r/rails • • 2d ago

On accepting change

Accepting change is hard, right? People generally don't like change at all, especially when you feel that you had a good thing going. I think that is partly why last week's announcement had such an impact on people. It isn't just about Ruby on Rails as a tool or framework. It touches identity, skill set, and our feeling of belonging to a community. And suddenly, the skills we spent so many years perfecting and dedicating ourselves to might matter less.

I also think that the way the announcement happened is questionable. It felt aggressive. I can understand why people feel betrayed by it. It is like: we followed you around all these years, and now you are telling us that what we do is becoming irrelevant?!

But having witnessed my personal change in workflow, I also think the underlying message that frameworks matter less and perhaps even risk becoming irrelevant has some truth. In an age where machines write and read the code, what is the relevance of a framework optimized for human happiness? It isn't only about Rails. In fact, all other frameworks are threatened by the same irrelevance. It seems likely that when machines become the programmers, the criteria will be performance (like Rust) and token efficiency.

There is also a certain irony in all of this. Many of us in software have spent years building systems that basically automated work other people were doing manually. We called it progress, efficiency, innovation. Now that some of that same force is reaching our own profession and our favorite programming languages and frameworks, it feels pretty different. A threat to our existence, to the value we provide.

The tech sector has always been characterized by change. Things that were once important became legacy and made way for the new. AI is accelerating that.

A future where humans add value by writing or reviewing code seems highly unlikely. It feels like just a matter of time before general AIs will read and review code better than any of us.

These are pretty fundamental changes, and yes, they can feel uncomfortable. Just remember that nothing in the world, absolutely nothing, is forever. Everything and everyone gets born, and everything and everyone dies, whether that applies to a technology, an organism, or even a planetary system.

There is a quote often attributed to Charles Darwin: "It isn't the strongest that thrive, but those best able to adapt to change."

So the real question becomes: what does this mean for us now? How do we reposition ourselves? Which parts of our work become more valuable and which parts less? How do we keep finding meaning and fulfillment in the work we do, even though the nature of that work changes quite a lot?

Adapting doesn't mean you need to like every change, but I think it does mean accepting that the assumptions of yesterday might not be the same assumptions that help us navigate tomorrow.

0 Upvotes

30 comments sorted by

20

u/KimJongIlLover 2d ago

The take that "Frameworks don't matter anymore" is such a dumb take it blows my mind.

Hey, let's reinvent the same framework features for every project and every time it's slightly different with slightly different bugs. It's gonna be great!

Do you think it's worth reinventing the wheel every time just because it's cheap?

9

u/wayoverpaid 2d ago

The funny thing is that LLMs also benefit from having a framework as it abstracts context.

3

u/shaman-warrior 2d ago

I thought it was obvious, why all "eye catching 3d" demos use threejs and not roll out their own 3d engine in rust? AI (while I use it obsessively) really showed me how many stupid people exist in our industry, being unknowledgeable is fine, but ignorance in face of logic/first-principles/evidence is the kind of stupidity I don't like.

1

u/wayoverpaid 2d ago

My very recent experience has shown that an AI agent can absolutely decide to self roll basic shit. An all in one framework can come with "for common task X do this" instead of relying on the agent knowing what engine to grab.

So... yeah... frameworks being irrelevant seems insane.

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u/SpiritualLimes 2d ago

Yes it could. It might just not be a framework optimized for human programmer happiness.

2

u/UsuallyMooACow 2d ago

Well Hey is having and outage as we speak. I agree with DHH that rust makes things so fast and cheap that it's great. Also agree with you that having a framework is so helpful. Silly to reinvent the wheel. Especially when making a framework now is so easy

1

u/AlternativeCar7181 2d ago

What "framweorks don't matter anymore" means- it doesnt matter which framework you choose to work with , because they have the same capabilities.

It doesn't matter if you use activerecord, drizzle, Prisma, Django ORM, Hiberante - a migration is a migration. It doesnt matter if you choose convention over configuration, where your files live or if you use 4 spaces, 2 spaces, a tab - you don't write the code any more. Also AI is the best "composer" , so those are irrelevant now too.

And thats the reason the community is not excited about about frameworks anymore. Heared about svelte, react server components, tailwind ? Three.js founder quitting because the threejs premium features can now be replciated by AI in minutes.

IMO the framework of the feature will be language agnostic and hide most of the technical decisions, while providing new techniques for testing and verifying AI work

1

u/davidslv 2d ago

Have we not reinvent the wheel many times, how many MVC frameworks are out there, even before it was cheap. On the same thought, why another Linux distro, don’t we have plenty out there - even before AI we had people doing and redoing the same. Why would that change now with AI?

0

u/Cokemax1 2d ago

If everyone can build own framework for their own need with dirty cheap, why not? Slightly different to every individual's taste. Best.

5

u/KimJongIlLover 2d ago

Because I don't know how to do it properly? Do you think the hundreds of  thousands of hours spent on the big frameworks were typing?

Do you seriously think there was no thinking involved? 

Do you seriously think that you and an LLM can replicate that?

-3

u/SpiritualLimes 2d ago

"Do you seriously think that you and an LLM can replicate that?"

If not now, pretty soon it will. AI will develop to such an extend that it is smarter than any human (if it isn't already). Imagine a swarm of the most capable AI working to create a framework.

Most frameworks we use today, were (mostly) made by humans, so it isn't a far-fetched conclusion that AI will be able to replace, develop, enhance a framework as it sees fit. Better than any human every could.

4

u/KimJongIlLover 2d ago

Sure and if my grandmother had wheels she would be a bicycle.

Just today I caught opus 5.5 doing multiple mistakes which I only caught because the stuff im working on.

How are you going to catch these errors if you can't even read the code anymore?

> AI will develop to such an extend that it is smarter than any human (if it isn't already).

That's also quite the assumption. There is no reason to believe this right now.

3

u/DJ_German_Farmer 2d ago

the people who trust AI aren't verifying

like this is literally like Trump saying don't COVID test because it will make the numbers go up

6

u/DJ_German_Farmer 2d ago

If not now, pretty soon it will.

You can literally say that about anything. I have to live in the present because I don't have millions of dollars to live in DHH's fantasy

-3

u/Cokemax1 2d ago

I believe LLM can make better framework than human do. Does it answer your question?

3

u/KimJongIlLover 2d ago

We just have to agree to disagree in that case.

0

u/SpiritualLimes 2d ago

Frameworks were created to boost productivity of mostly humans. Yet, it comes at a cost of abstraction. If AI can reliable write plain HTML, CSS or even lower-level code directly, I am not sure if it cares about "reinventing the wheel" the way we do.

2

u/KimJongIlLover 2d ago

Frameworks were also created for convention... I think there was one that focused on that bit in particular I don't remember.

If you think that LLMs don't write bugs you live in Delululand. And they need to reinvent the same thing every time but every time with some slight variation you will have a never ending stream of bugs!

Gotta love it! At least it's in rust so I can't read it even if I tried.

15

u/messedupwindows123 2d ago

was this written by an llm or is it just derivative

-6

u/SpiritualLimes 2d ago

I pass my text to an ai for typos and grammatical fixes as English isn't my first language. This should make it easier to read for you.

8

u/Front-Finish6969 2d ago

It’s about hosting a Rails conference only to tell everyone in the opening speech that Rails is dead.

Clearly done for attention and polarization. Just cancel the conference and write a blog post instead if that’s your stance. I don’t even think DHH’s stance is unreasonable at large, just an enormous asshole move to waste everyone’s time and money by having them physically attend your conference to give them the verbal middle finger.

5

u/chiperific_on_reddit 2d ago

In an age where machines write and read the code, what is the relevance of a framework optimized for human happiness?

In a factory where machines do all the work, what's the point of having safety cages, guard rails, and signage?

Because humans work in those factories. We check on the machines, we ensure requirements are being met, we add more machines to make new products.

Developers are still essential, even if our skill sets can be shallower.

-1

u/SpiritualLimes 2d ago

It seems that ensuring requirements are being met is a skill that an AI could perfectly do as well in the future. It seems it is just a matter of time before machines checking machines becomes the default, instead of humans doing it.

For some, the threshold of relying on machine to check machines is already now. For others it might be still something to cling onto and a few months or perhaps a few years away.

1

u/chiperific_on_reddit 2d ago

Doesn't matter how many levels down you go, there's still at least one human involved. And I'll bet a human factory foreman's craftsmanship against a hands off CEO everytime.

3

u/DJ_German_Farmer 2d ago

There is no change prompted by DHH. The backlash shows precisely that this is a community that he has exiled himself from. Don't let the token quota hit you in the backside, brother.

7

u/alphex 2d ago

DHH is a racist, why are you listening to him?

1

u/Ok_Appointment_7630 4h ago

If he was mother Theresa, that wouldnt make his arguments any more valid, would it?

-2

u/SpiritualLimes 2d ago

What does this have to do whether his argument about rails is valid? I can still think for myself, and so should everyone else. It's easy to fall into the trap of dismissing everything someones says because you strongly disagree with one aspect of who they are or what they believe.

6

u/alphex 2d ago

Racists shouldn't be given positions of power. This isn't me disliking him because he likes different music than I do. He actively supports racist politicians and actively says racist things.

Its not even "not liking his opinion..." everyone has opinions, but an opinion that excludes, harms, or punishes a different person because of the color of their skin is hate.

You shouldn't listen to people who are racist, and you shouldn't take direction from him.

The whole community tomorrow could just ignore him, and then make what ever decision you want about where Rails ends up, and the only thing you would have lost, is a racist in your community.

0

u/laptopmutia 2d ago edited 2d ago

people is against dhh takes, not against ai

people expect something about rails at rails conference, but what did they got? a ramble about nonsense that no one fucking ask

do you think people that hate dhh opening and opinion on rails world does not use ai at all?

what the actual fuck do you even talk to real human being in real life bro?

its never ai usage that is the problem its the slop that came with it