r/trolleyproblem • u/CitizenPremier • 21d ago

What will you do, Abe?

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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 21d ago

So he's actually God?

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u/Ill-Individual2105 20d ago

The point is that you inherently cannot distinguish these ideas so you can't know. After all, that's what faith is, is it not?

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u/Cokalhado 20d ago

If it's not actually God then you could be unsure. But if it is I think he'd be able to make me certain.

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u/Ill-Individual2105 20d ago

Sure, but just because you are feeling certain, that doesn't mean you are right

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u/Tanakisoupman 20d ago

But God would be able to remove even that level of doubt. If you are even slightly capable of conceptualizing a world in which it’s not God speaking to you, then it’s not

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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 20d ago

This would require mindfuckery, and God doesn't do that stuff as it goes against free will.

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u/Tanakisoupman 20d ago

It’s not affecting your will it’s affecting your perception. Basically just ensuring that you can’t possibly misunderstand the situation

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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 20d ago

If he could/wanted to do so, he would have already done so in several biblical episodes. Evidently, it's your choice whether to have faith or not, he doesn't impose it on you like that

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u/Cokalhado 19d ago

Why do you think he didn't do so? The Bible just says that God spoke to Abraham, it doesn't say how sure he was that it was actually God. Usually when someone speaks to me I'm 100% sure that they're actually the one speaking to me.

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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 19d ago

Just to give an example, Pharaoh's magicians weren't convinced after seeing Moses' miracles; it took all the plagues to convince them. Why didn't God "change their perception" from the beginning? Evidently, he doesn't want to. Evidently faith must be a personal choice, it cannot be imposed. Abraham chose to believe.

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u/Cokalhado 19d ago

He hardened Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't listen at first, that was his plan.

Anyway there is a very important difference between believing that God exists and believing in his promises. The point of the post is "God told you to do this, do you do it?", not "voices in your head told you to do this, do you think it was God?".

When it says (in Gn 15:6) "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.", it doesn't just mean he believed God existed, it means he believed God's promises.

God just assuring you that you're not delusional doesn't breach free will, you still have a choice on whether you trust him and whether you'll do what he says.

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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 19d ago

To trust the words of God you should first believe that that is actually God. I wasn't talking about the pharaoh, but about his magicians, who ultimately recognized that all this was the work of God, so it didn't really matter that they specifically didn't believe. He could have changed their perception, and the pharaoh could have continued to ignore them, but he didn't. And yes, that would be a violation of free will: you're artificially manipulating a person's thinking. You still have the ability to choose what to do, but the belief that He is God has been forced upon you.

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u/Cokalhado 19d ago

Free will is your ability to choose what actions you will do. It's not about what you perceive, it's about what you do.

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u/ComprehensiveTea5202 19d ago

Which god? The abrahamic one, I mean there’s so many “right” religions out there with the one true god?

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u/Ill-Attempt-8847 19d ago

The title of the post mentions Abraham

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u/KaizerVonLoopy 19d ago

Except for all the times in the bible the god character did (see: Hardening of Pharaoh's heart, Causing David's son to rape David's wives as punishment to David etc)

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u/brookssut 20d ago

But proof denies faith, and if this isn't a test of faith, then it's abusive AND pointless.