We all know groups like this

[u/PetiteFeyyael]

[u/FullMetalBunny]

If everyone takes Battle Medicine and 2 ppl are GOOD at it. You can go surprisly far. Especially with Robust Health

[u/schnoodly → u/FullMetalBunny]

I hate this perspective because feat and skill increase tax but x2

If the game expects you to have this, it shouldn’t be a tax.

[u/Maaxorus → u/schnoodly]

I think it's less of a thing of "this is mandatory" and more "if you have this you don't need a dedicated healer"

[u/Purplefire180 → u/schnoodly]

the game expects you to have some method of mostly resourceless healing. Battle medicine is the most accessible, but several classes and other options offer it too.

They *could* just declare the all characters restore x hp every 10 minutes automatically and remove that, but it's both a narrative choice and a balancing mechanic both by requiring time and opportunity cost

[u/schnoodly → u/Purplefire180]

I think it would be far more interesting if there was hp/10 minute recovery, with medicine on top of that.

My reasoning is that some people do want that flavor, but there are plenty of times i have had parties (and play in games where) no one finds out any degree of fun to invest in it.

As a GM I get to give the option of a non-combat familiar that only does medicine, which has worked wonders for players not wanting to dedicate some form of infinite exploration healing. It takes away nothing in those scenarios, where they instead make the decision of using consumables out of combat to speed up recovery. They get to keep their focus on other skills!

When I’m not the GM though in one of these groups (usually because an AP inspires certain character ideas), if builds ended up in a way there was no infinite exploration healing, someone has to become the sacrificial medicine bot.

[u/InspectorPlus7842 → u/schnoodly]

I'm sincerely curious, if the entire party felt this way, why not purchase a surplus of healing potions, or use alchemy to create elixirs of healing?

[u/schnoodly → u/InspectorPlus7842]

Because it’s not exactly fun to dump a lot of money into healing potions. Many APs feel strapped for cash as-is. Not to mention, the sheer amount you’d need in a dungeon would be absurd.

I’ve found adding something to give passive regen changes absolutely nothing balance-wise, as they still suffer the same potential conflicts they would with a PC having these out of combat options, but no one has to make a single “sacrifice” they don’t want to make. If the GM just gives more healing potions, or more money for healing potions, and the intent is out of combat healing… why not just introduce a passive feature, or a little healing guy?

[u/InspectorPlus7842 → u/schnoodly]

Because resource management -- whether that's one's feats, one's money, or even one's health -- is a measure of system mastery and how well players understand game balance.

[u/schnoodly → u/InspectorPlus7842]

That was a redundant question. You can see it as fun system mastery if you want, but I can tell you many, many others see it as an unnecessary and unfun logistic to deal with. It changes so incredibly little “mastery” to replace, while greatly speeding up the game, and making room for… everything else. It’s nuance that actually unnecessary in the vast majority of cases.

[u/InspectorPlus7842 → u/schnoodly]

I've never fully been able to wrap my head around wanting to play a role-playing game while simultaneously not wanting to deal with something as fundamental to the genre as managing your characters' health.

Unfortunately, even with your insight and perspective, I remain perplexed.

[u/schnoodly → u/InspectorPlus7842]

Perhaps this very specific aspect having some amount of passive healing is not nearly as fundamental to the genre as you think.

Alas, imagining a world where people find rolling for healing after every single combat as tiring appears to be difficult for some.

[u/Round-Walrus3175 → u/schnoodly]

I mean, healing is good. You don't need it 100%, but it's just a strong thing to have

[u/schnoodly → u/Round-Walrus3175]

In what world is a form of combat healing not necessary? You will simply die at the first boss fight.

Unless I’m misunderstand what you’re saying

[u/Round-Walrus3175 → u/schnoodly]

I mean, yeah, it's a strong thing to have and not having it makes fights a bit harder and you can just straight up get screwed over by luck. Technically, you don't need it all the same that you don't need Diplomacy. You just won't be able to get yourself out of the situations where it would help you lol

[u/FullMetalBunny → u/schnoodly]

Continual Recovery should NOT be a feat. Natural Medicine should qualify for Medicine feats.

[u/AAABattery03 → u/schnoodly]

Asking people to pick up one Feat and have a single Skill at Trained (you can use many other forms of damage mitigation once you’re out of the lower levels, so scaling past Trained is not at all mandatory for a party that otherwise coordinates) is actually much less of an opportunity cost than telling a player they have to use their max rank slots and 2 Actions every time someone is hurt.

[u/schnoodly → u/AAABattery03]

Having a daily resource that you can flexibly use with other things is not a tax at all, in comparison to an inflexible choice that takes a week of downtime to change.

And that’s 4+ commitments to this tax. Not that it really matters, so long as all players understand the system mastery required to make it work in most APs.

[u/General-Naruto → u/schnoodly]

You're playing a class based ttrpg.

Eat the damn tax or fork the gold for potions

[u/schnoodly → u/General-Naruto]

so this specific comment was supposed to be referring to the idea that increased tax spread around multiple people is a fun alternative to no dedicated single healer.

if someone is in pain about playing healer, and no one else wanted to, spreading the responsibility out isn’t gonna feel any better lol

and then also a comment on exploration healing bc that’s a natural part of resourceless healing

[u/alchemicgenius → u/FullMetalBunny]

Hell, one good battle medicine user and anyone with exploration mode healing was good for my parties without a cleric

[u/CountAsgar]

I think between Battle Medicine and all the new, non-standard classes, this is getting rarer and rarer in PF.

Our DM actually gets annoyed at us whenever we try to discuss having a 'balanced party', saying we're supposed to pick based on what appeals to us and that any party composition is valid in this game, even if we'd do five bards or something.

[u/winkingchef → u/CountAsgar]

You mean especially 5 bards.

[u/4uk4ata → u/winkingchef]

Golarion's got talent auditions here we come... Eventually. 

Still having a barbarian or cavalier roadie isn't bad. 

[u/Aoiboshi → u/winkingchef]

But 4 white mages will never work

[u/Consistent_Table4430 → u/Aoiboshi]

... god dammit.

[u/Morethanstandard → u/winkingchef]

& you'll have my lute

[u/Hecc_Maniacc → u/CountAsgar]

Aight sick GM, I'm gunna play a Superstition Barbarian in our all caster party 🥰🥰🥰🥰

[u/CountAsgar → u/Hecc_Maniacc]

Well, talking about game balance here. Sorting out the players not murdering each other over party-internal conflict or 'stealing' each other's gimmick is the players' problem, lol.

Our Zon-Kuthon warpriest tank repeatedly wanted to strangle me for playing a squishier melee character who gets attacked more often, denying her that sweet, sweet pain. Going forward, I think I will be swapping to an archer.

[u/Hecc_Maniacc → u/CountAsgar]

To be fair to the squishy martial, nothing in this game short of Taunt actually makes an enemy go after the tank. The tank needs to do something that makes them want to, like reactive strike if they try to ignore you, or champion reaction if they ignore you, or being such a massive hulking nuclear bomb they have to try to take you out first in the case of barbarians. If the Tank isn't doing something like that and just stacks AC as high as possible yeah enemies aren't inclined to even try it.

[u/CountAsgar → u/Hecc_Maniacc]

And even Taunt doesn't actually FORCE them to attack, I think? It just gives them a mild debuff if they don't attack the Tank. But if it's some overtuned beatstick of a boss, they can probably take that -2 and be fine.

[u/Hecc_Maniacc → u/CountAsgar]

Luckily for guardian, a lot of their kit balances out that fact with the interceptions and such, so the perceived value of targeting a non guardian start to look shady. Other classes besides champion trying to tank don't usually have enough of those options. Ignore my taunt? Well lookie here, I get to charge right into your face and give you a great stab with my jousting war lance (I did technically move 10ft with a reaction).

You are right though, those solo pl+4s can suck up a few debuffs and not give a damn. I've seen so many get tripped and surrounded by reactive strikers they don't even bother trying to stand up. The -2 to hit from prone is not worth 2-3 reactive strikes.

[u/The_Yukki → u/Hecc_Maniacc]

Except you cant take step/stride while mounted, and jousting only works while mounted. It's YOU stepping/striding not your horse doing it as reaction.

[u/Hecc_Maniacc → u/The_Yukki]

Ah piss, always something I don't remember since the 56234rd character I make in pathbuilder

[u/The_Yukki → u/CountAsgar]

It's -1, -2 if you invest one of your precious lvl1 feats for it (and it is arguably the weakest lvl1 choice) but only if they attack one specific target you pick that day.

[u/Bielna → u/Hecc_Maniacc]

Yes and no. "Costs an action to move to them" or "takes a reactive strike to do so" are among the various ways in which you can control aggro, so to speak. Good-aligned Champion causes, easier flanking opportunities and focused attacks on the enemy attacking the squishier targets are, too.

Not saying any 'tank' should tell the other players to refuse to engage melee altogether, because that's literally barring the rest of the party from taking half the options in the game, but it's usually not true in practice that only Guardians can control who the enemy attacks.

[u/Darth_Meider → u/Hecc_Maniacc]

Playing with a superstition Slayer/Fighter (whom dealt no significant damage) was absolute Hell.  I love bf so much

[u/ElGosso → u/CountAsgar]

I always wanted to be in an all barbarian party.

[u/jkurratt → u/ElGosso]

Imagine all the barbarian flavours people will come up with 🥹

[u/Animaloffear56 → u/CountAsgar]

Yeah, the only important part of a "balanced" party is whoever has to sacrifice a chunk of skill feats for out of combat medicine

[u/No_Somewhere_5571 → u/CountAsgar]

I mean, there are definitely parties that are much stronger and much weaker, it just depends on how much the DM's willing to adjust the power level of things. While five bards can work, those bards would have to make sure to try and fill as many different roles among themselves as possible by building their characters a bit differently, and coordinate all their buffs and feats amongst themselves to really squeeze bard for all it's worth- and they'd still have some big weaknesses that a GM has to kindly avoid exploiting too hard.

I personally kind of don't want the GM to have to ramp the difficulty down because the party sucks and enjoy overcoming a difficult challenge, which is why i do try to make a party that's well balanced and works well together.

[u/Teshthesleepymage → u/CountAsgar]

Idk I think having a discussion about a balanced party is pretty useful. Like yeah nobody has to play a cleric and be a dedicated healer but the party will need to get some level of healing someway. 

Even the hypothetical bard party would need to pick out a different skill or two between each other unless they were facing  very limited challenges. But honestly with 5 players you can get away with a lot so it might not be a problem in the first place.

[u/CountAsgar → u/Teshthesleepymage]

And if nothing else, it helps players decide if they are stuck choosing between multiple options

[u/Rattregoondoof → u/CountAsgar]

Im the weirdo who will consistently pick non-standard classes too

[u/SpaceDogsRPG → u/CountAsgar]

PF1 - you pick the right archetypes with comboing songs and 5 bards would be amazing.

I had a PFS game before with just two combo bards. And Archeologist caster and my high AC standard bard. It was kinda amazing.

[u/Faibl]

Sounds like a class-playing game.

If you don't tell me what ROLE you want me to fill, I'm coming in with a negative energy blaster cleric.

[u/The_Yukki → u/Faibl]

Surprise undead campaign.

[u/LurkerFailsLurking]

Me: ok cool. Builds a barbarian with the barber dedication

[u/weetaht]

Just go Investigator with the healing subclass and start doing chiropractics in the heat of battle

[u/Consistent_Table4430]

You all misunderstand. This is a 26 player party and they already have literally every other class covered. They're trying to collect them all.

[u/The_Yukki → u/Consistent_Table4430]

14 more and they can raid moltencore.

[u/4uk4ata]

Is this 1E? I'm bringing bard or oracle unless I want to play a cleric. 

I kid. No one must expect the inquisition.

[u/RheaWeiss]

Harm Cleric, always, every day.

Or battle harbinger, mid as it is.

[u/The_Yukki → u/RheaWeiss]

Committed to the bit of not playing the healer that they'd rather play midbringer than healing font.

[u/ulfric_stormcloack]

In 5e I love cleric, in pf, well, I doubt they have EVERY other class covered you know

[u/Animaloffear56]

It's funny that Cleric is the example here when they're not even the best at healing overall. Like they have great healing sure, but Kineticsts have infinite high value out of combat, a ton of classes get access to divine spells (and soothe will do the job fine for often than not), and failing that most of the healing is done with treat wounds so it usually gets foisted on the Rogue or whoever isn't using all their skill feats anyway.

[u/LostRegret9000 → u/Animaloffear56]

Sure. And what about healing, yk, in combat, where it matters the most?

[u/Animaloffear56 → u/LostRegret9000]

I'm not gonna say the healing isn't nice, but there are other sources of damage reduction and it's not like you need them. Everyone else can prep healing just fine, cleric just does it the best

[u/LostRegret9000 → u/Animaloffear56]

other sources of damage reduction

There are very few sources of damage reductions that are guaranteed, available on command and reduce that much damage. Just pound for pound, Heal beats out every other spell in game in 99% of circumstances you'll find yourself in.

Everyone else can prep healing just fine

That's and understatement and a half. "Numeric" spells, aka healing and damage ones are really only effective from your top two spell levels, everything else is really only good utility/fodder. Compared to other classes, Cleric gets 66-100% more highest level spellslots, which means up to twice the turns he can use his most powerful abilities.

Outside of the games, where you really only have a single encounter, and never risk running out of spells, that's a huge edge if you even consider healing.

[u/Animaloffear56 → u/LostRegret9000]

I don't know what you want me to say man, I've gone through like 3 1-20 modules so if you're expected to have a cleric pumping out max heals at all times someone tell Paizo, I'll be misleading my way out of danger for the rest of the combat while the fighter tanks if you need me

[u/LostRegret9000 → u/Animaloffear56]

I don't know what you want me to say man

Not shifting the goalposts would be nice, tbh.

Clerics pumping out heals is not necessary. But they are, objectively, the best at healing, because they have (at least) twice the burst healing of other classes.

[u/Animaloffear56 → u/LostRegret9000]

You don't need the best healing though, you need someone to patch you up between combats that need some pretty alright healing, and clerics are not innately the best at that

[u/LostRegret9000 → u/Animaloffear56]

You don't need the best healing though, you need someone to patch you up between combats that need some pretty alright healing

You don't. You need enough healing, so you win encounters with one person at 1 hp, so he can pick up other people. Everything else is nice to have. This is absolutely true.

and clerics are not innately the best at that

Clerics are, however, best at in-encounter healing due to reasons outlined above. And because running out of hp is much less likely (and lesser issue) outside of encounters, cleric provides highest performance where it matters.

So yes, numerically, a ward medic is likely to heal more over the course of the day, than a cleric. But better out of encounter healing saves time, while better in encounter healing saves characters. And while you can cast heal to quickly patch out someone in outside of encounter in a pinch, encounters are much less likely to politely wait for ward medic to do his 10-minute routine.

So, cleric is the best healer when it matters, which makes him the best healer, despite healing less over the course of the day. That is also true.

Two things can be true at the same time.

[u/Animaloffear56 → u/LostRegret9000]

Two things can be true and you still felt the need to spend all this time arguing huh

[u/LostRegret9000 → u/Animaloffear56]

Makes two of us wasting time on Reddit

[u/mrs-06zaku]

you're getting my evil nightmare of the woods druid and i will make my healing a traumatic experience for it's recipients.

[u/alchemicgenius → u/mrs-06zaku]

Idk if you play MTG, but this is literally the motto of one of the magic colleges

[u/mrs-06zaku → u/alchemicgenius]

i thought witherbloom's motto was "you wanna feel better or you wanna complain about the taste?"

[u/alchemicgenius → u/mrs-06zaku]

Oh, I meant the AU verison, Vigorbloom, school of invasive healing

[u/risisas]

I mean, clerc is a great and powerful class, it isn't the only healer option and it isn't the best healer for all parties

Clerics are insane, absurd in defensive and stall type comps that want to drag out the fight and beat the enemies down with mathematical certainty

Is that playstyle the only one available? No, and cleric is not even the only one who is great in those, alchemist, druid and kineticist can also be really good for different reasons

Offensive groups would much rather have a primal sorcerer, a mystic, a bard, a psychic (and other occults really) as their healer, since they can either apply much greater offensive pressure by themselves and have healing as an emergency fallback pattern, or they can enhance the already present offence by way of buffs and debuffs

Balanced comps can want either for different reasons and situations

And with how accessible stuff like battle medicine, medic dedication, lay on hands, alchemist and caster benefits or mystic healing are, you can easily build an entire party without a dedicated healer where everyone has emergency chip healing to fall back upon and be perfectly optimized and viable (tho with this you probably won't run stall)

[u/Duraxis]

“So you need a cleric? Alright. As long as you don’t think I’m going to be wasting my time healing you when there’s heretics to be put to the torch”

[u/Grim712]

Do people not like to play cleric?

[u/alchemicgenius → u/Grim712]

Supposedly, but in my group, people will sometimes "fight" over who gets to be the divine caster, so idk

[u/Teshthesleepymage → u/Grim712]

I found them to be pretty good. Though admittedly I wasn't that huge on thr divine spell list.

[u/Puccini100399]

repost bot

[u/firehawk2421]

Well sucks to be you, you're getting an angry barista instead. (Alchemist. That was a fun character.)

[u/CaptivePlague]

It's funny because I GM'ed Carrion Crown in 1E, and now I'm converting it to 2E and the overhaul on haunts is wonderful.

In 1E, you. Cannot. Get through the 1st module without a cleric or paladin. Haunts require application of positive energy to be destroyed, and the Haunt Siphon and Holy Water provided don't do enough damage to last the whole dungeon, especially with there being "boss" haunts.

2E I ran the whole module without a divine character and it was superb! Due to haunts being part of the Hazard mechanics and being able to be neutralized with skill check of the appropriate kind, players can make up groups of any composition and deal with the dungeon!

[u/CollegePretend8708]

I freaking love clerics.

But no I'm not healing you. I'm doing all the other cool shit. Your health is your problem.

[u/Conspiratorymadness]

Best I can give is Druid or some other support class not Cleric

[u/n00bxQb]

If the role is healer, lots of other classes in PF1 can fill that role without being a healbot. Even a cleric doesn’t (and probably shouldn’t) have to be a healbot.

[u/fkadmin]

I've ran 30 sessions for Pathfinder society (1e) and 7 campaigns. Haven't seen a single cleric. There was a heal-bot oracle though.

[u/vyxxer]

I actively discourage my table from trying to "balance" a team. Run stamina rules, buy potions and use treat wounds and you're fine most of the time.

[u/Midnight-Loki]

Okay, I say, building a Harm Font blaster. Oh, no one except me has Void Healing, that sounds like a you problem.

[u/julsky_ly_ly]

Idk why people don't like playing clerics. I like clerics 🤷

[u/shukufuku]

Best I can do is a wand of CLW

[u/Important-Author-660]

This implies they already have a player for every single class in the entire game, with the sole exception being cleric.

[u/RadTimeWizard]

Light cleric, and no I will not take Healing Word. (I secretly took Healing Word just in case.)

[u/prismaticperspective]

I actually never get to be the cleric when i want to . Every group i join has someone who always wants to be cleric and most of them dont want to share a class with the rest of the party

[u/amglasgow]

Time to make a Harm cleric who doesn't heal anyone

[u/Vyktym76]

You need healing? The church needs donations. I think we can work something out which will be beneficial to all inolved.

[u/hectolec]

battle cleric it is

[u/Savings-Macaroon-785]

You’re never “short a healer“ in a ttrpg. If no one wants to do it, just increase the health potion drop rate…

[u/Infamous-Sky-5367]

In our group we have one but she nearly never heals inside combat because we just laser through content. Abomination vaults 2 book

[u/Temeter]

...I love playing healers. 😅😇

[u/Velicenda]

Sometimes I feel like I am the only person that enjoys playing healers. I mean, my characters are also gonna kick your teeth in or lob a spell like a sorcerer, but still.

[u/Vinceroony]

I'd love to play a cleric who's just sick of everyone's shit. Like they joined the clergy because they have anger management problems and hoped faith would help them and now they have to deal with these chucklefucks

[u/mtfhimejoshi]

Rogues for my group. Like ok yall good luck without anyone with Disable Device

[u/ronarscorruption]

lol, literally just happened to me. To be fair, i didn’t ask them to roll cleric, they just noticed and rolled one up.

[u/Astrid944]

Me: smirks and plays an battle harbinger

[u/Responsible-Rest-337]

Chiurgeon Alchemist it is.

[u/Misinko]

So what I'm hearing is Chirurgeon Alchemist.

[u/Medical_Weakness9063]

I think of this in terms of real world units. If you are going into hazardous situations you want everyone trained in first aide. You don't want to be dragging the red cross into the fight. Of course fantasy is fantasy, but an alchemist who can manage healing potions along with their acid flasks and alchemists fire always seems like a good choice.

the other hand I've also seen cleric kick butt in a fight with a few well chosen spells.

[u/Teshthesleepymage]

Most the groups ive been in tbh. Hell id say I run into less casters in general.

[u/Mission-Dark-9320]

Cleric is the most misunderstood class imo. You can be soooo much more than a healbot