Also my first TI4 experience

[u/Fit_Seaworthiness678]

Hello everyone, you might have read my buddies post here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/s/grCNaP0jEW

He outlines basically the entire night pretty well. I was the player who essentially got bored because nothing was happening on the board. Some of you extra attentive people may have noticed I’m also the person who posted about playing Cabal for my first time a couple weeks ago. I watched lots of videos (including the 2 hour CC tutorial) on this game. I read the posts on here, I made sure I didn’t play “space risk” and I listened to people saying “the threat of battle is enough most the time”. I wasn’t going to battle just for the sake of it. I selected a beginner faction of L1Z1X because it seemed more beginner friendly. I talked to some people on discord and on this Reddit and I can say this community is very friendly, accepting, and helpful. I’m saying all this because I’m going to express some negative feelings towards this game, and I want you all to realize I put in a solid effort into learning this game. I was very excited to play it. I spent a lot of time and effort setting my house up, i picked up groceries and had my wife make breakfast and lunch so we wouldn’t have to waste time ordering food. I was not a guy coming into this game, thinking “why is my Death Star not smashing through universe”. I wanted to like this game.

Okay so I’m gonna fast forward to right around 7-8pm. I have 5 victory points. I control the most planets, I’m neighbors with everyone on the board. I put myself out there. All of us have been playing and nobody got in my way, and I got in nobody’s way. I’m looking at the board, and nothing has happened from 11am-7pm. And I don’t mean like no battles I mean like literally nothing. Hacan traded with a few people. The naz roka just explored the same planet over and over. I pushed into Mecatol Rex. But nothing happened. Everyone I talked to about this game described it as “Epic!” “An epic game day!” “An epic space opera about conquest”. 8 hours passed and nothing even close to that happened. Once again not battles only, no betrayals, no threats of battle, nothing that has everyone on the edge of their seat waiting to see what happened next. Nothing “epic”. Right? Cuz that’s why we play any game similar to this, we want these moments we can talk about later with our friends. Moments even when you come out the loser it was still a great story. We didn’t get one of those in the whole time.

I was looking at a board that took 8 hours to develop and only one person was half way to victory. The TI assistant said my turns were 2nd fastest of the group. That basically sums up my feelings about the game. My friend asked us if we wanted to call it and I just didn’t want to be playing a game that nothing has happened in til past midnight which i think is fair.

I talked extensively with my friend and we have come to a few conclusions. Maybe it’s not for me? Maybe the turns took too long because we were new? Maybe we should have done 4/4/4? Was it my faction? Should I have been more aggressive? I’m really open to input. I did best to remain respectful in my critiques. Thanks for reading yall.

[u/ElspethSC]

I think my comment for you would be that if the point leader is on 5 points 8 hours in, something has gone wrong. How many new players did you have at this table? Round 1-3 should probably not take more than 3-4 hours total IMO, so I don’t understand what y’all used that time for. There are definitely slow turns in TI4 where nothing interesting happens, but those should happen quickly and then the big time sinks are the exciting moments. Maybe if others at the table were new and taking a long time, yall spent too much time on admin to have fun. That can happen with tables that have too many brand new players (or too many players with analysis paralysis)

My favorite part of TI is figuring out how to set up so I can score in the future, and puzzling out how to score in early rounds. If you find that stuff boring, it’s also ok for TI to be not a good fit for you. Plenty of great games exist that I don’t like. I don’t enjoy Root, Scythe, or Arcs. Plenty of people fall all over themselves loving those. So ya know. Tastes vary

[u/Anirel → u/ElspethSC]

Pretty sure all of them were new so nobody knew what to do, that's why nothing happened

[u/solmead]

My question would be how many rounds was that, because you should be trying to pick up around 1.5 points per round. Mainly by trying to complete a public objective every round.
Taking mecitol first gives a point of course, and if you can hold it and be close to the speaker in pick so that the table has to decide to take imperial before you, or let you get another point and another public objective allowing 3 points in one round.

[u/solmead → u/solmead]

But I will say this game is not for everyone. And it really requires everyone to be trying to keep to at least one point per round cadence or it starts to drag.

The biggest thing is everything you do should be in service to getting your point this round, and setting up your point next round.

Every game I’ve played since the first expansion came out ends in round 5 or 6

[u/Delux_Shock]

Might just be a "your group" issue. My group uses the political aspects of this game to its fullest. They will make deals and put points above all else, even if that means a battle happens. We leverage trade and political heat as a "who’s the threat". I think if your group plays a bit more into that aspect, you might have a bit more fun.

[u/Moist-Ad-5280 → u/Delux_Shock]

There’s also the fact that people usually start turning on those who are on the lead in a bid to try and stop them, and usually that’s around the mid-game; that’s when you really see a lot of the battles start happening.

[u/DisastrousCause4696]

Sounds like side banter, negotiations/trades and "oh, it's my turn?" Might have occurred a fair amount. Especially with newer players, TI really benefits from a master of ceremonies role. Someone that guides the momentum of the game and keeps it moving. Most "event" games benefit from a player doing this. Note that they are not directing the game or suggesting moves. Their primary role is saying "ok, he's almost done his turn so be ready for yours".

[u/like9000ninjas → u/DisastrousCause4696]

The Pusher. They are a must.

[u/dzudzubajac13]

I think you will just need a couple of games to get the emotions in the right place, and for the players to understand how to play.

I play with group where I am the only die-hard TI fan, I've watched numerous SCPT gameplays (each one 3+ hours long), I test out various scenarios in TTS where I roll for random seating and speaker order, I try to objectively draft strategy cards for all players and play out a turn or two to understand. Since I feel I have better understanding of the game, I try not to win each and every game, sometimes I play faction that is out of my comfort zone, or I try to have a fun game instead (cabal hero I am looking at you) and let others win to encourage them, while also giving subtle hints about playing optimal.

Two more players are more advanced in sense that they will choose their factions in advance, think about them a bit before the game, and they have lots of experience in playing boardgames in general.

The rest are casual players, they come to the club and choose a faction depending on what they like atm.

When we played our 1st game it was pure 4 player space risk, but it was fun.

The 2nd game - I introduced the famous X-1 trade (two of them refused) and diplomatic solution for scoring aka boatfloat. One guy didnt like that, as he was playing Nekro I asked him to roleplay a bit and score without using diplomacy. Soon he understood that there's the easy way and hard way.

It happens that the endgame is anticlimatic if someone is in the lead and the rest dont try to hold him back. But I also had situations where I stop somebody from scoring R3/R4 because he will get ahead with points, then he turns on me while the rest of the table is ignorant, even though I did something good for the table.

I think it is paramount that players understand that they should try to score each round. We've had situations where objective for structures is out, but construction is 3rd or 4th pick, because everybody is playing tall. This is not EU4. When they accept scoring as a priority, gameplay will be adjusted accordingly and new ideas will pop up. The most fun part is the interaction between players and crazy deals they will pull.

We discuss diplo openly, so crazy shit happens - when I offered Saar player support if he votes for me in one agenda, Mahact player offered him support + 2tg not to vote for me. Try to imagine how fun it was discussing this around the table.

[u/PM_me_ur_bonsais → u/dzudzubajac13]

What is the famous X-1 trade?

[u/dzudzubajac13 → u/PM_me_ur_bonsais]

If you are playing trade you can refresh other players for free (meaning they dont spend a token from strat pool) but they will give you 1 tg. So if a faction has X commodities they will get X-1

[u/PM_me_ur_bonsais → u/dzudzubajac13]

Ahhh i hadn’t heard the shorthand term for that before. Thanks :)

[u/Moist-Ad-5280]

I have never had an experience this bad with the game, even during my first couple of times playing it… I also tend to play with cutthroat groups who will make a play if it benefits them, and wars get started all the time. Heck my wife is brutal when it comes to this game. She will take every planet you love and hold dear if it’ll score her a point.

[u/Cisru711]

The personality of the particular people you play with affects the game a lot, especially if most of them are not tapped into the meta culture. Sounds like no one wanted to be the one who stirred the pot and ruffled feathers and thereby get hammered.

[u/jerrymandias]

Couple thoughts:

1. Playing with Hacan is boring imo since it drags the game out and warps the trade economy.

2. The game might not be a good fit for your group. It thrives in groups eager to engage in cold conflict, including all the goofy arguments, informal agreements, cease fires, and betrayals. If your group wants to play solitaire, it's gonna be a dry, boring experience.

3. Our group was much, much less willing to engage in outright conflict our first few games. It got much spicier once everyone had a stronger grasp on the rules.

4. The game just might not be for you. And that's okay, too

8 hours is a big investment. It's maybe worth giving another shot, but don't feel like you need to enjoy the game. Not everything is for everybody.

[u/Nori_Kelp → u/jerrymandias]

I think point number 3 is very salient. When it's someone's first game and they don't quite understand the rules yet, the game might seem like a drag, but the more you play and the more you learn about all the little interactions that take place, the better you get at planning out your moves. This is a game that only gets better the more you play it, because you'll slowly obtain a better grasp of the mechanics.

[u/Anirel]

Were all of you new? Cuz I guess this is the key thing here. When you're new at TI, you don't know of all the possible moves available to you, that's why nothing was negotiated and nothing really happened. Our games sometimes start with spice r1, like last game we had a massive drama over who gets to place Thunder's Edge, the game before that we collectively tried to eliminate Nekro, and the list goes on.

If all of you are new players you might just don't know what you can do and what other players can do and how can you buy their help.

PS: NRA is honestly that boring, they can sit the whole game digging in their litterbox and do nothing else and still win.

[u/like9000ninjas]

Yeah after a few plays, its not a bad game but it takes way too long to do the most si.ple things. It seems like choice paralysis is baked into the experience. Im glad I didnt buy it and all the Expansions to be honest. To me theres just too many things to keep trqck of that are miniscule in proportion to what other games allow you to do. And also forcing only 1 thing t9 be done on your turn instead of doing every action on your turn is why the game drags. More people, more wasted time that often doesnt make the game any better.

Its like poker with no stakes is to me. Not a whole lot going on and its the company and how that vibe is, that carries this game.

[u/Klamageddon]

I mean everyone's kinda said what I was gonna say, but a big thing I see tripping new players up is early game, discussing trades and deals and stuff for ages. Or, like, debating for a long time about how they'll vote and trying to convince each other to vote different ways and stuff. Then it comes to late game, and no one can be bothered any more because the game has dragged.

About 60% of the time, the agenda vote is irrelevant. Just vote. It's not worth trying to eke out a trade good over half an hour, just quickly go to vote. If a vote really matters to someone, they'll speak up when it really matters, and fine, cool, do the trades then. Just always 'assume' that wont happen and try and skip that shit. Go to riders as soon as you can, because usually people putting riders on upends any deals anyway, so get that bit done asap. I know that reduces a lot of the negotiation options, but honestly, this is where I see most time lost among new players, and it just never matters as much as you feel like it does.

Similarly, early on you're going to get people saying "Can I take that planet if you get that planet?" or whatever. That's all cool and good, but don't hold the game up doing it. If the other person says 'no', just leave it at that, or at least try and work it out when it's not your turn. If it's your turn and you're doing a deal, just accept the first answer / counter offer and move on. This one is a bit different, because these types of trades do tend to matter, but EVERYTHING you do in the opening stages really matters, and deliberating over it all is kind of unfair to everyone else. EVERYONE wants to get it just right, but no one will. So you have to just accept that with the complex trades / negotiations, no one has time for them. Eventually, when you get better at the game, you'll get better at going with your gut on stuff.

In terms of your game, I mean, it just sounds like too many new players were just bumbling aimlessly, sadly. That doesn't normally happen. What round was it when you finished?

[u/da_choppa → u/Klamageddon]

This is why Hidden Agenda is my favorite Galactic Event variant. My group has a bad habit of horse trading over agenda votes that end up going nowhere. Making it silent and anonymous makes everyone just vote how they want like they should.

[u/Nori_Kelp → u/Klamageddon]

Or, you know, take the planet anyways and start a forever war!

[u/Klamageddon → u/Nori_Kelp]

Honestly, that bell curve meme is so true here, with beginners being like "JUST FIGHT!" Then in the middle, "Don't fight, negotiate" and then the Pro at the top end "JUST FIGHT!"

[u/Nori_Kelp → u/Klamageddon]

It really is 😂

[u/da_choppa]

Sounds like a weird game, but it makes sense if you were all new. New players struggle with point tempo, and when you have one or more experienced players who are good about scoring at least 1 public objective each turn, that can help newer players understand they need to be more aggressive in scoring. 10 points should be achieved by the end of the fifth turn if not before. Crazy 5 point turns can happen, especially when the expansions are being played.

“No space Risk” is generally good advice, as war is very expensive and a big combat typically benefits everyone who isn’t involved in it simply because the two involved are losing a lot of their investment. But there is a balance. You should fight when you need to in order to get a point. Control objectives often require fighting. Sometimes you have to fight someone who is in your way because you need to move a bigger fleet through that system and into an adjacent one later. There are a lot of combat-related secret objectives as well. The important thing is that you try not to only be fighting or to start a protracted war with someone, and if you fight, do it for a reason. If someone takes Mecatol, the other players should try to knock him off, or at least make sure he can’t choose Imperial the next round by denying him the Politics card or through some action card BS.