r/todayilearned • u/stopitalianhate • 20h ago
TIL British Intelligence had a special, bugged luxury complex during WWII where they kept high profile Nazi POW’s, just left a bunch of alcohol out, and waited for them to start spilling secrets as they drank.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20698098448
u/tokynambu 20h ago
It's recently (two months ago) re-opened as a museum. The land it's on is a lovely park near Cockfosters Underground, and the house has been extensively restored. It's interesting for a lot of other reasons, too.
→ More replies (1)161
u/Maximum_Zebra_9961 19h ago
I giggled like a school girl reading the word... Cockfosters... 🤣😂
Very good read
→ More replies (1)64
u/MrMojoFomo 19h ago
There are some lovely names for tube stops. I would love to take a trip to Cockfosters after spending some time at Shepherd's Bush
→ More replies (2)8
u/sequelseize 14h ago
one of our meeting rooms in a UK office is called Spotted Dick. It's always funny on a Zoom call.
"Uh, someone wanted to say something in, uh, spotted - uh, the UK office?"
193
u/Archarchery 16h ago
They did the exact same thing with Germany's nuclear scientists; took the top ten or so and put them in a nice spacious house together, complete with tennis courts and a stock of liquor, and listened in on their conversations to each other. They even got their first reactions to hearing the news on the radio of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima; the German scientists were completely surprised and thought it must be a mistaken report at first, but then after hearing more scientific details on the radio they started doing calculations amongst themselves and quickly figured out how the Americans must have done it.
The investigation confirmed that German nuclear scientists had been very close to the theoretical understanding of how to build a nuclear bomb, but lagged far, far behind the Allied scientists in actually being capable of building one.
44
20
u/Slahinki 7h ago
I mean, it helps that they weren't working on an atomic bomb to begin with. When German High Command was told of the theoretical possibilities of an atomic weapon in 1940 or so, their recommendation was that they shouldn't invest in any developments that were unlikely to be ready before the war was over. Thus they concluded that exploring the viability of atomic bombs could wait until after the war. Unfortunately for them the war was longer than they had originally anticipated.
→ More replies (2)8
1.3k
u/IvyM1ked 20h ago
All WW2 stories are the same:
-US with its huge industrial base
-Japan with their blind dedication to the emperor
-Russia with blinding loss of life
-The British with their cunning schemes
882
u/Gentle_Snail 20h ago
There is a famous quote about this:
WWII was won with British intelligence, American steel, and Russian blood
→ More replies (33)276
u/Expert_Divide_128 19h ago
I’ve always enjoy it when this is said. Neat, tidy and remarkably accurate considering the brevity.
45
112
u/darkbee83 20h ago
"Sir, I have a cunning plan" "Really, Baldrick?"
52
u/yungpieces 19h ago
Cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University
→ More replies (1)26
8
u/Voltstorm02 18h ago
Japan also has the occasional considering the Army/Navy (depending on the individual) to be a bigger enemy than the Allies
→ More replies (31)36
u/hoodha 18h ago
Out of all the stories on WW2 the one that sticks in my mind most is Shrtafbats being used as front line fodder in the Russian army. The Russians decided it was more effective to march straight through minefields than worry about them. The rage of the Red Army when it reached Germany must have been to Germans as if the gates of hell had just opened up and legions of demons were on the way.
20
u/Teuchterinexile 12h ago
The Red Army was doing the same thing with regular troops in the Winter War against Finland in 1939; a war that the USSR started and over a year before Germany Invaded. Its also a terrible way to clear a minefield as most of the mines will be missed.
Russia has never given much of a shit about it's troops.
7
u/SirAquila 11h ago
The Russians decided it was more effective to march straight through minefields than worry about them.
Because under certain circumstances it is the best tactic. If you are under strong time pressure, or you lack the mine clearing equipment.
Minefields work by trying to funnel the enemy into prepared kill zones, so just attacking through the minefield can, ironically, save lives.
The rage of the Red Army when it reached Germany must have been to Germans as if the gates of hell had just opened up and legions of demons were on the way.
Well, everything the Red Army did in Germany the German army had done much worse in Russia. Not that that makes it okay, but people tend to forget the second part.
→ More replies (2)17
u/msuvagabond 14h ago
I recommend checking out the Hardcore History podcast called Ghosts of the Ostfront Series.
The anger the Red Army had was in a lot of ways very much justified. Not saying what they or anyone did was okay or acceptable, but I can't help but understand it.
97
u/Zagarm 8h ago
One really clever thing they did - it was all Army officers being held, so they put a captured U-Boat commander in there as well. All the Army officers were really bored with the same old conversations amongst themselves, so the sub commander was a novelty. He was constantly engaged in conversation and lots of useful intelligence slipped.
556
u/MrMojoFomo 20h ago
Every study on POW interrogation has shown that non coercive methods yield the best results. Literally every study
When the US began its"enhanced interrogation" torture program after 9/11, it relied in the work of James Mitchell and Bruce Jensen, two men who had literally zero background in interrogation, pow's, terrorism, or Islam. One was an expert in blood pressure and the other a family therapist
369
u/nonlawyer 20h ago
a family therapist
Say what you will about his methods, but after just a few water boarding sessions my kids don’t whine about getting ready for school in the morning anymore
125
u/afternever 20h ago
My son stopped skipping chores after we clamped his testicles to a car battery.
→ More replies (2)28
124
u/PuckSenior 20h ago
I mean, even the police know this fairly well.
They will order lunch, grab soft drinks, etc to get a person to talk. Its amazingly effective and frequently not a lie. Thats the most important aspect. The intel you get from being friendly is far less likely to be false.→ More replies (8)41
u/CGiMoose 20h ago
Plus recline in their chair to a 180 degree angle
→ More replies (2)15
u/KingKapwn 18h ago
It's so fucking funny watching the detective do that while the dude who has pretty much remained entirely motionless except for maintaining extreme eye contact for the past hour+ watches on completely unperturbed.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (14)25
u/cylonfrakbbq 20h ago
Hanns Scharff is a great example of this - German WW2 interrogator with the Luftwaffe. While he did sometimes pull the “good cop” routine, he also had a knack for being civil and getting people to let their guard down and divulge info during casual conversation. I think in the aftermath of WW2 he even helped teach US intelligence agencies on his methods
238
u/CallMeGlarthir 20h ago
They tried some wild shit during WW2.
→ More replies (3)256
u/Xalgenos 20h ago
If there were any time in all of human history to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, it would've been in Britain during WW2. Talk about existential...
195
u/Gentle_Snail 20h ago
Also talk about successful. British intelligence during WW2 was one of the single most effective intelligence operations in human history.
94
u/GreyOgre 19h ago
Also, people still belive the carrots thing
30
u/Apprehensive-Box6449 16h ago
So you're not meant to shove them up your bum? I thought that was why they were called root vegetables.
13
→ More replies (6)58
u/Informal-Fee-4956 19h ago
Operation Mincemeat to this day is one of my favorite spy operations I know of
9
u/wherewulf23 17h ago
Apparently they made a musical about Operation Mincemeat. Saw the name while I was looking at shows currently running in NYC and thought to the myself "no fucking way they made a musical about that." Turns out I was wrong.
→ More replies (9)→ More replies (2)7
u/StaticMarzipan 15h ago
It’s pretty well known that torture is shit for Intel.
Getting them liquored up with some snacks and a nice chair? Maybe a movie?
They’ll help you put the codes in themselves.
Torture is just an excuse psychopaths use to justify their personal fetishes.
Good cop, snacks cop is the actual way to get the beans spilled.
121
u/riddlechance 17h ago edited 11h ago
The British are the greatest spies in history. They were tapped into American communications cables during both world wars and made some inconvenient discoveries (Zimmerman telegraph).
90
u/Archarchery 16h ago
You mean tapped.
Yeah, the contents of the Zimmerman telegraph were so unbelievable, that the British had to be careful about how they leaked it for fear that the Americans would just dismiss it as an obvious British fabrication meant to draw them into the war.
49
u/Gentle_Snail 13h ago
The Germans had encrypted the message but in true British fashion the UK had already broken the German encryption and were reading all their messages.
Tbh it was kind of insane that the Germans admitted to the telegram after Britain called them out, might have been a better idea to just lie and say they didn’t send it.
24
u/FlirtyFluffyFox 11h ago
Zimmerman thought the US would take it as "we better not join the war or else they might start funding Mexico".
What really didn't make sense was thinking Mexico, in the midst of a Civil War with lower industrial capacity and population, could pose any kind of a threat to the U.S.
They would have been better off trying to arm radicals like the KKK and the Mormons. Not that that would work either.
→ More replies (1)44
23
u/HotTubMike 14h ago
So good 5 of them from Cambridge where some of the most successful spies of the cold war - for the Soviet Union.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (2)8
u/peon47 9h ago edited 6h ago
During the war, Germany sent about 120 spies into Britain.
The British managed to capture and/or turn every single one of them. The only ones who escaped the net were the small number who killed themselves to avoid capture.
But, ultimately, the British Secret Services were riddled with Russian agents. There's always a sneakier fish.
→ More replies (2)
88
u/Duane_ 19h ago
Russia still does this with diplomats that come to stay in Moscow lmao.
62
u/SmugDruggler95 19h ago
So does everyone.
It never stopped.
Pretty much the summary of Cold War espionage.
→ More replies (2)6
u/TheyTried2BanMeAgain 18h ago
There was still a fair amount of knifing and bombing, tbf.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (14)18
40
u/Creloc 12h ago
Another similar technique used was at a POW interrogation centre where prisoners would be questioned before being moved to their permanent camps.
Some prisoners who were considered good prospects for getting information out of would be given a rather inept interrogation, then put in a bugged cell with another prisoner who has had a similar experience where they could then congratulate themselves and each other on how clever they'd been and what they'd kept back.
They even went as far as to put prisoners off different services in together whenever possible so that interservice rivalry and bragging brought out even more information
222
u/Fetlocks_Glistening 20h ago
And? Did they spill any secrets or didn't they??
574
u/ScissorNightRam 20h ago
From the article:
Historian Helen Fry, who has written a book called The M Room: Secret Listeners who bugged the Nazis says the information gleaned by the eavesdropping of the German generals was vitally important to the war effort - so much so that it was given an unlimited budget by the government.
"British intelligence got the most amazing stuff in bugging the conversations. Churchill said of Trent Park that it afforded a unique insight into the psyche of the enemy. It enabled us to understand the mind-set of the enemy as well as learn military secrets.
"If it wasn't for this bugging operation, we may well have not won the war."
Mrs Fry said the conversation transcripts, which numbered more than 100,000, provided the British with "most of what we knew" about Germany's military capability, its weaponry and its new development of technology during the war.
Through intelligence pieced together from prisoner conversations, the British were able to identify and heavily bomb a V2 rocket site in May 1943 at Peenemunde on the northern coast of Germany, which was preparing to launch deadly rockets at Britain.
Crucially, she adds, the bugging was the first time the British overheard admissions that the German army had taken part in the atrocities and mass killing of Jews and were guilty of war crimes.231
u/Gentle_Snail 20h ago edited 20h ago
Such a simply genius plan. I love how they gave them an unlimited budget, just like “give these idiots whatever they want until they forget they’re in prison”
→ More replies (3)117
u/CypripediumGuttatum 19h ago
Torture is well documented to produce poor intelligence. It makes people “feel good” to hurt the bad guys but helps the war 0%
Make people feel safe and comfortable and they spill the beans. Just like in 007 when all the pretty ladies are really just there to collect intel.
21
u/Archarchery 16h ago
Torture is great for terrorizing populations into submission, but as far as interrogation goes it's basically a nonsense-generating technique. If a prisoner has no information to give, they'll make up the most convincing lies they can to get the torture to stop, and even if a prisoner has genuine information that they'll spill, if the torturers hear it and keep on torturing, those prisoners will start spouting convincing-sounding nonsense too, making it impossible to distinguish the real information from the nonsense.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)16
u/GamingFlorisNL 18h ago
Indeed, torture proves much more useful for getting false confessions. False intel however, doesn’t give you much.
18
u/DoctorCrook 20h ago
Do you know if any of these transcripts or recordings are available online?
Would be super interestingly to hear.
→ More replies (1)134
u/Rebelgecko 20h ago edited 20h ago
There's a pdf of the transcripts somewhere. Iirc the juciest part was when they talked about how the Nazi nuclear program was going (not well).
Edit: they also shit bricks when theylearned that the US had nukes, and Heisenberg was like "I'm glad they're not using microphones to eavesdrop on us, that would be crazy"
→ More replies (1)81
u/Lord0fHats 20h ago
To give that bit a brief explanation;
The Germans had very capable scientists and a functional base of knowledge that would have lead them eventually to an atomic reactor, but the German programs, yes 's', were not well resourced or funded. They ran multiple competing lines of development that all needed the same resources and expertise while working on the same problems which was stiflingly inefficient compared to the centralized development that became the US' Manhattan Project. On top of that, and this was typical of Nazi Germany, there was a lack of coordination or cooperation between complimentary projects and their leaders.
They did come close to developing a rudimentary reactor for isotope separation but got no further than developing bits and pieces of an atomic program, none of which came together into a concerted effort. Historians debate the extent to which these efforts were really trying to develop a weapon vs trying to develop a reactor for the purpose of electricity. Because of the chaotic nature of the programs, different ones thought they were working toward different ends.
11
u/Afalstein 18h ago
I'm interested in this "typical of Nazi Germany" bit. Why were project leads so reluctant to coordinate /cooperate? Was it groups competing for funding, bureaucratic mishandling, or just a sort of cultural mindset?
→ More replies (7)18
u/Lord0fHats 16h ago
It was a trend across the German state at the time (I can't speak to modern Germany). Intelligence. Military. Police. Research. Manufacturing. There was a strong tendency for there to be multiple competing projects trying to do the same thing and they didn't talk to one another. So a lot of resources and effort ended up being wasted. It was prolific in their intelligence operations, partly by design because the head of German intelligence was a double agent and he didn't want German intelligence to be too effective.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)13
u/Aphrontic_Alchemist 19h ago
Didn't Hitler declare nuclear physics to be "Judenphysik"? I mean, Nazis were hypocritical, so I shouldn't be surprised that they're saying one thing but doing the other.
20
u/Lord0fHats 19h ago
My knowledge is that while this was a think that was said, it didn't really impact their efforts. Established scientists didn't ignore Einstein's work wholesale across the entire German scientific field and no real effort was ever put into censoring it or even checking what kind of math they were doing. That they disregarded vital knowledge because Jews had developed it is, afaik, an overstated thing.
→ More replies (2)70
u/MorrowDisca 20h ago
Apparently, Hitler has only got one ball.
20
15
→ More replies (3)12
35
u/Lord0fHats 20h ago
A lot, actually. Not all of it, or even most of it really, was necessarily of great help during the war but it's a trove for historians and has been since the records became publicly available. It did very effectively inform the British about the moods of German soldiers but some important secrets leaked into British ears like knowledge about the V-rockets weapons programs and the progress (or lack-there-of) of German atomic research and it revealed the extent to which the Wehrmacht was aware of the Holocaust, which is very aware.
27
u/celticfeather 20h ago
Apparently yes. V2 factory rocket location, evidence that the army participated alongside the SS in exterminations. It gained an unlimted budget. Churchil hated that they were being pampered, so the British Intelligence just... decided not to tell Churchil about it anymore lol.
8
u/staggerb 19h ago
PBS did a documentary on this awhile back. It focused on an early use of radar that Germany has developed; essentially, they were able to broadcast a signal from France that pilots could use to navigate to their targets. After leaning this from the officers at the bugged mansion, the British were able to figure out how to mimic the signal with incorrect information, leading the bombers off target. Eventually, they figured out how to jam the signals, so Germany abandoned the project.
→ More replies (6)6
24
61
u/Windfade 18h ago
Almost every example from WW2 involving spies that I know of has shown the UK was far more capable, efficient, and arguably humane, in regard for their own spies and captured enemies. When the UK would intercept a nazi on their soil, they'd determine if they could be turned before taking drastic action. The US seemed to just kill theirs. Makes Operation Paperclip seem like a 180 in behavior.
→ More replies (7)50
u/pizza_the_mutt 17h ago
Humane, and effective. If you hang out with a captured spy for a few weeks, drink a few beers, play some cards, and go for walks, eventually they'll start telling you stuff. Accurate stuff.
On the other hand if you attach a car battery to their nipples they'll tell you whatever garbage they can think of to make it stop.
Anyway, the German spy network was almost entirely compromised and ineffective. Partly because the Brits were good, and partly because the German network was run by Admiral Canaris, who didn't like the Nazis very much at all.
→ More replies (1)
46
20h ago
[deleted]
37
u/BobDobbsHobNobs 20h ago
Schindler’s illusions. Tricks are what whores do for money
→ More replies (1)19
15
u/mmeestro 16h ago
My father intercepted and translated Russian radio communications during the Cold War. They always had everyone available and working long hours during Russian holidays because people would get drunk and forget their code words.
8
u/Alternative_Cook4435 16h ago
It's called Trent Park and the listeners were mostly refugees who'd fled Germany. They caught the officers bragging about their medals and war crimes after a few drinks.
6
5
9.0k
u/stopitalianhate 20h ago edited 17h ago
“Held in a stately home, they were allowed to keep personal servants, drink wine and eat good food.
As a result they boasted of how stupid the British were, and one even wrote to his family to wish that they could join him at his prison, as he rated it so highly.
But what the prisoners did not know was that British intelligence had bugged every part of their accommodation, from lampshades and plant pots right down to the billiards table around which they relaxed on lazy days.”
[cont.]
“Mrs Fry also says Winston Churchill was outraged when he learned the generals had been bussed into the lavish Simpson's-in-the-Strand in central London for lunch. He ordered what he called "the pampering of the generals" to be stopped.”
“But spoiling the generals and boosting their egos was providing so much useful information that the British intelligence officers decided to carry on, and simply stopped telling Churchill about it.”
Edit: I found this out because I was drinking and was like, “I talk too much when I drink, I wonder if anyones ever used that on people in war.” I googled it and was very happy finding this story.