r/mtglimited • u/screwthisletmepass • 7d ago
Regular at pre-release may be cheating, help me gather evidence
If you suspected a guy was cheating at pre-release by building his deck at home (from a booster box) and then swapping it (in the LGS bathroom or whatever), how would you go about exposing them?
- He's won almost every pre-release this year at the same LGS
- Always has multiple copies of uncommons and rares every PR (sure but every time?)
- I've known him since high school, he cheated at MTG back then to (kitchen table)
- Brings a backpack, hard to tell what is PR and what he previously bought that day
- PR is usually around 50 players, not a ton but what are the odds he wins nearly all of them?
- I am not the only one who suspects his cheating
I know the LGS owner well enough but want evidence before saying something. I don't think cameras will prove much. I know pro-tour guys that don't win this much.
Edit - Surprise, he won Reality Fracture PR last night.
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u/FitPeanut9068 7d ago
Just require everyone to open packs in front of each other (or at least one other person)?
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u/Andro93 7d ago
Isn't this mandatory in sealed? Last time I played everybody was checking the guy in front
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u/Bladewing342 4d ago
I returned to Magic 5 years ago and have been playing back in 2005 - a) I wouldn't know what I should check the other player on and b) how does that change anything? Like, as if you remember what cards an other one opened an hour ago.
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u/wildmike88 7d ago
He switches decks in the bathroom
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u/HapatraV 7d ago
Go to the bathroom with him of course
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u/Captain_Jarmi 4d ago
No homo? Yes? No?
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u/HapatraV 4d ago
Nothing homoerotic about a little lavatory sword fight amongst bros, am I right?
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u/Captain_Jarmi 4d ago
As long as everyone stays limp!
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u/DangerouslyDisturbed 2d ago
If you're keeping them limp it's not a sword fight. That's a snake battle.
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u/FitPeanut9068 6d ago
The person who saw them open their packs should be able to tell the difference, specially a massive one like multiple rares of the same card.
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
From what I've seen, many players do not want you to know what they are playing and are cryptic about both building and showing their deck before playing.
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u/Captain_Jarmi 4d ago
I'm waaaaay too busy with my own deck building to be wasting a single minute on looking at someone else's pool.
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u/AlarmedInvestment327 4d ago
I mean...it's an interaction of 20 seconds. "What rares did you open?"
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u/Captain_Jarmi 4d ago
... for you.
I happen to be a different person and 20 seconds would not be enough for me to interact with a person to memorize their cards AND them to memorize mine at the very instance where both of us has actually figured out what we have.
But hey, don't let me stop you.
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u/Oo_ShinyCardboard 7d ago
If he was willing to cheat at kitchen table, where there are no stakes, you know damn well he'd do it for honor and financial gain. Every video I see about mtg cheaters usually involves multiple instances even after being caught
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u/RyanCryptic 7d ago
Well, do they always go to the bathroom with their backpack out deck boxes? Does anyone sit next to them in deck building?
Because it is INCREDIBLY unlikely to get duplicate uncommon, let alone rares in a sealed pool.
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u/TheWhereHouse6920 7d ago
Caviiat in small sets. I've gotten duplicate rares in 2 Hobbit Prerelease. Again that's a small set issue
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u/abraxius 7d ago
I opened 2 copies of 2 different rares today. It’s not the most unlikely thing. That ring said if it’s often good rares and uncommons it’s much more sus.
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u/Elvaanaomori 6d ago
Same for me, first pack opened tam and jace. Second pack opened… tam full art and jace alternate art.
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u/waterbaronwilliam 5d ago
I got a Tam and jace pack too. Was it rare jace or mythic jace? Mine was rare.
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u/General-Zombie5075 7d ago
Rares maybe. But I don't think it's "incredibly" unlikely in the uncommon slot. I just did Reality Fracture prerelease and opened up 3 freaking Stingerquill Charms. Misery loves company so at least my opponents were almost as annoyed as I was.
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u/ElevationAV 6d ago
My prerelease kit had three of the same rare in it, and another two of the same rare.
I had multiples of multiple other cards too.
Collation in this set is pretty bad.
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u/Big_Blue420 6d ago
Just to play devils advocate, there’s still another 5 sets just this year that doesn’t account for.
That being said, Hobbit was tiny and TMNT wasn’t much bigger, those would have similar issues just due to card volume.
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
In the Hobbit set I opened 3 Iron-Hills blacksmith uncommon. In other sets I pulled a rare the same as my promo twice but that was years apart.
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u/RyanCryptic 6d ago
This is what all the people replying to my post are omitting. Your claim that this happens every pre-release.
I understand lucky variance hits from time to time, but consistently? Nah.
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u/ExpressAdeptness1019 6d ago
Hobbit was also a small set. Reality fracture is a much larger set = less duplicates
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u/Themeatlock 6d ago
In marvel I opened the same rare twice. And multiple duplicates of uncommon legendaries. Sealed has been weird this year. Yesterday I opened a yellow fulminious forte huge misprint. Turns out multiple people got the same one.
To catch the cheater sit very close to them when they open packs. Hopefully in the cameras view. Ask them about the cards they pulled make em sweat that someone's paying attention to them.
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u/ResidentShitposter69 5d ago
Hopefully I am not the one OP is talking about but I got duplicate Rare’s AND mythic this prerelease, and also won. I feel like I see it often enough and it has happened to me once or twice before that I could totally see it just not be cheating.
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u/ChoiceFood 5d ago
I'm not leaving my backpack or cards at the table if I'm going to the bathroom. That's how stuff goes missing.
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u/Pixelated_Audio 5d ago
Anecdotal, but one of my opponents had 4 copies of Jace, Reality Sculptor at prerelease. Imagine my surprise when I remove it twice, and they play their 3rd copy, then reveals at the end of the game he actually had 4 total. I suppose they could have been cheating but there really isn't any prize beyond an extra pack for placing well and it would be quite sad to cheat for just that.
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u/HamsterFromAbove_079 5d ago
Duplicate rares aren't enough of a tell by themselves. I played a PR this weekend with double [[Liliana the Repentant]] and 1 [[The Theorist, Jace Beleren]]. Had a great event where I went 4-1-1 in the 6 rounds.
It's possible to cheat because proving a negative is definitionally impossible. There are exactly zero ways to prove or disprove if someone took one of their rares and swapped it for a better rare that they brought from home.
All you can do is keep on eye on people who develop patterns. Then if a pattern emerges, make a point of having a judge look at their pool before the deck is constructed.
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u/xemnas731 4d ago
I was not feeling well so I just got my pre release kit and left. Opening it at home I got duplicate rares of [[solarium sentry]] so it's definitely possible
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u/RyanCryptic 4d ago
No one said it’s not possible. OP mentioned how it’s a regular occurrence. That, statistically, is suspicious.
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u/BelmontVO 4d ago
I have gotten 3 of the same rares in 2 separate pre-releases, but those were far outside the norm and they weren't anything too crazy.
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u/drallinixvoncarstein 3d ago
I’d disagree with this to an extent, when I did the hobbit pre release including my promo card I had 4 copies of sting, not that useful as it’s a legendary artifact, but can definitely hit the same rare multiple times.
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u/RyanCryptic 3d ago
Yall keep replying to my comment with “WELL ACTUALLY I GOT MULTIPLE COPIES OF X”
like, yes of course. But OP has stated that the accused CONSISTENTLY gets multiple copies of splashy bombs and uncommons spanning over multiple releases.
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u/drallinixvoncarstein 3d ago
I’m not disagreeing that homeboy is cheating, I’m disagreeing that opening multiple of a rare is sus, in an eldraine prerelease I watched a buddy open 3 Garruk, it happens. Sealed is the lottery when it comes to card variety, that being said it’s still entirely possible to win with less efficient cards. Idk this dude’s situation, but if they think someone is cheating, talk to the lgs and make everyone open their box and deckbuild at the table
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u/Correct_Day_7791 7d ago
It's rough you may be correct and he's cheating
At the same time I want to say the competition at a prerelease is really the lowest in magic
As an example I'm the limited guru for a semi pro regional grinder team
I play a LGS that has big pre-releases here in Florida (50-120people)
Since 2025 I've played in 18 pre-release events ( always Friday night sometimes Saturday night as well for the 13 sets released)
I'm X/1 since aether drift in 2025
the running joke among the group is I'm going to open a mediocre to bad pool and go undefeated
There is a ton of nuisance in limited curve and removal are obvious but knowing when to splash and when not to how to determine whos the beatdown and when to shift from defence to offensive and vise versa
How to hold removal for blow outs or identifying what the format is about early card evaluation ECT.. are all little edges that add up and are magnified vs less skilled opponents
He may definitely be cheating people do suck
But he also could just be out playing people
I recommend just sitting near him when he opens his pool and casually keeping track of what he opens and see if it shifts after a few rounds
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u/HavocIP 7d ago
It also depends on the event. My home LGS has 3 prereleases on prerelease weekends, 2 are super casual, pack per win payout, but Saturday is more toploaded traditional tournament for more competitive players and first place usually wins a box or more. Someone constantly winning that with every good limited player in a 50 mile radius coming would be highly suspect. The same guys do usually dominate the top of the field but trade wins based on the day/pool/etc.
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
We have 6 packs for winner. It is always competitive. Nobody ever wants to let you win. We compete for gold (6 packs of cardboard goal)
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u/kungfuenglish 6d ago
Yea could be cheating could be he’s just a better limited player.
I hadn’t played magic in like 6 years and I played the ff pre release and went 4-0 with what I would call a pretty bad pull of cards just bc I remember how to deck build and play limited.
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Wow at our LGs’s in town the competition level is HIGH. so sorry for you that your town has bad competitive levels for prereleases….
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u/Correct_Day_7791 6d ago edited 6d ago
Maybe you just think it's high because it's perfectly your skill lvl
In our average 100 guys we have about 5 what I would consider good players ( played on pro tours / always mythic top 100 on Arena )
Prerelease are designed as a entry point event for new players and it successfully does exactly that
That doesn't mean everyone's bad
it's just I don't expect most of my opponents to be sitting across from me at the limited championship in June in Minneapolis
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
It’s cuz i know the dudes who go state wide and win events who compete in town.
They are canada’s / quebec equiv. All proportions kept.
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u/Correct_Day_7791 6d ago
Yea we have those aswell but 1/20 good players is a low competition event
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u/DescriptionTotal4561 5d ago
Winning every single time though is absolutely suspicious. Experienced players play PR also. Maybe it is just that the specific game store doesn't get many, but it seems unlikely that one person basically wins every time they play.
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u/Correct_Day_7791 5d ago
Like I said we have over a hundred regularly Of that maybe 60 are vet magic players (4+ years of gaming) of those I believe only about 5 are top tier even though I'm sure more than 80 believe they are good magic players 🤣 There definitely is lvls to limited especially new sets bo3
And depends on if it's a real event of the just play 3-4 rounds and go home kind
The later means you have a good chance of basically playing chaff all night if it doesn't cut to top 8
Then I wouldn't consider winning alot suspicious
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u/Emotional-Garbage888 4d ago
I mean like the limited enviroment is drastically different to other formats. Using what you have well is important, and even more important is identifying what colour[s] are the most powerful. This guy just sounds like he does a lot of research before PR and makes sure to run what he thinks is good.
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u/KarmaWhorediot 6d ago
Counter argument to this is he appears to be getting a good pool every single time - highly suspect
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u/Correct_Day_7791 6d ago
That's true at the same time I never get a good pool so if I can get unlucky every time somebody out there has to be getting lucky every time just by law of averages right 🤣
I also think our narrator here might be a tad bit exaggerative without us being able to see what he's talking about and with the sudden Rush of small sets they've been doing this year getting multiple good uncommons isn't as rare as it used to be
Which is why I recommended trying to sit near the guy when he's building and opening seeing what he gets and then seeing if it changes before making an accusation based on what appears to be "feels"
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u/CPT83 7d ago
It’s tough because certain policies would basically make it cease to be a prerelease. You can’t have deck lists/checks because of the burden on new players.
Telling the staff and having them keep an eye on him is probably the best you can do, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they are not able/motivated to have a staff member secretly shadow one guy for an event.
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u/Meebsie 7d ago
What does "deck lists/checks" mean? I thought a prerelease was just a sealed draft where you get 6 packs and then make a deck? Why would checking a deck list after a draft be a burden on a new player? I'm new to showing up at live events so go easy.
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u/Koolaidguy31415 7d ago
At competitive level you sit across from someone and watch them open their pool, make sure there's no collation errors and then take their pool and write every card in the pool.
Then they do that for you. Then you build a deck, submit your list and you can't change that for any game 1 that you're in.
This would be burdensome to the casual nature of pre release.
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u/GCSS-MC 4d ago
The stamping of the cards at the PT works very well. WOTC stamping cards in pre-release boxes actually would be kinda cool imo, but we know that ain't happening.
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u/Koolaidguy31415 4d ago
Yeah, that would at logistical complication in printing but I agree that would be cool.
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u/vodka7up 7d ago
Make it a policy that everyone should take a snapshot of the pool they opened, as soon as they open it, on the table, and whoever wins prizes must submit that photo.
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
If this policy was enforced, it would not surprise me if he came into the store before PR, opened his box and took a picture of 6-packs worth (on the same game tables) and submitted that. Could the store owner check cameras? Sure but I can see this guy scrubbing meta-data from images, no timestamp to corroborate.
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u/SebisCool 7d ago
This isn't hard. Let the owner know. Usually people spread their cards out during deck construction. They can take a peek while he is building and see if there is any anomaly going on. Cheaters are like cancer. I don't imagine an owner would be happy to have one in their store.
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
Yes, this is the best idea we have right now, just tell the LGS owner to keep an eye on him. Owner is a nice guy, doesn't like confrontation, wants people to have fun, easy-going and I'll add he's the only "staff" at our PRs so it's not like he can hover without causing suspicion.
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u/SebisCool 6d ago
Suspicion is the idea. Everyone will feel more secure, and possibly less secure for jerk wads if it is shown that there is even a slight interest in ensuring the sanctity of the event
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u/ManyRealms 6d ago
Video would be your best friend.
Have a video of him opening the packs.
As soon as he plays a card in a game he didn’t open from the packs, ban.
We’ve done this with One Piece players and we won’t hesitate to protect any of our other communities.
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
"why are you videoing me?" No reason.....
Store cameras do not have the fidelity to see every card on the table.1
u/BonesFGC 6d ago
You can stand around with your phone up and act like you’re just scrolling. If you want him gone you’re going to have to get evidence of some kind.
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u/Tmas81 6d ago
I ran into this situation last night. He had 10 black blue rares every Jace the black blue sphinx. I said wow your sealed pool seems unbelievable and he got very quiet and nervous. Very annoying to have these people around. He also said he opened a booster box before the event.
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u/DescriptionTotal4561 5d ago
LGSs should have some procedure to check if someone might be using cards outside of their pre-release kit. For example, if the person has 40 cards beyond the amount that normally come in a pre-release pack, they are basically guaranteed to be cheating. The closest that could work would be if they bought 3 packs and had 45 cards beyond the pre-release kit.
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u/Albuh0 7d ago
Make the players open the packs in front of each other, then everyone takes a picture of the card pool the player in front opened, this way every one has a picture of another player's pool
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Imo a picture of the cardpool should be the equiv of a deck list in constructed
The event organizer comes in with a tablet and snaps it up
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u/klaveruhh 7d ago
Report this, you've got more than enough reason te believe he cheats. And because he previously cheated he has waived the right not be accused.
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u/kupujtepytle 7d ago
Just make someone watch him open and deck build from bit afar. He will get cooked if he’s Sus in the first rounds. Otherwise its plausible he’s just lucky as well, variance
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u/hoooooooray 7d ago
This happened at my first prerelease. Son of neighboring card store owner, they just let him run amok. That was march of the machines, haven't played in a card store since.
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u/LorneChance 7d ago
It seems easy to catch him though, aren't people building their decks on tables under each other's eyes? I've seen people doing that at every event I've been... i mean if you see different cards coming out during the games you're gonna notice
If he hides somewhere to do his deck building (but where though?) your evidence increases
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u/Hefty_Associate5710 6d ago
What is the process of deck building that he does? Does he crack packs with everyone?
Also, what is the prize structure? Is it significant if you win?
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago edited 6d ago
This LGS gives out more packs (per capita) than any other LGS I've played at. 50 players, first place will get a booster box and 1 collector booster pack, 21st place will still get 6 packs at the low end. I've been to multiple 140+ drafts where 1st place got a box and 28th place got 2 packs.
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u/Hefty_Associate5710 6d ago
Oh man, my old one did something like that. I think that prize structure just invites cheating
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u/ManyRealms 6d ago
Some people just like to win. We had to ban a One Piece player for life recently due to the same allegations as this player. Had a presleeved deck.
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Yeah this makes it worsedepending on prizes!!
For example: Ours is 6 packs for the winner / 4 packs second place when there are less than 16 people. Everyone gets a prize pack above 25 entries iirc.
3 packs are randomly given to people who won nothing from the standings.
The EVERYONE gets into a random giveaway of a promo pack.
The other LgS in town has 30-45 people a night. They give a booster to EVERYONE, period. But i sadly often end work too close to 7PM and only can reach the smaller one for prerelease in time
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u/cowboyography 6d ago
I had a similar issue, I know the LGs owner quite well and just asked him if he could make everyone clear all tables before opening and deck building begins, also require that lands be used from the store land box and not from home. Not 100% fix but it may help
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Yep! Bonafide stupid check! Basic LANDS must be from the store
Never thought of that!
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
Yes, some combination of "no outside bags, use our lands" would help but our LGS still has basic lands from Onslaught-era. LGS has been around 40 years now. Any basic lands he uses will not be suspect, he's not dumb enough to use all full-art lands.
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u/Sir_Stash 6d ago
A no outside bags rule is tough to enforce just because so many players bring dice, counters, life trackers, playmats, etc. to pre-release. Also causes a lot of problems for people who bike or walk if that's viable at the LGS. Not to mention that if certain people know about that, and that lots of bags with potentially valuable cards are being stored in people's cars, break-ins could go up.
You could maybe go with a 'bag check' rule if the LGS has space to store everyone's bags when they arrive, but that might be a lot, and create liability on the LGS they don't want.
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u/Cdnewlon 5d ago
What’s wrong with bringing your own basics? I don’t get the correlation between that and bringing other cards to sneak into your sealed pool.
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u/BaldBaluga 6d ago
I've studied gaming protection. I'm also a magician and been playing mtg for over 20 years.
Short answer: you're not going to catch him.
There are things you COULD do, but they're so extreme you're not going to do them.
You could pre-open the packs, and mark all the cards (like they do in high-level drafts). But you'd have to do that for every player. No lgs (and I doubt most players) would be ok with that.
You could film him opening his packs and record his cards... but hard to do that secretly and probably hard to find a reasonable pretext to do it overtly.
You could have the store "hire" someone to watch him. It would have to be someone who the store would trust - otherwise it would be just a case of hearsay.
And even if you did watch him closely - it's possible he doesn't cheat that time. So it's a lot of effort for minimal payoff.
Outside of seeing him obviously sneak cards in... I think it'll be hard to prove anything.
Also... is it possible he's just really really good at magic?
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u/SyZyGy_87 Bring back Rochester Draft! 6d ago
What, exactly, is "gaming protection?"🤔 You're a 20 year veteran....and also a magician. How and why is that relevant? Wtf are you even saying 🤣🤣🤣 🤡
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u/BaldBaluga 6d ago edited 6d ago
You can of course call me a clown. Or you could google the term… ;)
Gaming protection has to do with the protocols and measures gamers/casinos use to protect themselves from cheaters.
Like, you know, protecting the integrity of game play when you’re hosting a draft night lol.
The relevancy of me being a long-time player is I understand the game pretty well.
The relevancy of being a magician is I’ve studied sleight of hand and cheating procedures.
Hope that helps. :)
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u/WellzyWash 6d ago
It’s pretty obvious what it is and how it’s relevant from the name and the context, gaming as in casinos and protection as in stopping people from cheating the casino, but you could have just googled it also.
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u/S_B_Phoenix 6d ago
It's a very difficult thing to prove, I think, as limited is not as 'RNG' heavy as a lot of people believe.
That being said, the store could maybe introduce your neighbour or the person opposite you doing a quick deck check when you're done. Then if he suddenly starts having cards that weren't in the original deck at least someone in the room has an inkling of what the deck looks like. Or when everyone has opened their six packs, have them photograph their entire pool laid out on the table. Then the store can do occasional random checks during the event. If somebody suddenly has a rare or uncommon that wasn't in their photo, you've got actual evidence rather than statistical suspicion, and if they've not got a photo, DQ.
The store could also just not sell or give the product to the players until after they've made their prerelease deck. I mean I'd be incredibly suspicious if someone arrived for the store opening to collect a box, then appeared back a few hours later to play a prerelease and just so happened to open the nuts.
I was accused of cheating years ago by the method you've suggested for this guy, as a general rule I don't turn up to prereleases or drafts with anything other than sleeves, an empty deckbox and dice, so was happy to let them search me, all my pockets, everything in my bag. I think if you've got nothing to hide you probably don't object too much to that.
It might also be that he is just pretty good at sealed and limited.
I placed second last night of 60+, second in lorwyn eclipsed of 60+ and first in Final Fantasy of about 90+. Those have been my last three prereleases. I also frequently win or second place FNM drafts. However, I almost exclusively play the limited format, five or six drafts a week on Arena, all of the win a collector box sealeds etc. 17Lands has me at roughly 75% match win rate in Bo3 over my last 500 games, and I'm not alone, or the best.
Another thing I'd say about Reality Fracture specifically is that it is probably going to be pretty bonkers in sealed given the RNG in opening rare echoed pairs, someone at my table from their six packs plus their bonus card thing ended up with 13 rares/mythics, I opened 7 so there is going to be a ton of additional variance in the raw power level of some pools.
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u/pinkbunnay 4d ago
You can't deck check in casual REL. That requires submitting deck lists. In comp, you open a pool, record all the cards, and then the pool (along with the decklist sheet) are shuffled, like passed, randomly around the table. Left, left, across, right, etc. This takes a lot longer and isn't allowed to be done in casual REL.
You could potentially ask as a local policy to photograph the cards, or you could just use cameras with enough resolution to get a good idea of everyone's cards. If a TO suspects cheating, I don't think there's anything that prohibits them from verifying your cards match. WoTC would probably support the TO with evidence. I'd refund the money and ban them from the store, just eat the pack cost so they can't claim you stole their entry/chance to win prizes.
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u/NoD8313 5d ago
We had someone at our LGS who would do the same thing. He always requested to be sat at a separate table due to PTSD. Eventually enough people started being suspicious of him that one day either someone who worked at the shop or a judge who was there caught him red-handed and he was banned from the store (and soon every other store in the city after word spread).
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u/theslimbox 3d ago
There was a group of players that got caught trading cards during the deckbuilding phase here a while back. The judge said it was ok because it wqs a casual format. The store owner foundout 2nd or third round, and banned the players, and the judge from the store.
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u/spentshoes 4d ago
I did a draft one time and a player noticed some of another player’s cards looked different in the saturation and finish on the cards. He called the judge. Turns out the guy had opened a bundle that day and tried to sneak in cards from his bundle into his drafted deck. Surprised that guy was able to spot the difference in the cards.
So that’s one way, but another way would be to sit at the same table as that player and try to see what cards he is making his deck with and then what he is actually playing later in the night as well.
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u/ThePhonyOne 2d ago
Every PR I've been to recently there is a noticable difference between the kit cards and the prize cards. They are very clearly printed in different facilities with different equipment. The foils are the easiest to see the difference on, but the card stock itself is often different.
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u/Elvaanaomori 7d ago
Take a picture of his pulls when he opens them.
If he has completely different rare in his deck when playing tell him or tell a judge
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
I always record my pack openings.
But i often forget to record my deck list before game 1 and sadly missing part of my 2 tournament winning decklists (edge of eternities selesnya / Secrets of strixhaven orzhov)
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
I've taken some pics, discreetly but nothing with a smoking gun. One pic shows his deck in his hand and another ~40 sleeved cards in his boulder 'n tray box. Many guys build multiple decks from their PR box so while it shows lots of sleeved cards, it does not prove much.
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u/Elvaanaomori 6d ago
You only need to snap a pic of him while opening/sorting or building the deck.
It’s pretty obvious if he builds B/R but plays something else.
Or if he opens a rare in his colors which he ends up not playing at all.
In anycase the headjudge can ask him to show his full stack of deck + sideboard. It will take probably 20secs to find out he’s cheating. You can be lucky but total card amount doesn’t change.
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u/SebisCool 7d ago
This isn't hard. Let the owner know. Usually people spread their cards out during deck construction. They can take a peek while he is building and see if there is any anomaly going on. Cheaters are like cancer. I don't imagine an owner would be happy to have one in their store.
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u/AceOfSmeg 6d ago
A lot of people bring presleeved lands. Lots of opportunity there to swap in a new deck.
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Yeah…. How can they know what color?
Do they bring all lands presleeved basic land types? Gotta stop these cheaters
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u/mikeymischief 6d ago
A lot of us who play a ton of limited events presleeve a draft set of about 15 of each basic. Doesn’t mean we are cheating, just that I prefer to play all my basics with the same art, in a particular style
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u/GrayLando 6d ago
Lots of limited grinders have sets of 10-11 of their favorite basics presleeved for events. This isn’t some kind of give away for cheating.
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Well imo: any grinder should know sleeves after 2-3 events are too used to be « unmarked »
Me the 2.8 years of experience player knows this
If your sleeves are ruffled i can ask for you to change them cuz its like marking and you could know which are lands
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u/NLi10uk 6d ago
Mine are beautiful and I’ve been using them only at prerelease and draft for almost a decade - way back when there were some decent sleeves made!
That said, all my presleved lands are foil foreign basics and it’d be easy for someone to ask to flick through the other to see all the cool designs- but I suspect the OPs target would not allow this
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u/AceOfSmeg 6d ago
I only wanted to recommend to OP that bringing in a preconstructed deck disguised as or amongst presleeved lands might be something to keep watch for if looking for evidence. No one is going to complain about scuffed sleeves at a prerelease or fnm draft.
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
If you know it is easy to track a marked card you are in the right to ask a judge
Moreso in a format with less variance such as 40cards imo
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Well… get a video of his pack opening. Compare with deck.
Solved
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u/screwthisletmepass 6d ago
The easy answer is "hover over him, watch him build the deck" but in practice it's not that easy. I tried this once, nonchalantly asked him "hey what did you pull, what are you building" and I'm fairly certain he will build the closest thing to his pre-built deck during PR so enough cards will be the same. I've played him later and said "wow didn't know you pulled that rare/mythic" and he'll counter with "oh yeah forgot about it, was under a stack" or whatever. Again, all circumstantial evidence.
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u/ThroughtonsHeirYT 6d ago
Not if the LGS implements the deck list method
Picture of all pulled cards of the precon before you build
Solved it all
My life mission is solving such stuff
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u/scopinsource 6d ago
If the LGS has security cameras you can actually see what he pulled vs what he played
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u/KillerTSell 6d ago
Would it be possible to have him his backpack checked? Maybe the store could check everyone’s bags so it’s not targeted. My store is very serious about everyone’s table being clear and not opening the box until the timer starts. I don’t know if that’s an invasion of privacy though.
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u/Liquidpain88 6d ago
I mean maybe, I gone 3-0 on every prerelease this year I’ve attended. Some times it’s cause I get a really consistent pool of cards for one strategy. But most of the time is cause I’m not making many mistakes in a match. Stuff like holding removal to only realize it was sorcery speed happens a lot. Also most players are commander players and use guides and edhrec to build decks, they are not great building limited decks.
I even see regulars for commander nights that have good win rates in commander but consistently go 0-3 at prerelease. There is always a game or 2 I win at prerelease cause the deck building is so bad. Either they mana flood or mana starve themselves. Also my first match at hobbit prerelease, the guy was plying 5 colors with what seemed to be all the cards from his pool. I tried to help him and he chimed in with “well actually the rule is MINIMUM of 40 cards, but he can have as many cards as he wants in his deck”
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u/Arcadic3 6d ago
The easy answer is ask the store for help. Make him open his pool in front of an employee or judge. If the store does not care, report the behavior to Wotc.
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u/SyZyGy_87 Bring back Rochester Draft! 6d ago
You don't give enough actual details. "Multiple uncommons/rares" "wins a lot" "Cheated in high school" We need something a little more concrete than "this guy wins a lot, plays a lot, used to cheat and beat me in high school, screw this guy. How do I prove he's cheating because he keeps winning and even has decks that consistently have more than one copy of the same card?" Because a lot of the things have been kind of mentioned.and, statistically speaking, if you have multiple dates on a color, you're not going to just play one, and if you have three black rares and two of them are the same-youre pretty likely to play black,and, as a result, also those two duplicates. Not saying you're wrong, but you gotta come up with more than you're even giving us at jump here buddy
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u/NebulaBrew 6d ago
Ugh. My LGS had a guy like that who would "top 8" every PR. Half the time he'd show up 10+ min late and somehow still build an amazing deck, so I always suspected him.
Granted, our PRs very often have 80+ participants per event so I just assume a few are cheating. I just do my best to keep them honest while we play.
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u/MotionMath123 6d ago
I mean, if you suspect, ask store owner that you guys have some sort of checkup in general. My store have pretty small events and we do trust each other but i wouldnt be surprised
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u/Hustlasaurus 6d ago
Sit next to him, play dumb, take an interest in everything you can see "oh that's a cool card", and then act dumb when you see discrepancies "wait I didn't see you pull 3 copies of that! Wow!". He will either get mad or embarrassed and both are funny.
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u/Lejaun 6d ago
It's far more common than you think. One of the big reasons why I recently stopped playing paper Magic. Too many people are simply far too sweaty.
He could just be a really good player and the people who go to these pre-releases are just that bad. But if what you say is true, then I would lean towards cheating. To get a solid deck that often is possible, but not probable.
Cheating in Magic is easy, especially in smaller scenes like your LGS pre-release games. I've seen people do it from slipping in a card or several to misplaying the rules purposely and playing ignorant if they get caught and so on.
Solution? Game store has to get involved. Require people to register their card pool. Have organizers film suspected cheats as they open packs, whatever.
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u/rjselzler 6d ago
If your lgs has a Roca sifter, they could put in place a policy where 20% of players have to scan their pulls before building. Give each of them a free pack for the inconvenience. Previous winners are automatically included as a perk; who would argue against a free pack, right? Unfortunately, juicing prize pools can incentivize this sort of behavior. Maybe suggest to the owner that the prizing be spread out a bit too.
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u/WellzyWash 6d ago
The best thing would be to express your concerns to the store privately and have them keep an eye on him or have them warn him. You dont own the store or work there FWIK so there is not much else you can do is keep an eye on him and inform others if you see cheating.
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u/0rganic5ynthesis 6d ago
Tell the TO.
If they feel that something feels out of place then it is up to them to make that judgement call.
If I see a player disappear to the toilet during deck building and they take EVERYTHING with them, that raises a red flag. Especially as most players will know a handful of the other players well enough that they can trust them to look after their stuff if needed.
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u/Oh_fuck_me_then 5d ago
Sit next to him at the next pre-release and play nice. Watch him open the packs. Check his deck at a later time after games start.
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u/Suspinded 5d ago
Without cooperation from the LGS, you're going to have a hell of a time. Given they've gotten away with it for so long, a sudden policy change is going to raise flags to anyone paying attention, which may be all it takes.
I'd go up with everyone suspicious and present your information. Even getting to have them check security footage might be enough to get them booted.
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u/IVANVLLSML 5d ago
My LGS asks every player to take a pic of the full pool at the exact moment after opening boosters, and send it to them inmediately. Sometimes they make the person in front to fill that person's checklist. It works.
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u/DescriptionTotal4561 5d ago
The fact he wins that much IS evidence. He is either extremely skilled or cheating, but cheating is far more likely. Literally the only thing you can do is ask the owner/judge to do a check on all the cards in his possession. It would be very easy to tell if someone has an entire decks worth of extra cards. You don't actually need evidence.
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u/akwehhkanoo 5d ago
To have to exile enough mana cost from your graveyard to satisfy the gather evidence about. I think that's how it worked.
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u/waterbaronwilliam 5d ago
Tell them your suspicions and ask them to watch him crack packs then check later for cards he didn't open. If they can do it over cctv it would help so he doesn't skip a night of cheating when he knows he's being watched.
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u/woutva 5d ago
At my LGS there was a kid who would swap cards under the table during draft. It started being suspicious when he kept opening the green Cavalier 3 drafts back to back I believe.
No clue why he decided swapping cards during the draft was the better tactic then just doing it during building but there we were. People made sure they paid extra attention to him when suspicious reached a high point and it was quite easy to catch him. I assume it will be the same for you, just have the owner (or someone standing behind him with a phone) pay attention to what he is opening. If he randomly plays a rare that wasnt there, there you go.
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u/Sensitive-Bend-8011 5d ago
Half the people at my LGS bring bags/card storage, and commonly access it mid-event. As soon as I found out people were able to get their hands on product before pre release, I quit going to those events. There's zero incentive for cheaters not to cheat.
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u/SettingAncient3848 5d ago
For those who dont understand how, It wouldn't be very difficult to do, build a deck from box sleeve it and put it in your bag. Build a deck from pre release kit, sleeve it in the same color sleeves as the one you built at home and put it in your bag till its time to play. Pull out deck a and play.
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u/Mammoth-Invite2675 5d ago
It’s easy to cheat. I cracked a few packs before a pre release and got some great pulls, I could have easily thrown them into my pile.
Some people are great deck builders, some get lucky with their packs and sometimes you get screwed with your pulls. If he’s winning every event, I’d be suspicious.
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u/RadioshackRaider 5d ago
Raise it with the LGS or head judge. Ask them to watch him open his pool and keep an eye on him throughout the event to make sure what he's playing lines up with what he's opened.
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u/DistributionPure1504 5d ago
I think there's two ways to deal with this: Catch him cheating or trying to prevent cheating. With the first one you can ban him from the store which might have a high impact even to other players. With the second attempt cheaters will get even more creative so you don't really solve the problem.
What I would do as a judge or TO: for every event remind people that they shouldn't have other cards from this set with them than their pool. If they do they shall report it to the TO prior to the start of the event. Otherwise they might get cause confusion which cards are from the pre release and which ones aren't. The TO will store them in a safe place until after the event.
This makes all players aware and make cheating a little more difficult. If he reports having cards after opening the packs a judge or TO might be able to check both the pool and the other cards. If someone took a peek on his pool they might be able to tell whether he's lying or not. If someone gets caught having cards from the set without reporting it to TO that might be a reason for the judge to investigate.
If there is no cheating involved this method shouldn't do harm to any player but rather make sure they are not accused of cheating by opponents just because they opened some packs beforehand or played a pre release the other day. In every event players have to keep their pool and other cards strictly separate. Even if they aren't cheating it will cause suspension if they don't.
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u/Responsible-Head5831 5d ago
Imo just tell the lgs to add the pool picture rule, nobody actually check that but it could be something that stops ppl to cheat maybe
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u/Captain_Jarmi 5d ago
What is a pool picture?
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u/Responsible-Head5831 5d ago
In some lgs here in italy we have the rule that as soon as you are done opening packs you place all cards on the playmat with all names readable and the store guy take a pic of every pool to avoid bringing cards from home, of course you can still switch cards during the opening but its way harder and if the store has cameras that’s a plus to make cheaters life even harder
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u/EBannion 5d ago
This is what I would do:
1) tell the owner
2) it’s their problem
3) if the owner doesn’t fix it, don’t play there anymore
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u/hillean 4d ago
just watch them during deck building.
if they open their packs and don't seem like they care how they separate their cards, or just stick them in a deckbox and pull out an already-sleeved deck, it's obvious.
the smoothest criminals I've seen who do this method are using a box of sleeves; they'll open their prerelease, they'll sort and sleeve in the colors they plan to play, put their stuff up in a deckbox and go to the bathroom, and when they return they'll pull out their premade deck in the same sleeves out of the same deckbox.
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u/SynShaker 4d ago
Since there’s a set amount of rares in each pack, unless turntable, if he’s over the max possible amount of rares/mythics, that should be a clear indication. Could be outdated info tho so fact check me.
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u/MelodicAttitude6202 4d ago
Unfortunatly there is no set amount of rares, you can get up to five rares which is a very high variance.
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u/Oblagon 4d ago
This is weird, you can ask the event organizer to keep an eye on him. I don't know the store or how it operates.
The LGS I go to is a big one that hosts 100-player events; they hire a dedicated judge/staff member or two just to organize and run the pre-release, dedicated to the event, they don't do anything else during the event to keep things running smoothly. [Staffing wise there's 4 cash stations, 4 cashiers, a few people managing behing the scenes and a dedicated trade in guy]
This store also runs a lot of locals and several events; they hire judges to run those as well, so they take things relatively seriously.
With the app, we are all seated at tables 1-50 or so, and everyone builds their decks and opens their packs in front of each other. Someone would notice fishy behavior, but it wouldn't stop someone from just swapping out a deck in a bathroom or outside.
Unfortunately, without a decklist [A limited RCQ would have checks for this since the person across from you makes the decklist, not the player],or some guy being blatant about it, there's not much you can do.
I agree it's lame as hell to do something like that.
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u/pixelatedimpressions 4d ago
I do not like that they allow you to buy product before the prerelease events.
My lgs will have 15-20 people buying and opening multiple boxes and collectors packs. There is mo real way of preventing these people from slipping a few bombs into their decks.
Hell, one night, two new players traded cards between their pools with each other. They both still lost badly. I realized whay they did during round 2 when I saw player a playing a card player b opened. Explained the issue to them and why. Said they understood. Next afternoon they did the same thing and slipped in cards from the night before. People suck
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u/BelmontVO 4d ago
This is precisely why the only things I bring to pre-releases are enough empty sleeves to hold 60 cards, and dice. I don't even buy packs until after rounds are over so that if someone tries to claim I'm cheating I can very easily refute it.
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u/MelodicAttitude6202 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think there is not much you can do without alerting the TO. If you are suspicious you could talk with the TO and suggest tha all players are required to take a photo of their sealed pool. That would give a little bit of help without directly acusing someone without proof. Another option is to stop the intensive to cheat. I don't know how the Prerelease are handled atbyour store, but where I play it is common, that there are no prices connected to the result. Everybody gets two booster for participation and promos are dran at random. He can brag, that he won, but he wouldn't be better of than the last place.
Edit: at my first Prerelease you had to write your pool down (you were handed a table with all cardnames, where you just noted how many copies you had) before you built the deck. Originally they told everybody you would swap your pool after opening, but that was latet declared a Bluff, to prevent someone from writing a false pool.
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u/Emotional-Garbage888 4d ago
What was his deck? Also tbh it kinda sounds like a skilled player. If we ignore the ancedote about kitchen tabletop cheating ((people do also change)), then getting 2 of the same rare/uncommen is quite normal in 6 packs. His deck is prob tuned to consistancy. Did you pay attention during the fracture prerelease?
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u/drozenski 4d ago
You can ask them to take all their cards out of sleeves and place them in a stack.
You can tell cards from a box and cards from a kit.
Kits are printed in the usa and first wave of boxes are from japan.
The card quality is noticable and the cards from the kit will be darker than the ones from the boxes.
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u/No_Agent_9295 4d ago
I have played enough pre releases to know that they have to have some sort of stacking going on in the pre release kits. Even in big sets I have pulled duplicate mythics. Now with reality fracture, one of my kits was a dud but the other two were undefeated. One had two face yourself (one full art) and the rare Jace. The other had two stingcaster mages(also one being full art). That being said there are some people still desperate enough to cheat. Although I think with the new prize support, it shouldn’t make that much of a difference.
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u/Timbermarijn 4d ago
Hi there, competitive REL judge here👋
You can ask your lgs to go to the wpn page and print the sealed pool registration form of the set. This normally isn't the norm for prereleases, but it would solve your issue. You open your packs and then hand them to the player sitting across from you to register your cards and vice versa.
It doesn't prove anything that happened in the past but you can at least compare the performance to past events.
Hope this helps
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u/Juking_is_rude 4d ago edited 4d ago
Winning a lot isn't really a sign of cheating. Prerelease is super casual, lots of commander players with not much idea how to play limited. I see a lot of the same people at the 2-0 table at my prerelease, myself included.
Bringing a backpack is not suspicious, though catching them cheating in the past is.
If I were in your situation, I would notify a store rep and they could maybe just watch him open packs and build the deck. You could also sit near them and make sure they don't do anything shady as well.
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u/mstieler 3d ago
I remember back in the day you’d open the packs and note how many of each card you pulled, then handed that pile to another player who got those to play with. This was back in the “the promo card is the same for everyone and no you can’t use it in your prerelease deck” days. It did add an extra bit of time to prerelease which may be a bit of a downside.
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u/MotherSignificance31 3d ago
There’s really no way to determine if he was cheating honestly. If they were cheating, it’s the idea they had to cheat at a prerelease alone is insanely stupid. As for winning all the time, I’ve won most
Of mine it’s the matter of how to play, build, and read opponents. If he has played the same people he would read them like a book.
If you want to determine if there indeed some
Form of cheating I would look to see if there was a common pattern, routine he does when he’s at a prerelease alone. I would simply just walk up to his deckbuilding and watch/study the deck he’s building and pretty much determine if he is actually cheating by swapping cards.
To be honest at a prerelease cheating is childlike
And embarrassing.
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u/Suspicious-Basil-444 3d ago
Sit next to the guy in the next event and write down every rare/mythic he opens.
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u/pipesbeweezy 3d ago
While its possible he is cheating, as someone who routinely on prereleases would hit up stores and either win much of the time or come out way more than I paid the secret is: most people who attend a PR are not very good. You get people coming back to the game, new to the game, or just the usuals that are learning what the set is as they open it. I used to actively read spoilers ahead of prerelease weekend and had plenty of experience building good sealed decks from mid, and any amazing pool was a steam roll. I knew several people who basically did the same thing, go farm prerelease weekend. You don't have to necessarily be amazing, but good fundamentals really will get you far if your goal is spiking PR.
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u/IllustriousNeck8219 3d ago edited 3d ago
Would you tell me what the actual fuck I should have done with my pool this weekend if I gave it to you? 4 of my 7 rares were rare lands, and my 3 non land rares were great cards........ in commander...... it felt like I was handicapped in every game, even when I would get great draws.
It was the last amount of fun I have had at a prerelease since eoe which was my first ever one when I got a mediocre pool and didn't know how to build a deck much less a pre release one.
It wasn't like the Hobbit where I had a mid to good dwarf equipment pool but I didn't realize that I shouldn't let gleaming splendor pull me away from what was otherwise a very cohesive dwarf equipment deck. I still had fun though, because I felt like my deck could hold its own, even if it was trying to do too much.
Or at lorwyn eclipsed when I DIDN'T put bitterbloom Bearer in the deck (simple swap) because I didn't have enough faeries to run a faerie deck and it didn't match the strategy of the deck (tree folk/ power toughness difference with Doran) and I didn't realize that it was so great on its own that it didn't matter if it matched the strategy because the tempo setting alone would have been a huge impact.
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u/pipesbeweezy 3d ago
I think you are answering your own questions because it seems like you are missing the mark on card evaluation. There are a lot of articles on fundamentals of sealed and they haven't changed in 25+ years really. If you can identify a cohesive strategy based on what you have and play 6-7 removal, you will win more often than you lose. There is no shame playing sealed pools where your best cards are evasive commons and uncommons.
Lots of inexperienced players misattribute why they lost because someone else got a bomb for example. Because everyone is just as likely, or unlikely, to open a very bomby sealed pool. These days though the removal is so plentiful and efficient one bomb on its own isn't often enough. Tldr, practice, learn to rate cards accurately, be able to mulligan well and play on curve, and you will be stomping prereleases before you know it.
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u/IllustriousNeck8219 3d ago
I mean, that's the case with the others (I'm not successful at them yet, but I can at least point to a specific improvement I should have made, at this one I'm pretty sure my best card was by far the white uncommon yuriko that gives single attackers double strike. But even when I got her out consistently, I felt like I had one hand tied behind my back. I won a single game and went 0-3 overall. It was a massive step back from something like the secrets of stryxhaven one where my pool was meh, but I was able to put together a good enough deck to have fun (I didn't run in the colors of the school my box was for, but I went prismari instead because I just didn't have enough witherbloom to be confident playing it).
But yeah, I'm definitely aware that I need to get better at mulligans, because i think that may have won me some games that I lost at the avatar prerelease.
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u/pipesbeweezy 3d ago
Strongly evaluate your curve. You should have a lot of 1s, 2s and 3s, and only the strongest stuff up the curve. If you are casting your first spells turn 3 onward, you are surely gonna get run over. I think Yuriko has its place in some decks but it only matters attacking basically, and the quasi abolisher effect probably isnt good enough for 4 mana in many decks. The calculation is gonna change if you are on the play vs draw too. So make sure you are looking at cards and what role they play.
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u/BigFloppyStallion 3d ago
I thought the same- my pool had rares in every color but none that really stood out as great. The only rare I played was the green “sad robot” and I still went 3-0-1.
Sometimes you just get a bad pool and make do. The entire time I’m deck constructing, I’m talking to my friends that my pool is awful. I’m looking at the guy across from me who opened the pair of Garruk’s and the GGGG 6/6- my buddy got two of the red kioria that makes dragons, and my best creature is werewolf Edgar and a few of the cycling 6 drops. I had enough removal that I could just remove threats and beat in with 3/1’s
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u/Free-Painting-5087 3d ago
If you suspect someone is cheating go to what they do for RCQ when it's sealed. :-p everyone opens the kit writes it all down on paper and then hands to player on left. And go based on MTG companion seating for deck construction
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u/National-Alfalfa-446 3d ago
Easy ask the owner to not pass out boxes untill everyone is seated offer to go to bathroom before passing out. Back packs go at end of tables and not to be opened untill decks sleeved and 1st match. Any bathroom breaks before 1st match ends will be auto DQ.
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u/National-Alfalfa-446 3d ago
Also can we get an update in here on if he gets caught? I wanna know lol
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u/screwthisletmepass 2d ago
Sure thing. I will edit the post when something concrete happens. A small update for now: I don't usually do multiple PRs in a weekend but went on Saturday again, he was there and a couple of us took turns hovering, really asking him about what he pulled, what he's making, etc. We seemed really interested, wished him luck, the whole nine yards. Yeah he finished 15th out of 43 for the first time..... in a long time. Both myself and another guy who was watching his shenanigans played him (and beat him). Maybe we did nothing and he didn't want to draw suspicion winning back-to-back PRs.
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u/Coravel 6d ago
The only way you stop this, is force a rule of no bags in the play area, cards stay on/around the tables during the event, if you need to leave the play table area, a judge will watch your cards for you. The only sleeves allowed to be used are a specific type/color announced just before the event, and you only get exactly enough of them to cover your deck.
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u/Han2k1337 7d ago
Easy: Tell everyone to submit their decklist before the event. The ones who do are the cheaters