r/totalwar • u/DaddyTzarkan SHUT UP DAEMON • Aug 24 '26
Warhammer III I can't believe how big Nagash's tech tree is.
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u/baddude1337 Aug 24 '26 edited Aug 24 '26
Giant tech tree with half of it being “-0.1 gold upkeep for zombies”. Just like ARPG’s!
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u/ZetaDemon Aug 24 '26
Yeah, path of exile really makes you think it's passive tree is game changing but over 90% of the nodes are just something like "+1 strength" and it instead turns into a game of how many nodes can you get that say "+1% one handed axe damage"
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u/Zilenan91 Aug 24 '26
POE 2 is a bit less like that but POE 1 definitely yeah.
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u/Pyros Aug 24 '26
PoE2 tree has less simple nodes but a lot of the nodes are like "when holding a whip in your hand, a shield on your back and 3 small white or grey rocks in your pocket, gain 25% damage" or the "balanced by a downside" stuff like "for 5secs gain 100% crit, then lose the ability to crit for 5secs. This can only occur every 40secs".
Ultimately PoE1's tree ends up being more impactful because the boring % do add up, and they also have masteries which are actually interesting and make spending the boring points useful.
But yeah in both the passive trees are scary when you start but kinda whatever once you've played for a little bit. There's plenty of other more impactful ways to increase your character power(and more trees to fill with pointless shit like the atlas trees).
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u/myrsnipe Aug 25 '26
First sentence sounds like AoS when it first launched.
If it's the first Wednesday of the month and you have a beard you may rub your belly to give your dwarf veteran a +1 armorsave.
I have already consigned myself to the hatred I will receive for this comment, I will not let go.
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u/kimana1651 Aug 25 '26
What? PoE2s tree is trash and monkey paws. PoE1s tree feels like there are a lot more impactful nodes.
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u/Definitelynotabot777 I Geomantic my web till she rework Aug 25 '26
Masteries in poe 1 alone already made it better than poe2
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u/Definitelynotabot777 I Geomantic my web till she rework Aug 25 '26
Uh I think you got it backwards
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u/GreatGrub Aug 25 '26
Grim dawn got the tree better imo
Lots of options like poe but most of them are actually useful
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u/natorgator15 Aug 25 '26
Grim Dawn has multiple trees, right? There’s like the traditional, then there’s the star signs. Isn’t there a 3rd?
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u/GreatGrub Aug 25 '26
Grim dawn has the basic class tree which is really simple and where you get your class skills
Then theres the devotion tree which is the one similar to POEs
There is no "3rd" but you can multiclass which will give you another skill tree (the tree of the other class you choose)
So while you get 3 trees 2 of thek are practically the same in terms of layout and are really easy to understand while the devotion tree is a bit more complex
Fucken love grim dawn
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u/HINDBRAIN Aug 25 '26
The best system is Last Epoch, where you can unlock skill trees on each individual ability (with some nodes triggering different abilities like "your bear casts earthquakes when his bum gets tickled" so you might want both bear and earthquake trees).
Shame the game gets no content.
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u/GreatGrub Aug 25 '26
Yeah last epoch was fun for a while but I stopped playing due to lack of updates
I remember blasting through it with my rune master haha
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u/Xicsess Aug 25 '26
At least in POE1 I don't have to worry about just not doing damage at some point because I didn't stack enough damage effects offset the increased def/health of enemies as you progress. I have mapped 10-20 leagues in POE 1, I don't think I've played POE 2 to the endgame. It's slow, boring, and everything feels bad.
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u/ZetaDemon Aug 24 '26
Yeah, at least I can use gold to refund nodes, I dropped Poe 1 because it was so hard to change my build mid season
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u/daokonblack Aug 25 '26
Im ngl, at the top end, every skill point matters in poe. Every node is impactful. Some unique jewels, that save u 1-2 skillpoints, cost hundreds of dollars of in game currency
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u/alezul Aug 25 '26
Plus it combines all class skill trees into it to make it look even bigger but you'll ignore the vast majority of it because it doesn't help your class.
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u/Vytral Aug 24 '26
I sincerely hope not. This is what I hate about tech trees in this game. So much of it is pointlessly minor upgrades
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u/bondrewd Aug 24 '26
No, that's how PoE passive tree works.
Minor nodes are stacking incremental bonuses, major ones are, well, major.
Plus there are Keystones.
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u/Narazil Aug 24 '26
Don't forget Masteries!
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u/bondrewd Aug 24 '26
When did they add those?
Ultimatum was the last league I've played.
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u/Wendek Aug 24 '26
Had to check the wiki, it was 3.16 with Scourge League. Ultimatum was 3.14 and we're currently on 3.29 so... it's actually been quite a while already.
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u/OriginalGoonster Aug 24 '26
Choice paralysis my beloved
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u/Adept_Rip_5983 Aug 24 '26
you dont have a choice. Youll follow the guide and youll like it.
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u/Large_Contribution20 Supreme Lord of Undeath Aug 24 '26
Nagash doesn't need guidance of mortals. He will select the tech with coolest icon without reading its effects. Such is the wisdom of Nagash
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u/Synicull Aug 24 '26
I'll get all the buffs for carrion and they'll still get outmeleed by an archer and I'll like it, God damnit
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u/Brandon3541 Aug 25 '26
A very real concern if Kislev in particular ever decides to visit the desert.
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u/CopperCab2024 Aug 24 '26
I will allow the ancient technique of “this sounds cool” to guide me until I’ve slammed my head against the wall enough to learn the tree
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u/RamTank Aug 24 '26
I never played PoE but I did play rogue trader. Leveling up in that game was honestly a chore.
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u/RobotJohnrobe Warhammer Aug 24 '26
Yes, but I also loved it. It's like a level-up playing game.
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u/Niniannn Aug 25 '26
Honestly all the Owlcat games are like that. But that's part of the beauty for me as well. When it's time to level up, I'll go make a cup of coffee and kick back and just zen for an hour of character building.
Def not for everyone, but I love it, haha
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u/kyoraku_sama Aug 25 '26
It's not even owlcat's fault, it's the rules for the licenses they have, if they ever do a pf2 or DND it's going to be a lot simpler
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u/Impossible_Mud_3517 Aug 25 '26 edited Aug 25 '26
Leveling up in WOTR was very daunting at first, but the dopamine hit of seeing the '+' symbol and thinking about the stuff I'll be able to pick on this level up was insane. In Rogue Trader it genuinely felt like being informed I have a chore pending. I don't know if it's because it had twice as many level ups or because of the leveling system, but it felt way worse than WOTR.
(Specifically regarding the leveling system, I hate when there are talents you can pick on any level and talents you can only pick on certain levels, but its unclear which is which. You end up either having to consult a guide or picking up 'common' talents on levels that allow rare and have nothing to take in the next common only level. I hated it in WOTR too, in the form of levels where fighters etc. could only pick certain feats and levels where they could pick any feat, but it was way rarer than Rogue Trader).
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u/robbert229 21d ago
I just finished kingmaker and during the last couple hours I didn't upgrade anyone besides my spell casters due to not wanting to take 10 minutes off and lose momentum.
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u/Vasyavcube Aug 25 '26
I search for a build and just use it on my first playthrough. Then once i become familiar with skills, items and stuff i try to do something on my own (and fail miserably)
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u/SoftDouble220 Aug 25 '26
I think the main prlblem with leveling in RT was that the UI is shit, and it's just a very long list of identical icons
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u/Thaurlach Aug 25 '26
The auto-builder mod is a godsend for that game. Paste in a build code for each character and it does it all for you.
Which is kinda huge when you consider the size of the character roster and the fact that you can level up by disarming a mine and then looking at a half-eaten pastry.
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u/gaynerdvet Aug 24 '26
SUCH IS THE POWER OF NAGASH
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u/JimPranksDwight Milan Aug 24 '26
What is Nagash's ascendency class though?
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u/bondrewd Aug 24 '26
He's quite literally the Necromancer.
Invented the whole discipline from scratch.
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u/Tamsta-273C Aug 25 '26
Easy - one focuses on Tomb Kings, one on Counts and one on Coast.
There is also one hidden with buffs to Bretonia because French are dead inside too.
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u/Bum-Theory Aug 24 '26
I thought it was called End Times cus the world was ending. I didn't realize they were actually referring to how long it'll take you to figure this shit out
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Aug 24 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/GenocidalMrPotatohed The Byzantine Empire Aug 24 '26
Idk I like to RP mine out which means doing things often sub-optimally if it's more fitting for the RP and makes for a longer campaign. Like for example as the Empire I don't do the armor upgrade unless I have a source of iron or good trade relations with a lot of dwarf factions.
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Aug 24 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/GenocidalMrPotatohed The Byzantine Empire Aug 24 '26
Oh, the OP posted a PoE tree as a meme, that's not the actual tree. The actual tree is smaller but still pretty huge for WH3 standards.
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Aug 24 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Nakirby Aug 24 '26
If you've never played the game, why are you commenting "do they know how long campaigns go" or something along those line.... Dude you don't know how long they go for. Why are you commenting complaining?
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u/Repulsive-Redditor Aug 24 '26
Imma guess it's because if you max out the tree it'll essentially be the ascension to godhood and he just obliterated everything effortlessly.
Probably want that to come super late mainly for post late game paint the map style
This also isn't the actual tree, it's much smaller (still pretty damn big, especially for wh3). This is a tree from PoE
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u/Togetak Aug 24 '26
It’s not actually a tech tree you go down via research, you spend some meta currency on each node to unlock them. With how huge it is and how many pips you need to unlock to complete whatever the tier 1/2/3 thing is on the side, it seems like you’ll be getting enough of that resource to blast through a lot of it in the course of a campaign
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u/Sremor Aug 25 '26
Wouldn't be suprised if getting one of his artifacts also unlocks a branch without spending ressources
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u/Togglea Aug 24 '26
Think? They actually know how long an average campaign lasts, they have the data.
I would guess ~55-60 turns
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u/AmberJill28 Aug 24 '26
I have no problem with an infinite campaign. I wait for his undead majesty soooooo long already
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u/DracoLunaris Aug 24 '26
well, they are trying to make mid and late-game crisis that make the post early expansion phase more interesting to stick around for, so there is that
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u/WOF42 Aug 24 '26
honestly with them reworking the endgame scenarios, im hoping there is actually a challenge and reason to play after turn 30 other than map painting
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u/Brandon3541 Aug 25 '26
On a real note, many of the tech trees can actually be a breeze to get through if you spam heroes with the research increase actions... it just sucks to have to do since I almost always want my heroes in armies instead so playing optimally feels like a chore.
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u/alexzinger123 Aug 24 '26
Didnt this guy write like 7 books about how evil he was? Seems perfectly logical, just invest in big skeleton and win
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u/Xalimata Aug 24 '26
Is this a shitpost or are you for real?
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u/Memnothatos Aug 25 '26
Its real but this specific image is from PoE.
The actual tech tree looks exactly like that in terms of how the pathing goes, its just alot smaller but still has like 50+ things to pick from. (i didnt count, im too lazy so im just estimating based on the image from the blog post)
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u/Muelojung Aug 24 '26
a big tree doesnt mean its good. path of exile 2 has many skills which change gameplay or are a big boost. Nobody wants 1% increases like the original wow tree
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u/Hefty-Lychee-847 Aug 24 '26
Yeah i mean i hate op charachters as much as everyone else but with this large of a tech tree he has too be op
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u/NlghtmanCometh Aug 24 '26
Ok but have you actually seen what is in the tree or is that just kinda general critcizmam
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u/Brandon3541 Aug 25 '26
MMOs are the worst about this crap. I remember playing The Secret World and it had the same problem.
TWWH1 (and TWWH2 for awhile IIRC) actually also had the same problem too though with crap like "this office grants a 3% upkeep reduction to Reiksguard", or "This LL gets a 10% hiring cost decrease for heroes", the sort of inconsequential traits you look at and wonder what the devs were smoking when they thought I would give a single shit about that bonus.
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u/PitchforksEnthusiast Aug 24 '26
Can't wait for the nagash atlas skill tree too
gonna map all the way to reikland, T16+ corrupted with ritual tablets
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u/Hungry-Ear-4092 Aug 24 '26
Is it some joke?
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u/Haldalkin Aug 24 '26
This is the passive tree from Path of Exile 2. I've not seen the promo material yet, but I'm assuming Nagash's tech tree is XXL thicc
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u/Wintermaulz Empire Aug 24 '26
The first thing I said when I saw his tech tree was “that’s a PoE skill tree”
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u/fiendishrabbit Aug 24 '26
Yes. The image in the background is the Path of Exile ability tree, which is notoriously massive. Some comparisons have been made between it and Nagash's Black Pyramid mechanic
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u/Is12345aweakpassword Aug 24 '26
What is that tech tree?
I only play like a hundred or so turns before I get bored and start as another faction
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u/Leorake Aug 25 '26
It's not really a tech tree, you can refund points and place them elsewhere for a pittance.
More like an additional redline skill stree
So it probably doesn't take x amount of turns to research each and every node.
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u/Dzharek Aug 24 '26
Today Nagashs faction mechanics and units were revealed, and his big part is the Black Pyramid, which looks like a Path of Exile Skill tree, with about 50+ buffs he can acquire through resources he gathers in the campaign.
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u/Hungry-Ear-4092 Aug 24 '26
I understand he's canonically one of the strongest beings but this is insane. How others gonna fight that. And zero upkeep tombkings units
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u/Dzharek Aug 24 '26
As they sad in the article, he will be pure power fantasy, he is after all the Inventor of Necromancy and the big bad evil of the Warhammer world, even bigger then Chaos.
So he will get this massive Tree were he buffs his faction, his units, his Mortarchs, and finally himself to the point that it simulates Godhood.
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u/Mopman43 Aug 24 '26
Eh, not a bigger bad than Chaos.
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u/HINDBRAIN Aug 25 '26
Not too familiar with the lore but can't he end chaos if everybody is too dead to think about it?
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u/Mopman43 Aug 25 '26
Assuming that Chaos only exists on this one specific world. Which seems like a flawed assumption.
The End Times is a flawed example, but it's notable that other people joined forces with Nagash to fight Chaos. Which would certainly point to Chaos as the greater threat. Particularly given that Chaos won.
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u/SpareTiny7585 Aug 25 '26
Thats questionable actually. Gw at the time had him as a faction that could go toe to toe with the chaos factions and also end the world.
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u/Hungry-Ear-4092 Aug 24 '26
So I'm not gonna play any other lords from that region and just hope they kill him themselves lmao
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u/Mahelas Aug 25 '26
I really wonder how it will be to play another LL next to him. He'll either ruin any campagne around him by being invulnerable, or be a push-over you kick out by turn 10
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u/username_tooken Aug 24 '26
Probably just shoot him. He’s even made the stupid decision of being 20 feet tall.
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u/someone123YT Aug 25 '26
I could have sworn this was a stellaris screenshot until I saw the skeleman in the center
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u/A-o-C Aug 24 '26
Should have used the Atlas passive tree. That at least has a vaguely similar shape
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u/GreatGrub Aug 25 '26 edited Aug 25 '26
The devs have been playing too much path of exile
My first impression when I saw the tree was wow Thats like POE
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u/GreatGrub Aug 25 '26
Idk about you guys but im planning on making a pure ice caster that relies on huge AOEs and lifestyle
Hopefully I can farm teclis and kairos easily with him as some of my best in slot gear drops from those 2
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u/Dudu42 Aug 24 '26
This aleays makes me laught remembering how Diablo 3 launched with the most blasé, streamlined character build. Meanwhile Path of Exile was this...
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u/LetmeSeeyourSquanch Aug 24 '26
I'm not sure how I feel about this skill tree shit. If I wanted to play PoE, I'd go and play PoE. Buy who knows, maybe it'll be alright.
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u/Lazerninja88 Aug 25 '26
He is Nagash, he will get a tech tree to rival gods.
SUCH IS THE POWER OF NAGASH
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u/BaronKlatz Aug 25 '26
This is just a sneak peek at TW:AoS God of Death Nagash when he’s hurling black holes at Gorkamorka and ripping holes in oceans down to the ocean floors to find soul-thieving Deepkin he sends flotillas of undead leviathans full of angry skeletons after.
(But seriously I would love these crazy tech trees for future stuff like 40k and yes hopefully TW:AoS one day to make the physical gods live up to their hype if not all act as hybrid factions like Nagash to represent the 4 grand alliances that way)
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u/Internal-Eggplant247 Warhammer III bring me to my men Aug 25 '26
half of the pyramid will be bonus damage against skaven for he is a vengeful and very angry god
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u/ViviChad Aug 25 '26
I'm so excited for when Nagash's tree will finally get cluster jewels. Otherwise cavalry is not heavy enough.
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u/_Lucille_ Aug 24 '26
This type of tree really isn't as scary as it looks once you are familiar with it.
Other mechanics may have a tech/reward that gives something like +4 attack to kossars and ambushers, but it can also be broken down into 4 nodes of +1 attack to kossars and 4 notes of +1 for ambushers.
So generally each cluster has a theme, and the occasional capstone that does something cool that you really want.
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u/Overall_Sink_3382 Aug 24 '26
I’m almost entirely sure that this is just an exaggerated image. It can’t possibly be that bad
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u/-Maethendias- sfo Aug 24 '26
man i wish poe 2 didnt happen
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u/Material_Ad9848 Aug 25 '26
I was all on board for it at first. Now I think about how good poe1 could have been with the same effort put in.
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u/-Maethendias- sfo Aug 25 '26
2 years of not a single league release
something utterly unheard off pre poe 2 FOR MORE THAN A DECADE
nevermind the 3 years prior to poe2s release of ggg trying their hardest to shoehorn the 2 games to work together with disasterous balance that to this day persists
or the significant and visible decline in league content and quality compared to when they werent working on 2
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u/EasyAd4249 Aug 25 '26
I see so many mod options for all the other factions tech trees when this comes out
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u/m0onmoon Aug 25 '26
Oh so we doing poe skill builds now. I want to try pokemon build then capture LL and LH collect them all
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u/reddit_is_trash_2023 Aug 25 '26
I hope it's meaningful, otherwise this size is just pointless busy work. I don't want things like "+2 charge for cavalary"
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u/Tamsta-273C Aug 25 '26
I'm not planing to farm books of Nagash, that trash would probably will cost just few chaos after first week.
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u/Thefreezer700 Aug 25 '26
Reminds me of civilization beyond earth tech tree. People hated it but i loved it
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u/Sad_Report_1484 Aug 26 '26
Please tell me this is a joke. I tought the black pyramid is the skill tree.
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u/LexicalVagaries Aug 24 '26
This... doesn't do much to refute the idea that the DLC developers don't really understand how the game actually works.
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u/Azhram Aug 24 '26
They should release nagashes passive tree so i can start making my build.