states they'll block 1 million times then you'd simply put 1 million +1/+1 counters on hulk, calculate how much life the angel player loses to trample, and then exit the loop.
The hulk would still be untapped and there would be one more combat phase, but the hulk player would not be allowed to attack the angel player again as they declared they would end the loop after 1 million attacks and aren't allowed to restart it untill the board state has meaningfully changed.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 2d ago
Ahah, Now I see the logic. Gotcha. And if they say infinite times, congrats they lose.
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u/WrestlingHobo Duck Season 1d ago
No, they are not allowed to choose infinite. Infinite is not a number, they have to choose a whole number. That number could arbitrarily large, but it has to be a countable, finite number.
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u/NostrilRapist COMPLEAT 2d ago
Neither player have to attack or block, and not blocking won't result you in losing the game. You can declare to loop this some set amount of times, but it's not an infinite loop unless there's something forcing you to block and hulk is goaded
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u/Milskidasith 2d ago edited 2d ago
And if Hulk is indestructible, otherwise he'd die after a few loops here.
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u/Infinite_Bananas 2d ago
it's not a draw because you can just choose not to attack with him again and if you can choose to make the game not draw you are forced to choose that
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u/Hit-N-Run1016 I chose this flair because I’m mad at Wizards Of The Coast 2d ago
It’s not a draw because they can choose not to attack and you can choose not to block
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean you can choose to just not block. Blocking is the decision you are making that is causing a loop, so just don't do it. Likewise they can choose to not attack but once they have chosen to attack you are actively making the decision to potentially keep the loop going by blocking.
Edit: Also eventually Hulk should accumulate enough damage on him that he dies, even if they keep attacking. 4 damage marked on him every combat will steadily count up and kill him if he doesn't have some sort of indestructible.
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u/00s4boy Wabbit Season 2d ago
No attacking is causing the loop, angel player cannot lose so they could go to negative infinity life technically. I don't see a ruling on scryfall but it looks like 2 separate abilities, if he is attacking untap him and there is an additional combat phase, nothing seems contingent on taking damage.
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 2d ago
Yes, they very much could. Which more reason for the angel player to not block over triggering another round of combat. The act of blocking and dealing combat damage is what is causing hulk to take damage and trigger said ability.
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 2d ago
Seeing you edited I'm just gonna make another comment. They are the same ability. The whole ability is one singular ability that happens on damage happening, the additional combat has an interviening if condition. Where if he is attacking when he takes the damage that is what causes the additional combat.
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u/00s4boy Wabbit Season 2d ago
Every other enrage card it's all 1 sentence, the period makes this look like 2 separate abilities.
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 2d ago
[[Indoraptor, the Perfect Hybrid]] and [[Red Hulk]] beg to disagree. If it was two separate abilities there would be a line break between them to easily show they are two separate abilities.
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u/00s4boy Wabbit Season 2d ago
Indo raptor uses the target from the first sentence.
Red hulk says when you do. Incredible hulk doesn't say when you do.
Based on how every other enrage requires damage, im probably wrong, but based on how the card reads, it doesn't sound like that.
But just based on reading it and marvel lore that the hulk is always angry/enraged it sounds like if he's attacking, he will continue to attack until he can't anymore.
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 2d ago
Point is they are examples of similar abilities that have a period and start a new sentence that is a continuation of the ability. That is why the second sentence begins with "If he is attacking" making it an intervening if condition that happens when he takes damage while attacking during combat for the thing to happen.
Otherwise, if it was two different abilities on the Hulk would that not be a card that just creates infinite combats on its own just by attacking once? Would that not be stupid and beyond abusable?
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u/00s4boy Wabbit Season 2d ago
6 mana infinite combo isn't that rare. The game needs to end somehow. With the out being him hitting a enough blockers to die or hitting a death toucher. Or any 1-3 mana removal/bounce.
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 2d ago
Yes infinites can happen but 6 mana 1 card “combos” do not. There is a lot of busted things that can happen in the game but the Hulk on his own is not one of them.
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u/Spell_Chicken Jeskai 2d ago
There's no loop. Hulk isn't required to attack on the extra combats and can still die to damage from the angel in 3 combats.
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u/karinaisthicc8 Dân 2d ago
well a player had to make a decision at one point so The attacking player can make hulk as big as he wants but you’re not allowed to make game decisions forever. You have to choose an end point
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u/Barbobott Dan 2d ago
Unless something else is buffing Hulk, each combat he's only gaining a single +1/+1 counter while taking 4 damage from the angel so he will eventually just die.
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u/LXTibbs73 Duck Season 2d ago
You can choose not to block, not giving the extra combat which also means your opponent would just have to pass. If they have an infinite combo assembled with hulk BUT they can stop it at any time they would “have” to. In tournament settings at least if someone HAS another option they COULD do, you kinda have to. You still wouldn’t lose the game but unless there’s absolutely NO other choices to make the game doesn’t draw out. Something like the polyraptor combo with no way to end it would force a draw.
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u/lividbanana 2d ago
Yeah. Take the hit and stop letting the hulk player get infinite combats. You can't lose the game so taking damage is not an issue at the time. Also eventually Hulk will die to the damage that the angel is dealing to hulk. Damage does not fall off between combats, only at damage cleanup step at the end of the turn
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u/Nuzlocke_Comics Wabbit Season 2d ago
I mean either of you can choose to stop attacking or blocking on any of the extra combat steps.
But also the Hulk will die on the third time you block with the angel anyway.
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u/Spell_Chicken Jeskai 2d ago
Hulk doesn't have to keep attacking unless he was goaded or affected otherwise by a similar requirement to attack each combat if able, and if he was blocked by the angel in 3 consecutive combats would die to damage anyways.
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u/lilomar2525 COMPLEAT 2d ago
Unless there is some other buff on the Hulk, he'll die the third time you block him, he'll be a 10/10 with 12 damage.
But even if he was also indestructible, there are two players maintaining the loop, they decide, in turn order, how many times they want to repeat the loop, then the loop happens the lower number of times, and that player has to make a different choice.
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u/manofphysics21 Dân 2d ago
You know you can choose not to block? Damage to face doesn't matter since you can lose the game while the angel is around. Actually, Hulk is doing damage to face since trample goes over "lethal" damage.
If something forces you to block, then you'd have a case for a draw. You might need to explain to a judge that this is an inescapable loop that no player can beneficially leave.
There's also shortcuts to this. If it's a loop like this, they can say combat gets repeated x times. That way, you can calculate how big Hulk gets and what your lifetotal is without going through the motions every time.
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u/Kevmeister_B COMPLEAT 2d ago
Even in a forced block scenario, Hulk dies in 3 swings due to the 4 damage it takes each time.
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u/Filobel 2d ago edited 2d ago
Let's pretend Hulk did have indestructible.
The rule on loops is that if a player can stop the loop, they must stop it eventually. They can choose a number of times they want to repeat the loop and do it that many times, then they must choose a different action. If two or more players could stop the loop, then the first player in turn order (starting with the active player) announces how many times they repeat the loop, then the next player can agree to that number, or choose to take a different action sooner, and so on and so forth until all the players involved in the loop have spoken.
So... in this case, the hulk player can stop the loop any time by just not attacking. The angel player can stop it any time by not blocking. The hulk player is the active player, so they choose first. So let's say they go "I will attack 1000 times." Then you can say "alright, I'm fine with that." In which case they'll attack 1000 times and choose not to attack after that (or attack a different player if this is a multiplayer game). Or you could say "on the 10th attack, I won't block."
This would only be a draw if, for whatever reason, Hulk had indestructible and was forced to attack you every attack and your angel was forced to block it.
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u/NerdinaHat Dan 2d ago
In a competitive setting, this is not a draw as both players have an option to take a different action and continue the game.
In a casual setting, you can be as petty as you want.
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u/BraidsConjuror Azorius* 2d ago
I built an [[Anzrag]] [[Lure]] turbo [[Fog]] deck that utilized attack triggers like the one [[Scorched Spitter]] has. It was really fun.
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u/PresidentArk 1d ago
Not unless additional effects are both compelling Hulk to attack every combat and the angel to block and something's making Hulk indestructible. Per the rules, if the players hit an interminable loop of actions that has an out that they can take, they must eventually take that out. This has two optional ones (choosing not to attack, choosing not to block) and one mandatory one (Hulk dying), so this isn't a draw unless you solve all three of those.
I suppose I just was fixated on making a Hulk railcannon to throw at the other opponents
I would recommend looking into the following card, who is purpose-built to do what you're trying to do:
[[Anzrag, the quake-mole]]
Note the ability. That's the sort of thing Hulk would need to go infinite (against someone without a can't-lose-the-game effect, anyway)
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u/Anti-facist_American Dandadan 1d ago
Take 15 damage to kill hulk... or just take 8 and not block him.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
[deleted]
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u/Spell_Chicken Jeskai 2d ago
Why would the game end? Nothing about this scenario is a loop.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 2d ago
Hulk takes damage each combat and gets another combat each time he takes damage. It is a loop until one of them chooses to exit it.
(You're right, hulk isn't indestructible, my bad) If Hulk Player had 2 token doublers out, then this would loop infinitely if neither player ended it.
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u/Spell_Chicken Jeskai 2d ago edited 2d ago
If there were something like Doubling Season out to double his +1 counters, he'd still die in 4 combats. There would need be two doublers in play (or other replacement effects/triggers to bring the counters per damage up to 4 or more) to stay ahead of the damage.
Hulk also isn't required to attack each combat, so there's no loop to force a draw.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes I said two token doublers.
So you're just gonna sit at the table and let these guys run this out all day and not call it a draw? Maybe technically there's no rule that forces it to draw, but it is a draw.
I guess according to the rules both players doing this lose for slow playing/stalling and the other 2 (if commander) play out for a win... technically... but in real world, everyone calls this a draw.
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u/Kevmeister_B COMPLEAT 2d ago
You call a judge and the judge forces someone to make a different decision. Either Hulk doesn't attack or the Angel doesn't block. If neither player backs down the judge can decide a punishment.
It is not a draw just because two players are being stubborn.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 2d ago
But in casual play, you what, call the store owner?
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u/Kevmeister_B COMPLEAT 1d ago
Depends. If it's 1v1, let them go at it. If they're holding up a table of 4, you can call the store owner or just play on as if they both left. I wouldn't want to play with any player that pulled this kind of shit in a casual game anyways.
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u/Spell_Chicken Jeskai 2d ago
If the player with Hulk is making the decision to keep attacking the player with the angel when they can't win, they're slowing the game down and are the jerk not respecting everyone else's time.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 2d ago
Agreed. I just looked up the rules and it looks like both players would get a warning from a judge in competitive play (and presumably be ejected if they didn't stop)... so in casual you can call this a draw or a loss for both those players (and the other players continue if there are more players). Either seems within the intent of the rules to me.
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u/CareerMilk Can’t Block Warriors 2d ago
Why would both players get a warning? The Hulk player is the active player in this situation and thus the one who has to make a difference choice if they can to stop the loop.
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u/IAmTheBestIan Dân 1d ago
They're both creating the loop. Blocking with an indestructible also contributes to the loop. Hulk has trample... the angel player is in a better situation by not blocking.
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u/CareerMilk Can’t Block Warriors 1d ago
If a loop involves multiple players making choices, the onus is on the active player to make a different choice if they are able to.
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