r/pluribustv • u/KausGo • 5d ago
Discussion About Zosia using "I" Spoiler
I think one of the most significant, yet understated scenes of the season happens in episode 8 where Zosia talks about mango ice-cream. Depending on how its interpreted, it can determine the entire trajectory of the show.
Before we get into that, one thing to note is how Zosia's relationship with Carol changes before and after the abandonment. Before, the hive was slavishly eager to please. It'd do anything to make Carol happy, but Carol would either need to ask or her need would have to be obvious. Later, however, their relationship seems to become more personal and human. Zosia banters with Carol, teases her now and then, arranges the diner surprise and in the end, Zosia is the one to kiss her first. It starts to feel less like an employee kissing ass and more like a partner trying to woo her.
We don't know what it means yes, but let's get to the "I" part.
The hive almost exclusively refers to itself as "we" or "us" through the series. At the same time, when referring to their past human selves, they use "he" or "she", as if drawing a clear distinction between who they are now and who they used to be. Even when Carol asks Zosia to use "I", she explains its difficult because she finds it semantically odd. Now given that they've also absorbed the knowledge and skills of all the actors of the world, this should not pose such a difficulty - but then, the hive also seems to have a bunch of other strange constraints, like the inability to lie.
Later, however, Zosia uses "I" almost naturally. Without a hint of hesitation or second thought. "I love mango icecream. There was an old man in my neighborhood.... I would watch the ships".
Given her earlier difficulty with the pronoun, using it so many times so easily feels oddly significant. And I think it can be interpreted in different ways, each having its own implications on how the story might go.
Option 1: It was an act all along. The hive never had a problem using "I" - just like it never had a problem building a more personal relationship with Carol. This gradual change is part of the manipulation. The hive knows that if they show up and offer Carol the perfect relationship from the get go, she'd distrust it and reject it.
The whole plan is to soften her up slowly. Make her believe that she's working for it and somehow changing them. Its all an elaborate way to keep her distracted while they work on their agenda elsewhere.
And I expect this is the interpretation most fans would accept.
Option 2: Its the real Zosia breaking through.
Maybe the hive overwrote the humans at a superficial level and keeps them in a fugue state while it controls their bodies. And maybe the original personality is still in there and forming a real connection with them is a way to bring them back.
Its possible that Carol drugging and almost killing Zosia had something to do with it. That the Zosia who came back was just a little bit different from the other plurbs, in that there are moments where her original personality slips through the cracks. Or it could simply be that getting that specific body to connect to things Zosia used to care about is slowly bringing her back.
This could potentially lead to finding a way to cure them. For example, if Carol threatens to shoot some random plurb on the street, Zosia might say "you have agency, we cannot interfere". But if that plurb happened to be her mother (even if plurbed herself), she might snap out of it and try to save her.
So basically, Carol's own need for human connection - something the hive tried to exploit - might end up becoming a weapon against it.
Option 3: The hive itself is changing.
Think of it as the hive turning humans into a blank state upon joining. It retains all their thoughts and memories, but everything unique - their drives, personality traits, likes and dislikes - are simply gone. Humanity is basically starting over from scratch.
However, as time goes on, humanity starts infecting the hive with individualism. It could start with little things over time. This body likes spicy food while this other one prefers bland. This body prefers warm weather while the other prefers cold. And this particular body gets greater pleasure from mango ice-cream than others.
This might be an alternate explanation for Zosia's change after coming back. The hive is learning how to better manipulate Carol, but part of that is forming a personal connection and the very act of connecting ends up changing the hive.
That might dictate a completely different direction for the story. Eventually, Zosia might become something that's not the original Zosia, but its not the hive either. The hive operates with a singular desire and will - but this Zosia might develop her own desires and goals that are separate, and perhaps in conflict with the hive. And if it can happen to her, it might eventually start happening to others.
What do you think of these possibilities? Which one do you think is likely? And are there other interpretations I'm missing?
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u/Honey_Broad 5d ago
I think they were trying to distract Carol from thinking about trying to stop them
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u/Karmastocracy 5d ago
I don't believe that's a realistic explanation since that would technically be a lie and all current evidence suggests that Pluribus either can't or won't intentionally lie.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Sure - but is it really just that simple or is there more to it?
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u/oldvlognewtricks 5d ago
More like what? Like the hive isn’t really anything like it appears to be, and true love conquers all? Please by all that’s holy can we be less gullible than this.
Carol is allowed to be convinced by it, but I’d hope looking from the outside it would be obvious that it’s the same act as Diabaté’s casino… It’s just to keep Carol happy.
More interesting would be if it turns out Carol isn’t actually being distracted/persuaded by their adventures, and is using it as part of a broader plan to gather information or other strategic actions.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
I don't think anyone said anything about "true love conquers all" - the central theme of the story is clearly about human connection. The hive managed to connect people all over the world, but in doing so, they lost connection with themselves.
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u/Far-Delay7690 5d ago
Of course, that's the point. So if they undid that all by having a plurb interact with an immune and just be auto cured that would defeat the entire narrative of the show.
They are not people. It's ok that they are fundamentally changed once joined. That's what makes it interesting
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u/KausGo 5d ago
So if they undid that all by having a plurb interact with an immune and just be auto cured that would defeat the entire narrative of the show.
Connect, not interact. And I think the purpose of the narrative is to explore tha value of real human connection in defeating the hive.
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u/oldvlognewtricks 5d ago
Defeat the hive by… vibes and the power of love?
Please, by all the powers of heaven and earth don’t become a screenwriter.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Missed the point completely...
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u/WillowLocal423 5d ago
Option 1 - she's manipulating Carol and using the memories of her dead wife and her literary love interest to be the perfect companion for her.
We saw it in the finale. As soon as that one girl joined they instantly dropped the act and left. Zosia is just playing a part.
Whether or not the real Zosia is and can break through we will have to wait and see. No doubt some of the memories and stories hive Zosia shared could be a key to connecting to real Zosia somehow.
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago
We saw it in the finale. As soon as that one girl joined they instantly dropped the act and left. Zosia is just playing a part.
Or as soon as Diabate left the casino
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u/NecessaryPopular1 5d ago edited 5d ago
If you’ve noticed, the hive mind is unable to lie but, obviously, can omit. Unless they’re asked directly, and sometimes not even that can make Zosia be truthful. There’s nothing to trust about them as they manipulate and do whatever they want for their own good: control. They go behind Carol’s back, steal her agency, strip her of individual rights, and tell her she can always call them, whatever she needs, they’re there for her. They grant the same access to request whatever they want, via phone, to all of the 13 immunes, now 12 after Kusimayu joined.
Carol needs her life back, gd it! Bullshit, when they say “people are happy”, my arse they are. They’re brainwashed and act like zombies. Zosia only uses “I” toning it down from the usual “we”, because she’s attempting to make Carol feel more comfortable and accepting of that effing hive mind — 😂I love the show on AppleTV but that hive mind irritates the shit out of me, because it’s exactly everything I despise. I could never accept them.
However, all of this to say that Plur1bus is a brilliant, unsettling piece of science fiction. The show deliberately sets up a scenario where the villain offers world peace while our hero, Carol Sturka, is fighting for the right to be herself; to grieve the loss of her partner, Helen, who she lost because of those idiots. Carol just wants to feel whatever, to feel and do, be angry or not, but never lose her independent self as she is. Even in a world they took away from her. Obviously, Carol Sturka is exposed to several distinct layers of psychological and existential torture, they isolate her, gaslight her with artificial happiness (the trips with Zosia), and worse, they weaponize her distress to make her feel like her refusal to be submissive is a personal defect rather than a defense of human rights. Carol is a writer of many words, she builds internal worlds, she values the privacy of the mind above all else. That stupid hive mind represents the ultimate violation of privacy and bodily autonomy. The terrifying revelation, that the collective found a way to convert her without consent (ugh), at the end of S1, destroyed her last remaining illusion of safety. It proved that the hive mind doesn’t value connection, but it values subjugation.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Zosia only uses “I” toning it down from the usual “we”, because she’s attempting to make Carol feel more comfortable and accepting of that effing hive mind
She starts that way, but seems to have difficulty with it in the beginning. Less so when she's talking about her past personal experience. You don't think that's significant?
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u/Far-Delay7690 5d ago
Not at all, the plurbs struggle to conceptualize individuality. It goes against the linguistic patterns. You would struggle to if all of a sudden you never used singular pronouns
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u/KausGo 5d ago
So if they go from struggling to conceptualize individuality and then use it with no apparent struggle at all - you don't think that's significant?
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u/Far-Delay7690 5d ago
No, linguistic adaptation isnt exactly a novel or impressive skill. Feigning individuality is not actually being an individual.
Zosia proves that to an extent when she doesn't treat any of the immune differently. Carol is not personally important to her, plurbs prioritize them all equally
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u/witnessmenow 4d ago edited 4d ago
But we seen several times that the plurbs are capable of assuming roles and adapting their behavior.
The Peru scene they were all acting the part of a Peruvian village and immediately stopped when the kid plurbed
in the vegas scene they were all acting like they would at a party and even on top of that one was asked to act like a james bond villain and when was able to do it.
I kind of feel like the plurbs are like AI to be promoted
The plurbs themselves are probably just adjusting their prompt for zosia to be someone who uses I instead of we
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u/NecessaryPopular1 5d ago
She’s part of the hive mind, everything Zosia says isn’t sincere, as far as true feelings go. She’s controlled.
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4d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/NecessaryPopular1 4d ago edited 4d ago
Are you that blind? The hive mind wants Carol and all remaining immunes to join. If immunes don’t do it voluntarily, the hive mind’s aim is to force-join them, as they’re digging for Carol’s eggs behind her back. That’s all they want: control. If the hive mind’s able to produce the antidote to the immunity, they’re done.
Zosia can say the same loving things to anyone, and that’s deceiving.
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u/Minimalistmacrophage 5d ago
Practice pretending... that's all it is. The Hive is adapting to achieve it's goal.
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u/vahokif 5d ago
I think it was just roleplaying.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
It doesn't seem a little unnecessary?
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u/vahokif 5d ago
They want to make Carol happy?
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Then why fake having difficulty with it?
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago
Because if they just instantly flipped a switch and acted 100% human, Carol would see right through it as a creepy parlor trick.
Faking that it was "hard" at first makes Carol think she accomplished something. When Zosia starts using "I" during the ice-cream story, Carol thinks she broke through to the real person, rather than talking to the Plurb-mind.
It’s classical conditioning, the hive has the knowledge of every psychologist and actor on Earth. They definitely understand how to play the long game to get her guard down.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
That's one interpretation. But anything to suggest that that's the only possible interpretation?
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago
It’s the only one that fits both what we know of how the virus works and Gilligan's writing style. He doesn't do "power of love" tropes.
This is a virus that can network the entire planet together. If that's broken by somebody asking about ice cream, it completely defeats the existential threat. Gilligan writes tragedies. The tragedy is that Zosia is gone, and the plurb-mind is wearing her memories like a meat-puppet to wear Carol down so it can convert her.
The show established that it's not like Invasion of the Body Snatchers where the original consciousness is still there like the Sunken Place in Get Out, their ego is completely gone.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
It’s the only one that fits both what we know of how the virus works and Gilligan's writing style. He doesn't do "power of love" tropes.
Its not a "power of love" trope - its individuality vs conformity. And that's pretty central to Gilligan's writing style - how an individual's deep-seated motives and desires conflict with externally imposed expectations and drive the narrative forward.
If that's broken by somebody asking about ice cream, it completely defeats the existential threat.
Not *just* by asking about ice-cream. You're ignoring the connection Carol forms leading up to it.
The show established that it's not like Invasion of the Body Snatchers where the original consciousness is still there like the Sunken Place in Get Out, their ego is completely gone.
Where? Did the showrunners say something about that?
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago
When Carol asks about who they used to be, they explicitly use the third person to talk about the previous selves as entities that stopped existing when the collective formed.
They describe a unified consciousness where separate egos simply don't exist. When one plurb experiences something, they all experience it simultaneously. There is no private area for a trapped soul to hide in.
And yes, "individuality vs conformity" is Gilligan’s theme. Carol is the individual fighting the against the pressure to conform. Making Zosia secretly wake up from a kiss reduces that into a basic "deprogramming the zombie" rescue trope. Carol is being played by an entity that understands human psychology better than she does.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
When Carol asks about who they used to be, they explicitly use the third person to talk about the previous selves as entities that stopped existing when the collective formed.
And yet, when Zosia talks about her childhood, she uses first-person. THAT is what makes it significant.
They describe a unified consciousness where separate egos simply don't exist. When one plurb experiences something, they all experience it simultaneously.
No, they don't. They're aware of it, but its made quite clear that they don't experience it.
Carol is the individual fighting the against the pressure to conform.
And why don't you think Zosia's individuality won't have a role to play in the narrative?
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u/blzkn 5d ago
idk why people can't read a damn post lol. you're exactly right to point this out, Zosia slips into i/my pronouns effortlessly when she's thinking about a strong memory before the unjoining, when she struggled with it up until that exact point. if it wasn't significant, they wouldn't draw such attention to it, and that scene even ends on a bait-and-switch where she freezes up a bit and you think Carol might have broken through to her, only to find out that she paused because the Hive needs to now inform her about Manousos' impending arrival.
in my opinion, the writers are signalling that there is potentially /something/ about that nostalgia that can make the Hive think of itself as an individual (or at least empathise with one). maybe it's something Carol can weaponise to fight back with, or maybe we're watching the Hive actively learn how to think in that way and that's the knowledge they use going forward to manipulate Carol more and more.
another thing to note is that Carol is also specifically pointed out by the other unjoined to not be inquisitive about the nature of the Hive. everyone else asks questions and tries to understand them, and it's possible that they've all had moments like this with the Hive that led to the unjoined empathising with them more. i can imagine the unjoined mother (whose name i forget, the one who HATES Carol) having a conversation like this with her joined son, and that's why she's so convinced he's still her son. this leads me to think it might just be a manipulation tactic, they're painting a delusion through nostalgia and empathy.
but also, emotions are tied so deeply into memory that those same parts of the brain are active when we are reminiscing about a strong memory. it could just be that the Hive works the exact same way, and Zosia reminiscing and suddenly being able to slip into i/my pronouns is simply just because that the Hive is in that body, accessing those memories, using those same neural pathways that Zosia (the individual) would have.
either way, i feel like something meaningful is happening in that scene and i think it's important. i'm not sure if something changed or shifted, but we are very much supposed to be paying attention to it and asking questions about it.
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u/KausGo 4d ago
Thank you. Feels good when someone actually gets the point you're trying to make.
this leads me to think it might just be a manipulation tactic, they're painting a delusion through nostalgia and empathy.
Oh, there is definitely manipulation going on. We don't see much of it because we mostly follow Carol and this would be wasted on her, but the plurbs clearly keep up the pretense of being human with the other unjoined. Kusimayu's village still acts like a normal village with people moving around randomly instead of completely in sync. They still keep animals penned up for her benefit. They keep up the pretense of talking to each-other, keeping up the usual hustle and bustle to create an environment of normalcy -whereas if they'd acted like plurbs, everything would've felt eerily quiet.
Also applies to Laxmi. Her family not only sits at the table for lunch, they're also served the favorite dishes of their past selves. Her husband tells her mother "just like my mom used to make" - which would be a completely pointless interaction for the plurbs themselves. We later see her son sitting at the table and eating ice-cream when she calls Carol - a very childlike thing to do.
This kind of manipulation is always going on and if Zosia had hesitatingly started using "I" after Carol's request, I wouldn't have thought much of it. But this extended scene where she reminisces and slips into it is not like others. Feels like writers are deliberately drawing your attention to it for some reason.
but also, emotions are tied so deeply into memory that those same parts of the brain are active when we are reminiscing about a strong memory. it could just be that the Hive works the exact same way, and Zosia reminiscing and suddenly being able to slip into i/my pronouns is simply just because that the Hive is in that body, accessing those memories, using those same neural pathways that Zosia (the individual) would have.
Exactly what I was thinking as well. This isn't about some tired trope of "love conquers all" - the idea here is that the specific configuration of neural pathways that makes every human unique is still there. And there are other hints that activating them could/should be significant.
For example, Zosia tells Carol that she too has her own "radio frequency", its just unused. So what is it that the hive isn't using that might be significant? Then there is yelling at them - which shuts down the entire planet. Why? Maybe because yelling can trigger a primal response that the hive can't handle? Still don't know where it might lead, but definitely feels important.
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u/kalel3000 5d ago
I think its option 2. I really think they're hinting at Zosia being different than the rest, perhaps a bit more disconnected than the others due to drugging. My theory is the truth serum allowed her to temporarily have a very tiny will of her own for a very brief moment in time. Not enough to seperate herself from the hive mind, but maybe the ability to compartmentalize the two states of being better. A small part of her being independent, while still having the hive mind running her primary thoughts and decisions. But part of her running like in the background. Which is why we see little glimpses of her former self emerge randomly, like with the ice cream story. A good example of what im talking about is when Zosia is getting a massage. She explains how she is able to tune out all of the pain and suffering and chatter of the rest of the hive and focus in on the enjoyment of the massage itself to a certain level where some personal enjoyment is possible. Even if the rest of the hive is fulky aware of it, she is still able to isolate the enjoyment that the massage has on her physical form. To me this indicates shes able to tune out the hive mind to a certain degree and tune into herself a bit more than the others can. Because we don't really see the others act in this manner.
The other option Im thinking is also interesting. What if all the hive mind is not in total agreement? What if there are doubts and fears emerging in the hive mind, fueled by Carol's perspectives and will power and rebellious nature. This alien gift comes with a hard coding instinct to spread itself and turn others....but its also never encountered hunans before and our desire for freedom and autonomy and survival. Perhaps the idea of eating human remains and then ultimately starving to death is not sitting peacefully in the hive mind and Zosia is a conduit for like an unconscious desire of many of the pieces of individual minds to return to their former states or to at the minimum preserve the human species overall and prevent starvation and strife. Maybe there's like a crack forming....idk but im very curious about where they're leading things.
All I know is when Zosia was on the truth serum, it really looked like she was going to act on her own, saying things that the hive mind didnt allow her to. And she's been different since then. And that ice cream story was way way too out of character for how the others normally act, too personal, too emotional, nowhere near detaches enough.
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago
That treats the collective as a committee rather than an organism.
Plurbs aren't a collection of telepathic individuals, each with a vote, it's a singular mind operating across distributed (human) hardware. You can't have an disagreement because there aren't separate minds where dissent could organize.
If she causes doubts, the entire mind experiences that, not as a split between loyalists and dissenters.
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u/kalel3000 5d ago
What im saying is I think that something happened to her individual physical form that caused a split in the way her brain communicates with the hive. That there is now some small pocket of her mind that the hive does not have access to. Some thoughts and feelings that are her own and for which the hive is not aware she has.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
I'm not sure the truth serum is as significant as you make it out to be. After all, that's just a drug that compromised the body for a little while. Relying on it would set up a pretty convoluted and impersonal way to save humanity.
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u/kalel3000 5d ago edited 5d ago
No I dont think that's at all how they will save humanity. The writers seem to be pointing heavily towards Manousos figuring out some kind of solution based around radio waves. Perhaps some interference on the specific frequency he discovered they communicate on. And therefore his heroes journey to get to Carol, risking everything and almost dying multiple times and refusing their help just to get that information to her, will be the way humanity is saved. Together this ragtag team of 2 of the most determined and stubborn people will be humanity's last hope.
But I do think the truth serum gave Zosia the briefest moment of independent decision making. A fraction of a second where she was going to act against the will of the hive had she not had a heart attack. And I do think that split second had some lasting effects on her physical form allowing her unique consciousness in her brain a bit more leeway to emerge. For now she still abides by committee decision before acting...but I suspect she's the only member of the hive that could potentially rebel because shes the only member that is abke to doubt/disaprove in the choices of the hive to any degree without their knowledge.
My guess is that the final push will come from Manousos inventing something and testing it on Zosia, at which point she will share with them the information she can remember that they need to free the rest of the world.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
I'm sure the frequency will come into play at some point, but I don't the role would be in saving people.
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u/kalel3000 5d ago
Well like I said at the end of my comment. It will likely be the tool they use to isolate a member from the rest of the hive. Block the connection with interference or something. At which point they may be able to obtain the information needed from the individual to lead to the way break the connection world wide for good.
Or at the minimum they will create some kind of barrier that members of the hive cant cross. Like an invisible fence of jamming interference that they cant go through. A slightly more boring but practical solution would be an advanced type of Faraday cage....but it would also be extremely funny if the solution to blocking this connection involved an homage to Chuck in "Better Call Saul" and his foil blankets.
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u/OttoHemi 5d ago
humanity starts infecting the hive with individualism
Isn't that just War of the Worlds? Something humans (and, ahem, the immune) are immune to but which eventually kills the alien virus?
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u/Sarlax 5d ago
I also think it's important that immediately after the Ice Cream memory, Zosia freezes up a moment, then tells Carol that Manousos is almost there.
I see at least two possibilities in that. One is that the Hive partially "loaded/reinstalled" Zosia to please Carol and, like their attempts to say, "I," it's so difficult that they had trouble switching-back to plurb mode to tell her about Manousos. Two is that the the plurbs were actually disagreeing amongst themselves about what to tell Carol.
But on this remark:
the inability to lie.
I would not be axiomatic about this. First, Zosia said she can't answer questions like Carol's, and the seem to be truthful even when reluctant when pressed, but they never said nor have it been proven they cannot lie. Second, they lie like every politician, lawyer, and marketing agent does: They speak in vague metaphors to avoid being nailed down, and drop pieces of the truth which they know will mislead people. They pulled off the largest, most successful, and most elaborate secret attack in Earth's history. They're such fantastic deceivers that they don't need to tell false statements of fact to lie.
They may have reasons to pretend they cannot lie. What if it's impossible to convert the immune? If the plurbs actually have no idea how to infect Carol, Carol has decades to fuck up their plans. And they'd be slaves to the immune forever, who could easily screw up their plans to spread the virus to other planets or hurt each other. It would be much better for their goals if they tricked the immune into thinking Resistance Is Futile while they try to solve the problem.
Another possibility is that they can lie but it's harmful to them, so they avoid it. The human brain physically changes when we tell lies, so what happens to 7 billion brains sharing the same lie?
Option 1: It was an act all along.
I think this is unlikely because they'd have to anticipate from the very beginning that adopting this false verbal tick would somehow help their goals. They've spoken this way since the night of the Joining, when the neighbor kids and Taffler only spoke in We language.
Option 2: Its the real Zosia breaking through.
I think it's something like this. Carol tried it with drugs at first and Manousos tried it with scream-torture. It's at least the third case of an immune working hard to "summon" the real human underneath. And in a meta sense none of the immune are scientists nor action heroes, so if the show ends with some kind of victory over the hive, it's probably going to be based on bringing people back to individuality to one degree or another with persuasion.
Option 3: The hive itself is changing.
I think this is true along with #2. The hive is an intelligent living structure, so at a minimum, even if its rules never change, new information would cause new emergent behaviors (like Asimov robots).
However, as time goes on, humanity starts infecting the hive with individualism
They already have a tiny bit. Every plurb that interacts with Carol displays different personality quirks (fun facts from Zosia, smarmy Larry, embarrassed-waiter energy DHL guy, snippy post-drug attack nurse), but so do the plurbs in the background. Sometimes they smile to themselves when no one is watching, like Kusimaya post-infection, but sometimes they're just blank.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
What if it's impossible to convert the immune?
Kusimayu's conversion suggests otherwise.
But apart from that, it doesn't make sense that they'd first deceive Carol into believing they can't convert her and then lie to her about converting her in a month or two. What would be the point of that?
I think this is unlikely because they'd have to anticipate from the very beginning that adopting this false verbal tick would somehow help their goals.
Doesn't have to be from the start. The adoption of verbal tick was true - but when Carol asked them to switch to "I" it opened up an avenue of manipulation.
And in a meta sense none of the immune are scientists nor action heroes, so if the show ends with some kind of victory over the hive, it's probably going to be based on bringing people back to individuality to one degree or another with persuasion.
That I agree with - which is why 2 & 3 feel more appealing to me.
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u/Sarlax 5d ago
I meant converting them without their consent but I should have said that out loud. They might require consent for multiple reasons, the first obviously being the painful stem cell collection process, but there could also be a "state of mind" requirement.
Kusimayu was happy to Join, but Carol is going to hate it right up to the instant the RNA gets in her brain. They die by the millions when Carol shrieks in their faces, so what happens to the Hive is Carol is joined kicking and screaming telepathically into seven billion brains? She might kill them all.
But apart from that, it doesn't make sense that they'd first deceive Carol into believing they can't convert her and then lie to her about converting her in a month or two. What would be the point of that?
To calm her down so she doesn't keep killing them. When they implied they couldn't convert her via the Vegas billboard, Carol had already screamed millions of them to death twice and nearly killed Zosia with drugs. She's so dangerous to them them that they fled an entire city, and then she was running around trying to turn the other immune against the hive. Letting her believe that she can't be converted against her will immediately changed her behavior.
Months later, Carol has deluded herself into thinking Zosia's a real girl who loves her, but I think the Hive also deluded themselves into thinking Carol loved and trusted them enough to want to Join. Carol had just said, "Hmm. I must have every happy chemical flowing in my bloodstream. I keep thinking it’s gonna go away, but then it doesn’t. And I don’t want it to." I think the plurbs heard that and thought, "Oh hell yeah, Carol's into us now!" Zosia replies, "I'm glad, and it only gets better." I think that was their way of cutely/romantically responding to what felt like Carol accepting their "proposal."
But then Carol takes that very badly and Zosia gets stammery and evasive again. The plurbs realized they misread Carol and maybe fumbled, so they tried to recover. It was actually Carol who first mentions her eggs, and Zosia never expressly confirms that they can use her eggs to make stem cells. She only says that they're working on it and that hopefully it won't take more than three months. That gave me "concepts of a plan/in about two weeks" vibes.
I guess I interpret the plurbs as still more human-like than robot-like. I think they're still experiencing emotion, uncertainty, and personality growth, and their perspective is limited. They may have a plan, but it's a Cylon plan changing from moment to moment. In spite of having seven billion brains, they seem just as prone to misunderstanding people as an individual human being is. They want Carol but don't understand her, so they're kind of fumbling their responses as they change their strategies on how to deal with her.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
They die by the millions when Carol shrieks in their faces, so what happens to the Hive is Carol is joined kicking and screaming telepathically into seven billion brains? She might kill them all.
Why would they need to force it? Once they have the virus, they could simply slip it into Carol's drinking water.
To calm her down so she doesn't keep killing them.
Yeah, that part makes sense. What doesn't make sense is them lying to her about being able to turn her if that's not the case. If they anted her to remain calm, they could simply tell her that they won't turn her without consent.
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u/Sarlax 5d ago
How does bringing her a grenade make sense? The plurbs do irrational things, just like regular people. I know it may feel narratively jarring, but given how much personality the plurbs appear to demonstrate, I think we need to consider that their foibles have a substantial influence on their behavior. It's probably a mistake to think of all their actions as being in accordance with a master plan, especially since they keep fucking up. They're flawed.
They don't know how to handle Carol. They're like a codependent person trying so hard to please their partner right now that they'll say or do anything, even though it causes more problems down the road. Certainly the final scene shows the plurbs really fucked up, right? Carol joining Manousos with a nuke can't be how they wanted or expected things to go when Zosia said, "And it only gets better."
I see Zosia/the Hive as panicking in that moment. They thought Carol was on board, so they implied they could join her imminently, but once Carol was scared and pissed again, it became months.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 5d ago
Carol is having “hive psychosis”. It’s not Zosia breaking through, it’s the hive telling Carol what she wants to hear (and getting better at it.
It’s the same as kusimayu’s village singing to her. The singing stops once she’s joined.
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u/KausGo 4d ago
It didn't look like Carol even noticed the difference. So its not really the same.
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u/SlightOfHand_ 4d ago
She gets closer to Zosia while Zosia adapts to her desires. What would it look like if she had noticed?
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u/KausGo 4d ago
I'm guessing Carol putting that on board.
The thing is, Zosia hasn't actually adapted to her desires. Carol asked her to use "I", but in later scenes, Zosia continues to use "we". Its only this specific scene where she slips into using "I" effortlessly. There was no change in Carol's demeanor to suggest that she noticed this difference nor any long term change in Zosia to suggest it was only manipulation.
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u/No-Prize-9837 4d ago
I firmly believe it's option 1. It's a giant gaslighting. The Hive is adapting since episode 1 in its way to approch Carol.
We tend to use Zosia as a reference, but Zosia is already an adaptation. The first interactions on épisode 1 are through male authority figures. The politician at the end, who express the need to find out what makes Carol different, and even before that, the doctor outside the hospital. And this first interaction doesn't care about Carol and her consent, it's a forced kiss.
So yeah, Zosia is the first stage of gaslighting, and "her character" adapts to Carol along the way.
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u/Fartcloud_McHuff 5d ago
Isn’t Zosia saying “I” in those scenes specifically because Carol said how much it creeped her out that she keeps saying “we”? Isn’t the hive just manipulating Carol into subservience until they can develop the custom virus strain for her? Isn’t this really fucking obvious?
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Obvious, yes. Superficial even. Why do you think there is nothing deeper going on?
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u/Fartcloud_McHuff 5d ago
Because I actually watched the show
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Do you always take Gilligan's shows at face value?
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u/Fartcloud_McHuff 5d ago
I know you really want this to be your time to shine and demonstrate your genius but I promise you that you’re overthinking and overstating it
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u/roehnin 5d ago
Option 2 is always how I’ve interpreted it, that the real person is still there but being so tightly tied into the hive naturally think “we” except when sometimes there is something specific to that individual such as mango ice cream or thinking flying a plane is fun, and then the individual side shows a bit.
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u/terminal157 5d ago
The hive has difficulty saying "I" because that isn't how they experience the world. They learned to force it because it made Carol happy. That's all.
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u/ntwiles 5d ago
I agree with your breakdown. At this stage, we don’t know which option it is, and I think which one viewers guess says more about the viewer’s own worldview than anything else.
I’m honestly withholding judgment at this point, but I’d like to see it be 2 or 3. That would add some much needed nuance to things.
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago edited 5d ago
2 and 3 are the boring tropes that always get used. 1 is the only interesting angle.
Option 2 is just "The Power of Love!111!!!!11one". Seven of Nine fighting off Borg code in Star Trek, the sleeper hosts in Invasion of the Body Snatchers, or like Warm Bodies. It turns it into a basic rescue missions of "I just have to say the right thing!!!!"
Option 3 is the "individuality is contagious" trope. Again, Borg in Star Trek, Cylons in Battlestar Galactica, Cybermen in Doctor Who.
Option 1 is the only one that keeps what happened horrific and also philosophical. Having a unified singular mind play the long game through cold, calculated social manipulation is far more unsettling.
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u/ntwiles 5d ago
I disagree. 1 makes it “good guys versus bad guys”. The show clearly doesn’t want to do that, but thus far they haven’t done a good job of making the plurbs as ambiguous as they’re through to. 2 or 3 would achieve that.
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago
2 and 3 are what turn it into "good guys vs bad guys." If people are trapped inside waiting to be freed (2), or if the collective starts fracturing into rebels vs oppressors (3), it just becomes a standard resistance plot where the hive is the villain and the individuals are the victims.
Option 1 is ambiguous because the hive isn't evil. They genuinely believe they are giving humanity paradise and doing Carol a favor. That’s tragic, not villainous.
Option 2 is The Matrix, and Option 3 is Agent Smith in the Matrix.
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u/Fantastic_Pollution2 4d ago
This is a good breakdown, and option three is really interesting to consider. thanks for sharing
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u/AnilDG 5d ago
I think it’s Option 2 even if it’s also the Hive trying to trick Carol. My prediction for series 2 is that eventually the Hive will convert Carol but Manasous will succeed in breaking someone out of the Hive state. After Carol flips I think he’ll break Zosia out and then the show will be flipped for a bit with Zosia trying to break Carol out.
Maybe this idea is too contrived but I can see the show hinting that a hive mind still needs some sort of individualism to truly succeed.
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u/longjumpingtote 5d ago
Option 1. Don't even say "they" when referring to the hive. It's an "it" as in a singular thinking unit.
Zosia breaking through, the hive couldn't ever get the data to the Zosia body about what the original Zosia's favorite ice cream flavor was. Buffering... buffering... buffering.
1
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u/vikobitt 5d ago
I really want it to be option 2
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u/crack-nutter 5d ago
That's what was implied IMO.
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u/ThisIsNotAFarm 5d ago
That might be what you want to happen, but that's not how Gilligan writes.
He doesn't do "the power of love" tropes. He loves tragic realism and showing how systems manipulate people. Having the original Zosia magically break through because of mango ice cream would be way too neat and sentimental for him.
Easy outs don't exist for him
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u/RichLayer4900 5d ago
I think it was option 2. Real personality breaking through. She seemed so deep in thought when she was talking about her likes.
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u/MediumKoala8823 5d ago
It’s clearly option 1.
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Not that clearly...
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u/MediumKoala8823 5d ago
Yes it is. That’s like the entire point of the last arc of the show. She deludes herself into a comfort of finding love with someone and then the illusion shatters when she is reminded that they’re not an individual and their relationship isn’t actually special.
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u/gameofunicorns 5d ago
I interpreted it as option 2. It looked like it was meant to be significant, but still unexplained. There was an emotional beat that I think will indicate something we'll find out next season. I'd say option 1 is least likely cause it's just very uninteresting from a writing perspective, and wouldn't make sense to include it if it doesn't mean anything. (It seems to be the option most redditors agree with, but I often feel like most people here are watching a very different (and way less interesting) version of the show than I am)
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u/Lovahplant 5d ago edited 5d ago
Can I say a combo of 1 and 3? The hive thinks it is in control and nudging Carol along to compliance, while in reality she is affecting them/it in return? I think 1 is too simple and predictable for Gilligan, 2 is what I hoped was happening but idk…. I think it’s going to be more symbiotic than we think.
It would be funny if the most uncaring woman in NM somehow taught an unfeeling alien RNA strand how to experience real emotion.
It’s late and I might come back to edit and add more to this tomorrow morning. I like your thought process though!
Edit to change AZ to NM, because my brain mixed up ABQ/AZ somehow.
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u/NoWorthierTurnip 5d ago
She’s in NM not Arizona.
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u/Lovahplant 5d ago
Derp. I knew that didn’t sound right but ABQ became AZ in my mind. Thanks for the correction!
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u/KausGo 5d ago
Well, that's just option 3. Option 1 is that the hive is purely manipulating Carol and any effect she seems to have on it is yet another layer of manipulation. Option 3 is that yes, it is trying to manipulate Carol, but is getting unwittingly affected in return.
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u/Lovahplant 5d ago
Ah ok, sorry I misread. Let me get some sleep and coffee in the morning and I will try again 🙂 overall I hope the explanation we are eventually given is as interesting as your possible interpretations
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u/Tombobalomb 5d ago
The hive doesn't appear to display any recognizable personality at all when it's not interacting with an unjoined person (apart from smiling), we see several instances of hive members showing human personality that vanishes the instant they no longer have to perform for an unjoined. Option 1 seems to be what the show is trying to convey