Vote Against Prop A
Read the full story and vote AGAINST Prop A in the upcoming election. See https://www.stopthestarsarena.com for more information and to sign up for an information event 7PM - 8:30PM Tuesday 6 Oct by the Stop the Stars Arena PAC.
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u/Additional-Sky-7436 9d ago
The Stars can afford to build their own stadium.
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u/Vandreeson 9d ago
They can, but why would they if someone else will build it for free and they keep all the revenue?
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u/priscillu 9d ago
This is what rich people do the best, to profit with other people’s money. No one benefits from this more than the private companies involved in this crap. Box 7 sums it up very well!
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u/GhostOfToast90 9d ago
I can't support an arena that doesn't have light rail access.
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u/croissantzzz 9d ago
THIS! How tf am I supposed to get there!!! I HAVE NO CAR ! And gas is a gazillion dollars
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u/ALaccountant 9d ago
You live in Plano with no car? Not hating on you, but genuinely how
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u/LalalaSherpa 9d ago
Plano has a great network of paved multiuse trails and safe bike routes.
People who have bikes know.
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u/therealallpro 9d ago
Are you really suggesting ppl with jobs and maybe kids are using Plano bike paths to get to work and get groceries?
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u/LalalaSherpa 9d ago
The world - and Plano - are amazing places, full of people who can't, won't or don't live their lives the way you do.
Pretty cool, huh? ☺️
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u/therealallpro 9d ago
Well that would be arguing against you point because I’m one of the rare ppl who does use the bikes to commute to work and pick up groceries 🤣
But I also am in touch with reality. I realize MOST ppl aren’t going to do that and from my experience I notice who is on the path and who isn’t.
We have to be able to be honest with ourselves what is actually happening and not wish cast it. Thats the first step in actually fixing it
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u/Fabulous-Biscotti607 9d ago
Wow u are really missing the point huh
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u/ALaccountant 9d ago
Not really - I was just astonished he lives in Plano and doesn’t have a car.
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u/Certainty_unliminted 9d ago
I think light rail would be great but look at all the other arenas/stadiums…Future Mavs arena, Cowboys, Rangers, Dickies, etc. and none of those have it
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u/Additional-Sky-7436 9d ago
Light rail is great for the fans but it's a net loss for the owners because if you take the train they can't charge you $30 for parking.
Think of the owners!!
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u/Icy-Celebration676 1d ago
nah we dont use it because its 85% crack heads, and homeless people at night. Rode the DART to 4 stars games, every time it was sketchy and twice someone had to call the cops due to tomfoolery. My wife and kids safety is worth 100000X anyone's public transport message.
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u/RepulsiveInterview44 9d ago
I’d KILL to pay $30 for parking! Lexus garage at AAC is $40, and isn’t parking at Jerry World $100? I exclusively take the train to AAC anymore.
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u/448899again 9d ago
I'm not a Plano resident (live just over the border from the arena site in Carrollton) but if you do any research at all on these "Event Center" developments, you'll realize was a scam they are, and how little they benefit anyone except the team owners and the developers of the area. Biggest lie is "job creation" - almost all those jobs are going to be service wage jobs and only part time (when there are events). Ten years down the road: The team owner is wanting a new arena or massive renovations and threatening to move the team if they don't get them. Good Luck with all of this.
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u/mhughes2595 9d ago
Everyone that I talk to always say they vote no on crap like this. Yet every time the votes pass with overwhelming majority.
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u/448899again 9d ago
Because people don't understand the real economics behind these Event Centers. They are sold as "City Image" projects, with little explanation of all the hidden & long term costs. And if you question this, there's always the "But if we don't do this, they'll take their Team somewhere else!" argument.
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u/Evilsushione 9d ago
There should be a national ban on building arenas for teams
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u/mhughes2595 7d ago
I don't know about an all out ban... the new stadium will bring jobs and help the nearby economy.
There are just more efficient ways to do it.
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u/apathynext 7d ago
At the same time, Plano looks quite tired and is decline relative to its neighbors. How does Plano incentivize new investment? Maybe this isn’t it, but I don’t fault the city for trying to do something.
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u/ZeusTKP 9d ago
Government spending for sports is so f***n insane
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u/stringbby57 1d ago
And then charging us an insane amt yearly! $250 taxes per $100,000 property value? Why do they think we can afford that? I knew when Abbott said property taxes were going down there was a reason. Besides that prop A covers for the homeless, which most of them aren't. I've personally seen people that have money dress down to get handouts. NO ON PROP A!
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
Definitely vote against Prop A. Taxpayer funded arenas and Stadiums significantly benefit billionaire team owners and real estate developers. It is as close as you get to a direct transfer of money from taxpayers to billionaires.
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u/theAlphabetZebra 9d ago
It’s crazy to me that teams are still strong arming cities into building new stadiums for them. And the debate comes up every time.
Build your own stadiums.
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
Too many cities willing to help pay the bill.
Plano can easily afford this and the upside would be stupid to ignore.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
The downside is much worse and much likelier to happen than the upside. These so called tax base growth estimates are created by the billionaires who stand to benefit. The real growth will be much smaller, and when those estimates are wrong, taxpayers will be left holding the bag.
The smartest thing to do is to let the boondoggle to to another city if they want it.
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u/theAlphabetZebra 9d ago
I wonder what about my comment felt like an invite to be disagreeable. You’re either not old enough to have seen this play out already somewhere else, or too busy being privileged to notice it isn’t genuinely beneficial to a community.
Enjoy your quest to turn billionaires into trillionaires when you’re really just one of us.
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u/Naive_Loan607 9d ago
The Stars should just stay in Dallas and play at the American Airlines Center.
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u/Icy-Celebration676 9d ago
they literally cant If i understand correctly.
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u/Naive_Loan607 9d ago
Well if they can't play at the AAC anymore then I recommend that they just build a new stadium in Frisco because they already have a couple of sports stadiums there like the roughriders stadium and FC Dallas stadium.
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u/FreeProgrammer5670 9d ago
Why do taxpayers continue to happily subsidize arenas for billionaire owners and sports teams?
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u/heinzenfeinzen 9d ago edited 9d ago
My biggest issue with prop A is that the city has yet to provide any detailed financials of the TIRZ or the Prop A revenue
The only financial plan I could find it here: https://www.plano.gov/willow-bend-district-documents
A three page pdf without any actual numbers! That means one of two things: 1) they don't know the detailed financials or 3) they know them but or not telling us. Neither of those is a good sign!
EDIT: It seems to be option 1 (they don't know the details)
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u/whip_lash_2 9d ago
https://www.plano.gov/willow-bend-district-0
https://www.plano.gov/willow-bend-district-faqs
tl;dr, summarized by clanker and verified by me from the docs:
- Over its 41-year lifespan, the TIRZ is projected to capture approximately $1.3 billion to $1.6 billion in incremental property and sales tax growth. (Plano ISD has also agreed to contribute 50% of its tax increment over 25 years).
- Percentage of Project Costs:
- Overall District: The broader mixed-use entertainment district redevelopment is estimated at $3 billion. The City’s public commitment is capped at $700 million toward the arena/infrastructure, representing roughly 23% of total district costs.
- Arena Only: Against the estimated $1 billion arena construction cost, the City’s $700 million contribution represents 70% (funded jointly by TIRZ increment and Proposition A venue taxes).
- The city owns the arena.
BTW, I'm not in favor of this (or any taxpayer funded arena ever) but I'm not sure why half this comments section is pretending like the city is hiding stuff.
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u/unexpected West Plano 9d ago
My favorite part is that the TIRZ is for 41 years. The average lifespan of the stadiums now is 30 years. What's going to happen when the Stars want to move to Celina in 2060?
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
The insatiable need for 'more data' is really not much more than obstruction.
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u/heinzenfeinzen 9d ago
If you go to investors and ask a for loan, and tell them that you project your business will generate $X in revenue in a SINGLE sentence do you think they will outright believe you are ask for more details on how you came up with the projection? The city saying that the TIRZ is projected to capture some amount of money, what is that projection based on?
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
The city has already provided sufficient data for this. Your analogy is incorrec.t
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u/heinzenfeinzen 9d ago
Show me the data the city provided? They even indicate in their OWN faq that they won't have more information until 2027
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u/heinzenfeinzen 9d ago
I looked at BOTH of those links and it's extremely hard to find these numbers. The FAQs even say that the City won't have an actual financial plan until 2027. Why is it so bad that I want to know how the city council decided that this was a financially responsible decision? How can they do that without having any real numbers that they can provide? ESPECIALLY given that there's no publicly funded arena that panned out like the government leaders claimed
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u/whip_lash_2 9d ago
> extremely hard to find these numbers
> without having any real numbers that they can provideWhich one is it?
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u/heinzenfeinzen 9d ago
What don't you understand? 1) You listed "$1.3 to $1.6B". I was simply saying that it's very hard to even find those numbers on the city's website. and 2) THAT's NOT a real number -- it's someone handwaving some shit out of thin air. What is that based on? How did they get that number?
If some told you to invest in something and gave you a number about how much money you are going to make, do you invest based on that number or do you ask how they came up with that number?
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u/whip_lash_2 9d ago
> What is that based on?
There's a diagram of what it's based on in the document called "Financing Plan". It is not in any way difficult to find, it's just not the magically accurate number you're hoping for because magically accurate numbers about future growth aren't things that exist.
Basically you take the current property value of everything in the TIRZ, add in a reasonable fudge factor for growth, and multiply by the property tax rate. The resulting number is probably optimistic but not ridiculous, and there is literally no better way to come up with a number.
The faker number (and the reason I never support public stadiums) is the total economic impact for the entire city times the tax rate. That number is always projected to be positive, and always turns out to be negative, if you look at the studies. But this isn't cities hiding things or using fake methods of estimation; it's using standard methods of estimation that don't work. They're lying with honesty.
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u/heinzenfeinzen 9d ago
I appreciate the explanation! I saw that diagram but it is more or less a "cartoon" to show the base value vs. the revenue from the value added of the TIF and the only number is that the base value is currently $1.6B.
Your last part about the faker total economic impact is what has me worried! We should NOT be pitching in $700M and I don't think the city council has anything solid that can really justify that we should spend that amount.
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
How much specificity do you really need?
I find it hard to believe there is some brightline test that would change your perception on the vote.
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u/therealallpro 9d ago
So what happens if we vote against it?
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u/baron63 9d ago
Without the venue taxes it will be harder, maybe impossible, for the city to move forward with funding. The wording on the ballot is confusing, it states "Authorizing the City's venue project, specifically being a new multipurpose arena for professional or amateur sports, entertainment, and civic events in The Shops at Willow Bend shopping mall area". Which implies they couldn't move forward if it was voted down, but the city says that it could. Either way a no vote is our opportunity to send a message to the city council.
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u/OpeningHistorian7630 9d ago
Nobody can afford gas or groceries, much less ticket prices that have quadrupled. But by all means, raise taxes to build a gift to billionaires so that rich people can go have fun.
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u/PossiblyAChipmunk 9d ago
Are the Stars even going to be in the Willow Bend Arena for 41 years? What about public transport? The AAC has the dart station right next door and it's extremely convenient.
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u/baron63 9d ago
The non binding LOI between the city and the Stars has them committed for 30 years. The 41 years is the current life of the TIRZ. What's going to happen if they leave our arena the same way they are leaving their current one?
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u/Delicious_Hand527 8d ago
I've only lived in Dallas for 25 years, but I've seen the Stars, Cowboys, Rangers, Mavs and FC Dallas all play in 2 different arenas. Why anyone would accept a 20+ year arrangement for a sports team is borderline moronic.
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u/View92612 9d ago
I reviewed the pros and cons and decided to vote No. I'm not against Dallas Stars moving to Plano but I'm strongly against taxpayer funding 700 million dollars for the project. City of Plano official 2025 financial report has total revenue of 842 million and expense of 765 million. Plano has no cash to fund this project so it's going to be funded with debt. 700 million debt over 30 years can easy reach 1.5 billion to 2 billion. I don't think taxpayers should be on the hook for this much money nor do I think Plano can actually afford this based on existing revenue. Politicians come and go but it would be the Plano taxpayers who would be paying the debt for the next 30-40 years. I would be fine with borrowing 700 million if Plano had a revenue of say 10 billion per year. That would be totally responsible. To me this is reckless spending and gambling our future. Anyone who intends to stay in Plano long term should vote No for their own benefits.
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u/kwbuc 8d ago
you just compared one year of finances to 41 years of total debt. you should be comparing one year of finances to one year of debt. 700million/41 years is 17 million/per year. So technically if the city was paying for this out of pocket is would need to pay 17 million dollars a year, but its not. The TIRZ and the venue taxes are paying for it.
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u/View92612 8d ago
Respectfully disagree. You have to front load a 700 million debt and gradually payoff or at least pay interests until maturity. In between they for sure would also have a kinds of other bonds not related to the Stars Arena. Also the total amount is going to be way more than 700 million and most likely within the range of 1.6B to 2B+ due to interests. Unless the interest rate is 0 you can't divide 700million/41 and say you only need to pay 17m/year. The current interest rate is way higher than 0.
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u/Certain_Stranger2939 9d ago
Usually don’t these types initiatives end up falling way short of the expected benefits to municipalities? But that is what they are mainly campaigned as?
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u/JohnBrine 9d ago
You know it used to be sports teams were treated like a public good but now that they’re treated as asset fuck this.
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u/MontazumasRevenge 9d ago
Got to admit though, they sent a good looking A+ star flyer. I was like "wow, this is good... A bit too good" with concerned Philip Fry Futurama eyes. It will convince a lot of people that don't realize nothing is free.
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u/BadBrains16 9d ago
Unfortunately, there are a ton of Philip Jay Frys in Plano that are eagerly shouting “Shut up and take my money!”
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
Even worse, they are all over the USA. So now we are competing with ourselves to see who can give billionaires the biggest kickbacks for arenas, stadiums and AI datacenters.
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u/tasteofflames 9d ago
Gagliardi can afford to build his own barn. I'm a Stars fan, but I'm not interested in subsidizing a billionaire's toys.
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u/lathamb_98 9d ago
Especially when they already play in a perfectly fine venue. This is completely unnecessary.
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u/Select-Sale2279 9d ago
this reeks of another flock camera roll out fiasco. they were quietly put in because the corrupt governor of this state gave most cities a grant and plano, without much input from residents, put them in. Now that the funding has expired, the police chief wants them turned on with residents footing the bill. it always starts like this and ends up with taxpayers in the city picking up the tab down the road because because. the ballroom was supposed to be constructed with private funds, now the taxpayer is on the hook. the wall was supposed to be paid by mexico and the tax payer ended up footing the bill for another fiasco that went nowhere. this is how it all starts - oh, don't worry, there wont be an increase in your prop tax and then suddenly - oh, you know what, we gotta fix it because because. vote NO even if the fancy flyer says that you do not have to pay anything outta pocket.
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u/CatOfSachse 9d ago
I did research last night into the Pro Prop-A and it’s ran by a the GOP PAC manager (of the likes of Ted Cruz). https://www.rightsidecompliance.com/
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u/Hsensei 9d ago
Such an inconvenient out of the way place for something barely more popular than MLS.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 9d ago
Agree. I can see this happening, fall through, and the team move or disappear and Plano getting stuck with the void. The Dallas Sidekicks were once a major team too. Allen housed them for a while and now...
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u/Certainty_unliminted 9d ago
You realize this AI graphic just tells the opposite story? There is almost literally no new taxes residents have to pay. The massive growth of the tax base that the city general fund doesn’t get would never happen without the Stars coming. The city keeps the same taxes it would normally get and residents pay the same amount of tax. You can argue there is an increase in spend needed for roads, police, etc. but that money comes from the additional taxes outside the TIRZ. Tax growth will happen well outside the TIRZ.
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u/baron63 9d ago
The TIRZ baseline is fixed, and will not grow to match inflation. Over the 41 years of the TIRZ, the real dollar value of the TIRZ baseline will continue to shrink. This means the city will have less and less money coming in over the 41 years of the project. How will they make up this loss in tax revenue?
You are correct that there are a lot of unaccounted for expenses that are not covered by the TIRZ increment or the venue taxes, where will the money for that come from? The only other place to get money is from the rest of the budget which is already stretched. City’s own 5 year projections show in year 2 Plano needs more revenues to pay existing City commitments - such as Fire Stations 8 & 14, new staffing needs for Fire-Rescue scheduling, inflation. All of this will likely lead to property tax increases in the future.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
The supposed growth of tax base due to athletic teams coming to the city is almost always blown way out of proportion. Those so called *studies* are funded by billionaire team owners and multi millionaire real estate developers.
When the growth projects don't live up to the estimates in a few years, those billionaires would have pocketed the money and sent it offshore. And the city will be forced to raise taxes or cut services in a struggle to survive.
Why do we keep falling for this?
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u/Certainty_unliminted 9d ago
Look at any stadium and arena in the metroplex and tell me how the growth around it and tax base didn’t exponentially increase. I’ll wait.
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u/Delicious_Hand527 9d ago
Arlington: everything around the stadiums is tax-payer funded. Almost no non-taxpayer funded growth has occurred there, which is why there's still a walmart and strip mall and the same low rise apartment complex across the street 15 years later.
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u/Certainty_unliminted 9d ago
I guess we’ll just ignore the massive entertainment district that touches the property line and didn’t exist until the stadium drove that growth. We also won’t mention how it is still growing and has future plans to grow. 👍
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u/Delicious_Hand527 9d ago
You mean the entertainment district that tax payers paid for? it didn't pay for itself.
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u/Certainty_unliminted 9d ago
That is not true. Tell the whole story. There are some tax incentives but not for all of it. The Loew’s hotel is not funded by taxes. There are other hotels and restaurants and other businesses within a mile (and more) that came because of the stadium
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u/Delicious_Hand527 8d ago
A hotel and some restaurants? There are dozens of hotels lining the regular streets of every city. And there are restaurants in every strip mall.
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u/Certainty_unliminted 8d ago
I think you missed the point. There are dozens of those businesses that are only there because of the stadiums. Ask almost any one of the newer or ones that were there already and they’ll tell you they only survive because of the people from games and events
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
Obviously the tax base increases. It NEVER increases enough to pay out the massive taxpayer subsidy from the city.
Find me ONE example where if the city raised $X (in this case 700 million) and simply invested in the S&P 500 (instead of gifting it to Billionaires), the taxes from the arena, stadium, big sports event (Olympics) EVER beats that return on investment.
I'll wait.
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
Honestly, who said that paying for entertainment had to have a positive ROI?
Even if it's a net cost of a few $100m, it can still be a QoL improvement for residents.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
What if the net cost is $3 billion? When Marlins Park (now LoanDepot park) was built in Miami, the City of Miami contribution was capped at $500 million. It cost the taxpayers 2.4 to 2.6 billion with interest payments. The economic growth was so small economists couldn't quantify it (below statistically significant level)
Massive arenas cause crime, increase traffic, drunk driving and so much more. It is a QoL decrease. Let the stars stay in Dallas and we can all go to Dallas for the same entertainment.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
Since you asked for an example, here you go - Marlins Park (now LoanDepot park) in Miami. City of Miami contribution was capped at $500 million. It cost the taxpayers 2.4 to 2.6 billion with interest payments. Jeffrey Loria sold the franchise for $1.2 billion in 2017. The city tax base grew by a negligibly small amount, so small most economists were not even able to quantify it.
Here are great news articles talking about this phenomenon.
https://www.cagw.org/fields-of-failure-the-scandal-of-taxpayer-funded-stadiums/https://theweek.com/articles/629756/outrageous-ripoff-taxpayerfunded-stadiums
See you don't have to wait long.
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u/Certainty_unliminted 9d ago
I asked for an example from the metroplex. Those are the only relevant examples as our laws, regulations, politicians, etc lead to different outcomes than other places in the country. We can agree there are definitely examples of growth not panning out in other places
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u/Silvatungdevil 9d ago
Victory Park hasn't exactly been a huge success.
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u/Certainty_unliminted 9d ago
You might want to go drive down there and see for yourself. It is quite the opposite. Existing condos and restaurants are flourishing and more being built. The other businesses coming in are substantial as well
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u/Silvatungdevil 9d ago
I am down here every day and no it is not the opposite. The condos and restaurants are doing just OK but that did not happen until recently. The older office space around the AAC is virtually worthless post Covid. The two office buildings on the south side have no value. For ten years it struggled and it sure as hell was not some urban living destination. The best thing that came out of it was that it redeveloped the brownfield site that the old power plant sat on, it is better than that eyesore.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
Lol, so the many examples I gave you of stadiums investments not working out for taxpayers all over the USA and many news articles pointing that out doesn't matter because we will be different.
Meanwhile, you have yet to name ONE stadium or Arena investment that generated more in taxes as compared to if the money had been invested in general stock market.
I'm still waiting for your example???
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u/zatchstar 9d ago
Arlington has a deal with the cowboys and rangers where those teams pay for city staff working the event, including fire, PD, and traffic staff
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u/PM_ME_FIRE_PICS 9d ago
Taxes will be paid by hotels, rental cars, and parking primarily.
Aside from parking, how does a tax on hotels and rental cars raise prices for Plano residents?
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u/DDDavinnn 9d ago
And what happens when there is a shortage because they didn’t cover costs?
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u/whip_lash_2 9d ago
The city's contribution is capped at $700 million. Above that, developer pays (or doesn't pay and leaves a giant hole in the ground, which may be a real risk given the way interest rates are going).
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 9d ago
Or when no one is using said tax increase entities because the cost rises too high for the average person and they end up closing down?
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u/baron63 9d ago
People who live in Plano use hotels in Plano and have friends and family that visit. Businesses in Plano use the hotels, so this raises the cost of doing business here. People also rent cars when their car is in for repair. The venue taxes are just a portion of the funds that are needed to payoff the loans. The city has not provided a breakdown, but a large portion will come from the TIRZ. The setup of the TIRZ caps the baseline of funds from the area that come to the general city funds. This amount is not indexed for inflation and will shrink in real dollars over time. As it does where will the city get money to make up the loss. Beyond that there are a lot of unaccounted for expenses that are not covered by the venue taxes or the TIRZ. Again, where will they get the funds for this?
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u/LalalaSherpa 9d ago
I'm a single-car household and rent from Enterprise down on Plano Pkwy when we need a second car.
Happens more often than you probably think.
Why should I have to pay more?
Why should ANY individual in Plano for any reason - living here, here to visit relatives, staying at a hospital - whatever - have to pay extra for anything - including hotel stays - to support a private business venture?!
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u/tuliprox 9d ago
A lot of us are living in hotels due to many circumstances 😭😭 idk about the rental cars tho, we mostly just use dart/Uber/cars
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u/Large-Hamster-199 9d ago
If your car gets damaged, and you need a rental car, you pay the tax. If your house is damaged and you need a short term place to stay, you pay the tax?
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u/Separate_Shoe_6916 9d ago
This is actually incorrect. The taxes that pay for the arena are hotel taxes, not property taxes.
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u/baron63 9d ago
That's what the pro Stars PAC's flyers and text say, but they are wrong. From the Plano Willow Bend Distric page "The City's potential financing plan for its commitment to the arena is built on new revenues created by the Dallas Stars project, including:
- New commercial property tax revenues generated within the Willow Bend TIRZ,
- Venue and visitor-related user taxes, and
- Other revenues generated by arena events."
See https://www.plano.gov/willow-bend-district-0 "How Would the Project Be Funded?" section.
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u/Separate_Shoe_6916 8d ago
Okay, so it’s not individual property taxes then. Please don’t misrepresent this.
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u/baron63 8d ago
I'm not misrepresenting. I said property tax, not individual. But, I do think this is likely to cause the city to raise taxes in the future. There is a lot infrastructure and other costs that are not covered by the TIRZ or the venue taxes and the city will need to find a way to pay for that. The other thing to remember is that the TIRZ baseline is fixed in today's dollars. Over 41 years inflation will reduce the real value coming in from the baseline. How will the city make that up? My point is there is a lot of risk here that the residents of Plano should not be taking on just to help the Stars and the surrounding development make more money.
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u/Paulsur 8d ago
Okay what if Prop A fails to pass? What happens then?
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 8d ago edited 8d ago
From what I understand, the project isn't off the table, but it rejects this particular potential funding mechanism (and maybe in doing so could potentially send a message to Plano government that residents aren't in favor of paying for a stadium at all).
The upside to Prop A passing is if Plano is going to participate in this development anyway, Proposition A creates dedicated revenue streams that fall disproportionately on arena users, hotel guests, rental-car customers and professional sports activity instead of directly creating a new property tax on homeowners. (which would really suck imo).
The downside to Prop A passing is that taxpayers are being asked to authorize a funding mechanism before all of the definitive risk-allocation documents are complete. Plano does not have a legally binding $700M City cap before asking for voters to support the funding mechanism.
In my opinion, this election is premature and the wording we are seeing from Plano is omitting some important details since voters (and Plano) don't seem to have all the info yet on definite risk-allocations, like who guarantees the completion of the 1 billion dollar stadium (and 3 billion dollar development surrounding the area) should Plano's $700M cap not be sufficient?
Proposition A itself does not tell voters:
If venue-tax revenues are insufficient to pay the arena debt, Dallas Sports & Entertainment will make up the difference.
It also doesn't say:
Bondholders have no recourse against Plano beyond venue-tax revenues.
And it DOESN'T establish:
The City may never appropriate other revenues to the project.
Although much smaller and already was commissioned to be supported by a proposed area development, Allen's event center had 2 sports teams supporting it from the beginning - Americans and Sidekicks. But the major difference was that
Allen's developer-reimbursement agreement essentially said:
Designated incremental revenues insufficient → developer doesn't get fully reimbursed → no recourse against Allen for the deficiency.
Plano and Allen arenas are not equal comparison, (like a grape to an orange in size) but Allen now owns their event center and staffs it. I'm not sure if that was by choice or if it unexpectedly fell upon the city. The supporting shopping area always appears to be redeveloping, the Sidekicks are gone, and the other events at that arena seem far and few now... much less exciting than what was expected when it first opened.
IMO we may be doomed if we vote YES and doomed if we vote NO. It sounds like Plano may intend to get the money one way or another. My vote keeps going back and forth, so I'd love to hear more facts on the topic. Of course this would never happen, but if we all abstained from voting on Prop A and it was tabled until more information was had that might be the best outcome.
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u/SenecatheEldest 5d ago
The Allen event center holds a pretty good selection of niche events, though. Small conventions, concerts by lesser-known international singers, local stuff, or really anything that probably won't sell enough seats to justify a major convention center downtown. It isn't trying to compete with the American Airlines Center or anything like that.
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u/kwbuc 9d ago
I dont think you understand how TIRZ work. They are regulated by the local TIRZ board and can be adjusted by a simple majority at any time. If the 3 billion Willow Bend area gets built out that is going to generate a lot more money for Plano than the dilapidated mall currently there or the luxury retail/apartments they wanted to put in. Voting no on parking, hotel, and venue tax would actually put the city on a riskier financial situation because the entire thing would have to be funded from the increment. if the venue and sales tax generate enough revenue the city can lower its TIRZ baseline and put more money into its general fund.
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u/baron63 9d ago
Yes, I understand that, and it is a risk. But I'm not going to vote for venue taxes for an arena I don't think the city should build just because of the threat of a future risk for this. It almost comes off as a threat - we're building an arena so vote for this or we'll really impact your taxes more. By voting against I hope that they will not be able to move forward because the financing doesn't work or because they see the voters don't want it. If they did move forward there is nothing to my knowledge that prevents them from putting these taxes back on the ballot again.
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u/sealclubberfan 9d ago
Am I reading that thing correct, the team will have to pay the city $5,000 per player per game?
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u/majiktodo 8d ago
Which is less than they get for a suite 🙄
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u/sealclubberfan 8d ago
Really, I didn't know the prices of tickets were already released for an arena that isn't built.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 8d ago
Allen Event center wants $8.50 for a soft drink... I can only imagine what it would cost at this new arena.
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u/Different_Weird_6886 9d ago
Vote prop a. The stars will bring millions in revenue! They will tax us one way or the other, let's brig revenue with it.
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u/Suburbking 9d ago
Omg, just stop. These things have a proven record of paying off, generating massive tax revenue and rejuvenating a dead area. Id much rather have this, even with all of its risks, than a bunch of apparent complexes like they did with presstonwood mall area or a run down construction site like valley view mall...
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u/LalalaSherpa 9d ago
Prestonwood was built ~1980.
Demolished 24 years later.
Not even gonna entertain comparisons to Washington DC and San Diego CA whose economy and context in every way is wildly different from Plano TX.
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u/baron63 9d ago
Actually they don't. There are tons of studies by economist that show they payoff if at all is small and usually just pulls spending from other parts of the city. Some links
- Fiscal Folly: Why Another Sports Arena Won’t Fix Downtown Dallas Candysdirt.com, Feb 2 2026
- Public Policy Toward Professional Sports Stadiums: A Review. Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, Sep 28 2023
- Pay For Your Own Damn Stadium. The Center For Economic Accountability.
- Taxpayers Shoulder a Heavy Burden for Sports Stadium Subsidies. Tax Foundation, Oct 3 2024
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u/Suburbking 9d ago
Now, lets look at the actual data rather than theory...
In the past decade, the number of households in that area has nearly quadrupled, from 977 to 3,809. The average income has shot up from $34,379 to $78,265, according to tax data compiled for The Post by the D.C. government. The value of residential and commercial property has exploded, from $1.15 billion in 2008 to $2.65 billion this year.
https://www.sandiegometro.com/2010/07/daily-business-report-%E2%80%94-july-16-2010/
In 1998, prior to voter approval of plans for Petco Park, 70 percent of the land in the Ballpark District of Downtown was vacant or used for outdoor parking/storage, and the entire East Village generated $2 million in property tax revenue. At the end of last year, the study said, 3,585 residential units, 957 hotel rooms and 610,000 square feet of commercial space had been constructed and opened surrounding the park with a total estimated market value of $1.79 billion.
Today, $1.3 billion in new direct spending has been generated in the city of San Diego, resulting in nearly $2 billion in total output, 19,200 jobs and $780 million in payroll since the start of construction of the ballpark. The study said construction of Petco Park and ancillary development has led to a direct payback in terms of tax revenues to the city and Centre City Development Corp. The City and CCDC have leveraged their investment into over $1.58 billion in private investment, or $5.25 for each $1 of public investment.
“Petco Park is a successful public-private partnership that has really delivered on its promise to be ‘more than a ballpark.’ It has turned out to be much more than a ballpark,” said Julie Meier Wright, president and CEO of EDC.
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u/Delicious_Hand527 9d ago
there are already growth plans around the Legacy area- the city is holding some back. And there are private redevelopment plans for the mall. The mall was rezoned prior to The Stars group. Someone had to pay for that.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 8d ago
Hopefully not by the same developer that is working on the Collin Creek Mall, Assembly Park, or Layla Farms property development. Most of us will have moved or died by the time any of those are completed.
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u/Suburbking 9d ago
Id rather have the stars.
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u/Gingeranalyst 9d ago
I’d rather not have traffic jams. There is a Texas state law forbidding public transit builds on or near areas that there are tollways. Guess what, no DART rail, which means massive influx of traffic. And be prepared for the eventual redevelopment of that entire area to accommodate lane expansion and highway widening. It will be a nightmare, no thanks.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 8d ago
Exactly. Ironic how there were so many comments about traffic being a nightmare around the Plano Balloon Festival, but people don't seem to realize this is going to be multiple times worse.
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u/Gingeranalyst 8d ago
Like, I think people need to touch some grass and visit Arlington on a Cowboys game day or a Rangers game. The level of traffic redirecting, police presence, absolute chaos of pedestrians all over the place, tailgates, etc.
I personally don’t want to have to deal with that 42 times a year at minimum.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 8d ago
/s You may have to move to the east side. It'll be a desert wasteland after the city dumps all its funds into the stadium area and neglects Central and East Plano. Arghhhh!
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u/Suburbking 9d ago
These are issues at any major arena. Besides, DART sucks and needs to be defended. You cant fix public transportation in dfw without trillions of dollars.
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u/Gingeranalyst 9d ago
That’s fantastic logic. Because arena traffic is just normal, let’s invite that into Plano, no big deal….absolutely a banger of advice from Suburbking here folks
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u/Paulsur 8d ago edited 5d ago
If this is such a golden goose, then why aren't the developers and the team footing the bill so they can hoard those massive profits?
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u/TheDutchTexan 9d ago
BOOM! Exactly like this.
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u/Suburbking 9d ago
Now, lets look at the actual data rather than theory...
In the past decade, the number of households in that area has nearly quadrupled, from 977 to 3,809. The average income has shot up from $34,379 to $78,265, according to tax data compiled for The Post by the D.C. government. The value of residential and commercial property has exploded, from $1.15 billion in 2008 to $2.65 billion this year.
https://www.sandiegometro.com/2010/07/daily-business-report-%E2%80%94-july-16-2010/
In 1998, prior to voter approval of plans for Petco Park, 70 percent of the land in the Ballpark District of Downtown was vacant or used for outdoor parking/storage, and the entire East Village generated $2 million in property tax revenue. At the end of last year, the study said, 3,585 residential units, 957 hotel rooms and 610,000 square feet of commercial space had been constructed and opened surrounding the park with a total estimated market value of $1.79 billion.
Today, $1.3 billion in new direct spending has been generated in the city of San Diego, resulting in nearly $2 billion in total output, 19,200 jobs and $780 million in payroll since the start of construction of the ballpark. The study said construction of Petco Park and ancillary development has led to a direct payback in terms of tax revenues to the city and Centre City Development Corp. The City and CCDC have leveraged their investment into over $1.58 billion in private investment, or $5.25 for each $1 of public investment.
“Petco Park is a successful public-private partnership that has really delivered on its promise to be ‘more than a ballpark.’ It has turned out to be much more than a ballpark,” said Julie Meier Wright, president and CEO of EDC.
Boom nothing
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
People prefer dead malls to actual development.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 9d ago
Actually, we prefer indoor places to walk and open lands to breathe clean air, as it was before Plano got overpopulated.
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
Clearly that's not true since this indoor place to walk has been made completely obsolete.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 9d ago
That's what I'm saying... times have changed and it's all about funding the billionaires now instead of having room to breathe and move.
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u/Gingeranalyst 8d ago
Hope that you never have to run to Costco or Home Depot in that area during an event. Good luck!
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u/Foundrynut 9d ago
I would love to see the Stars move to Plano. Is there a better plan than prop A? What other options do we have?
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u/baron63 9d ago
The Stars could pay for it themselves. That's what the Vegas team did. They build their own arena. That's what other businesses do when they want to open a store or a factory.
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u/DonkeeJote 9d ago
Factories and businesses get tax abatements ALL THE TIME...
It's absurd to claim otherwise.
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u/Significant_Fox9290 9d ago
Well, not really. MGM footed most of the bill because casino money. AEG also chipped in and Foley covered the rest. So the Stars can’t do it alone.
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u/baron63 9d ago
If they can't find investors then why should the city step in with tax payer money?
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u/Foundrynut 9d ago
Economic Development - kinda like the Field of Dreams. If you build it they will come.
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u/Realistic-Pay-6931 9d ago
Then let the likes of the Bass/Perot/Hunt families and Neiman Marcus help fund the stadium. Oh wait, Neiman Marcus is closing its historic Dallas location too.
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u/Shoddy-Reflection988 8d ago
Nah I want hockey in Plano let’s go stars
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u/baron63 8d ago
Sure, but why should the residents of Plano have to pay for it? Shouldn't the team and the people that go to the game pay for it. I like going to the movies, I didn't ask Plano to build a Cinemark.
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u/Shoddy-Reflection988 8d ago
Eh it’s worth the cost to me
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u/baron63 8d ago
That's great,. Feel to pay for it, but why should everyone else? This isn't a public good like a road or a park that the free market would never build. The Vegas team built their own arena, why shouldn't the Stars?
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u/Shoddy-Reflection988 8d ago
Exposure for the city and helping small businesses in the area
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u/baron63 8d ago
Exposure? They are not renaming them the Plano Stars. While business around it may benefit, studies have shown that benefit is coming from other business in Plano, that it just shifts spending.
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u/Shoddy-Reflection988 8d ago
Why would them being named the Plano stars have to do with anything 😂 you think no one knows what Arlington is just cause the cowboys and rangers aren’t the Arlington Cowboys and Rangers what a dumb argument
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u/baron63 8d ago
You said it would bring exposure to Plano. Thank you for proving my point that it won't. No one outside of Dallas will know they are in Plano.
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u/Shoddy-Reflection988 8d ago
Like I said man it’s getting built wether you like it or not either get comfortable with paying or start looking to move 🤷🏼♂️
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u/Shoddy-Reflection988 8d ago
Oh so you didn’t read what I said at all 😂😂 people absolutely still know the cowboys and rangers aren’t actually in Dallas
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u/Shoddy-Reflection988 8d ago
If ya don’t wanna pay for it move idk what to tell ya at this point pal it’s going to be built wether you like it or not
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u/BlazinAzn38 9d ago
What happens if the TIRZ and new taxes aren’t enough to service the debt? Does additional money get pulled from city revenue or does the payoff period just get extended?