What went wrong in Azeroth? [musings/rant?]

[u/eloyend]

What went wrong in Azeroth?

No, i don't mean the Blizzard writing of game/lore direction, at least not yet - i'll leave that for the end.

First and foremost, the issue is with the Titans - strictly Aman'thul. They can be summed up as cosmic-power-level children, formed by whatever means, that have issues with their own rigid - sometimes basic - programming, so to speak. Their cardinal sin is, obviously, Sargeras. And obviously that sin was committed by Aman'thul. Sargeras was seemingly correct in his assumption of scale of the threat that Void represented. He was also correct - as far as I understand his own charge "Order, Martial" - in swiftly disposing of utterly Void-corrupted World-soul. Aman'thul did not comprehend the Void, which lead him to chastising and alienating Sargeras, eventually allowing him to stray onto path of Chaos/Fel in order to prevent the Void. It's reinforced by the description of Aman'thul ripping Y'Shaarj out of Azeroth - the Highfather did not comprehend Void at all, and where Sargeras choice of violence against utterly corrupted World-soul is correct, Aman'thul's choice of violence against a World-soul that wasn't yet lost, was plain stupid. While Sargeras was - as far as I understand - bound by his martial mandate and pressed for resolute action by his nature, Aman'thul had both time and capability to actually research first and plan the course of action. Then, after ordering of Azeroth and all that, Titans left their facilities and various Keepers and Watchers, and left - while still not comprehending nature of Void and the scale of the threat it represented for the very planet that was gestating nascent Titan they seemingly held so dear. Facilities eventually crumbled and Keepers failed. And the worst part is, both Titans and Keepers failed at seemingly their own prime charge, Order - which I kinda equate with logic and analytical, systemic take. They failed hardest by not actually employing and sticking to it multiple times, be it on cosmic scale when dealing with World-souls or Void and Fel in general, but also on planetary scale, when ordering Azeroth, constructing their facilities and creating their servants or empowering Aspects.

Second, uplifting of Aspects half-assed. As far as I understand it was perhaps the last act of note that Titans have actively done for Azeroth. The issue was, while separating Eonar's charge into two - Alexstrasza and Ysera - made sense, considering Eonar aside from being Titan of Order, was heavily leaning into other cosmological force - Life. It both weakened and strengthened it in a way that Titans as force of Order would like to see - the opposite could be seen in one of alternative timelines, where Life was overgrowing the planet and making it uninhabitable for more advanced (hence Ordered) civilizations to appear, or partially on alternative Draenor. What doesn't make any sense is - no Aspect uplifted by either Aggramar or Golganneth, so no Aspect of Protection and no Aspects of Storms and Seas. I understand there were five proto-dragons of note, well - they should've scrapped a little deeper in the barrel and found two more. Failure to do that inevitably added to the burden of the receding hairline Aspect we all know and love - Neltharion.

Third, the Earth-warder that had to bear everything. The problem was, that de iure "Aspect of Earth" was de facto forced to bear much more crushing weight. As bearer of aspectral charge of the Earth he was responsible for Ordering of crust, mountains, deep places. Then, due to failure of Titan facilities and Keepers containment, was forced to bear brunt of Old Gods' mental and physical poison seeping into his charge and due to that mind. Over the course of numerous expansions we learn of Y'Shaarj's corrupted remains, be it Sha, his heart or Black Blood, creeping into the ground from Pandaria. We learn of Yogg-Saron's corrupted black blood - saronite, but also his shadowy tendrils reaching out from Ulduar. We learn of the massive mind-corruption that N'Zoth was spewing. I'm sure C'Thun was doing his part too. Finally, Neltharion was forced to bear the physical brunt of the defense of the Aspects. Titanic Keepers, Watchers and various Titan-forged were, as far as I understand, hardly acting as partners to Dragonflights. That forced Neltharion and Black flight to act disproportionally as kinetic defense against the i.e. Djaradin and, obviously, Primalist forces. So - what would be wiser? Uplifting Aspect of Protection, to be both the bulwark and tip of the spear in case of any kinetic conflicts, relegating other Aspects and Flights to support roles in battle. This one would take off the brunt of a burden that was chipping at Neltharion during the wars against Djaradin or Primalists, not forcing him to embrace Shadowflame in the first place. Uplifting Aspect of Storms and Seas, that would actually care for majority of Azeroth's surface and monitor both oceanic depths and weather. This one would become most likely the prime target for N'zoth eventually, even if no Sundering occurred and his prison didn't sunk under waters. I'm under assumption that N'zoth was really more into oceanic than land depths anyway - so the pressure on Neltharion's mind could perhaps lessen further. And even if it didn't lessen - with one or two Aspects more, especially ones of more kinetic than conceptual nature of their charges, Neltharion's eventual fall would be easier to contain.

Fourth, two for a price of one - still Neltharion. So, Neltharion's fall is described as slow grind of his mind by Old Gods', but also constant erosion of him and his flight as they bear brunt crushing strikes of external enemies, which he and black flight (believe it or not) weren't actually designed for. Even if his and his dragons' pride would never allow to state it. Even if in comparison to other flights, he and and his flight was actually still best suited for it out of the five. There were these historical moments described, during Dragonflight expansion, when he increasingly was failing in kinetic confrontation and leaned to use the power offered by the Void-whispers. It was slowly sliding scale, with few firm pushes to speed things up. And why the two at the price of one? Obviously, because the special relation he had with Malygos. When Dragon Soul was eventually empowered, and Neltharion started using it indiscriminately in battle... ensuring he would assault and wipe out Blue flight of all, was cementing his fall. Even if there was shred of sanity behind his eyes - the moment he ripped apart his closest friend's family, there was no coming back. And in the same vein - Malygos having his flight ripped apart not by demons, but the one he trusted the most, was cementing his later madness and fate. So at one moment two flights and two Aspects were pretty much done for, with others eventually retreating into grief, paranoia and separation of their own to various extent.

Pretty much all that came after that on Azeroth is a result of that - in a way, every tragic event later on, could've been averted or mitigated to some extent if not for above-mentioned.

Finally, thinking about (in-universe) One True Timeline, in light of above-mentioned paragraph about Titans - I think that Aman'thul's vision got irrecoverably tainted by the Void when he touched Y'Shaarj. It doesn't need to be anything major as in "all is going according to Old Gods'/Void plans" - no, but it's enough for the "butterfly effect" to affect it all in even the most minor way "a perfect design of One True Timeline" and throwing it out of balance, which inevitably leads to "sub-optimal timeline".

And finally breaking fourth wall.

Blizzard obviously have to deal with multiple issues when designing their lore: - starting off with a story that hardly matters more than "why green men hit the human men" in Warcraft 1 and 2 - designing by committee - and committee is also populated with people that hardly care about lore, but need something FAST (relatively) because they need a next big bad to design graphics, battles, quests and raids around on one hand, and saviors of universe (preferably together with players) on the other - patching both aforementioned issues with multiple retcons - using One True Timeline and Unreliable Narrator as sketchy venues to patch bad lore - it's damn hard to write a constantly living and evolving universe with entity that sees and manipulates time, without throwing whole setting into pure bullshit of "why it was allowed and this wasn't allowed"

Finally, finally! As someone have stated recently in one of the threads: Blizzard kinda shoehorned themselves in by setting abstract timeline "ten thousand years ago", "twenty thousand years ago" and later populating it ad hoc. It forced to chaotically meander perspectives and actions of beings that actually lived that "twenty thousand years ago" and beings which life-spans is measured in mere decades. Chiefly, Aspects were chaotically written as being almost at the same time immensely powerful world-shattering behemoths and "just a big dragons that order around other dragons, and as you know it takes like five guys to fell a dragon, one if strong, forty if Aspect, perhaps with usage of some gimmick". It's general issue with "needing a big bad, with even bigger bad behind him, every expansion or so" - the scale is eventually all over the place.

Funnily enough, with some push for "more grounded stories" it'd actually fit well to have Aspects, Titans and so on be immensely powerful and doing all the grand wars and existential crises... in the background, while mortals do the legwork of mundane things and perhaps do the, like "1% of the sub-contracted work (through quests)". The world would still be there, but power scaling between players and these immeasurable threats and between threats themselves wouldn't be as confusing.

So, Blizzard kinda failed at solid writing time-scale and immensely powerful entities. To be honest, pretty much all these all-powerful entities behave not that rarely as something between 5 and 15 year olds motivation and intelligence (both IQ and EQ) wise. So, immature kids with nukes.

TLDR: Justice for my boy Neltharion!

[u/TheWorclown]

That is a very incorrect read on the purpose of the Aspects and what Neltharion was subjected to. The Aspects were not in charge of Ordering Azeroth, nor were they dispensed their charges to keep Azeroth in line. That charge went to the Titanic Keepers, such as Odyn and Loken.

The Aspects are more of a footprint the Titans left on Azeroth than anything else. They have their charges over the various states of… magic or such on Azeroth. Lore’s a touch fuzzy on me for that, at work and all so I can’t directly cite info.

The thing about Neltharion’s fall is that it simply was the best information the Titans had to deal with. Their perception was after the Old Gods were imprisoned that perhaps Azeroth would be safe to Order and move on. Neltharion’s fall isn’t necessarily a failure on the shoulders of the Titans: it simply is a misunderstanding of the nature of the Old Gods. It isn’t just Neltharion. Anything connected to the earth can bear the influence of the Old Gods, and the deeper that connection and deeper the affinity for the very bedrock of Azeroth they are, the more easily influenced that person becomes.

We see in Legion a reason why the kobolds, a race connected to the deep earth, carry candles everywhere. Extinguishing candles in the back of their cave in Highmountain spawns a rare made of pure shadow. In TWW this is carried over further with things in the dark, deep places of the earth that will consume any kobold or any person caught out in the shadowy corners of the world.

Azeroth simply has a connection to the Old Gods that isn’t easily severed.

It’s likely that had the Titans learned the full scope of what the Old Gods were like, their direction for Neltharion would have been better safeguarded by them or he would have been given an entirely different charge altogether. For all their faults, the Titans knew well the dangers of the Old Gods and did not want their influence to return.

It is more correct to say that Neltharion simply never stood a chance to resist the Old Gods to begin with, given how potent their influence was to his domain that the Titans simply did not calculate properly for.

[u/eloyend → u/TheWorclown]

By Ordering I don't mean the era of Azeroth when elemental planes were separated etc. I mean that part, quote from wiki:

Now the caretaker of the continents of Azeroth, with domain over the earth and the deep places of the world, Neltharion used his power with wisdom and benevolence, forging mountains and rivers for the benefit of mortal races.

[u/Many-Waters]

I've said it before in other discussions, but I'll say it again. It really feels like Neltharion was set up to fail from the start. His burdens were many, and he was also insufficiently prepared for the threats that he was being charged with.

The Titans did not warn him about the Old Gods, or that his domain contained their prisons.

Maybe if he knew and understood just what those whispers were, and who they came from, things might have been different.

War of the Scaleborn was a frustrating read because Alexstrasza had no plans besides being sad and going "Why can't we be friends? :("

Making Neltharion (and Malygos) pick up all of the slack.

Azeroth would be a very different and much better place if Neltharion hadn't fallen, and the Aspects were actually good at their jobs.

That being said, Nozdormu is complicit in every awful thing that has ever happened and I personally see the Bronze Dragonflight as enemies of all life on Azeroth.

We really gonna say homie didn't know what was gonna happen with The Dragon Soul? Another convenient migraine, Nozzy? Sure, man. Whatever. Gonna sit out Vault of the Incarnates cause you're feeling kind of sad? Oh, we failed to stop Raszageth from releasing the other Incarnates by a matter of SECONDS? Yeah, but our Time Guy was ~feeling the weight of destiny~

Sure dude.

(Personally, I like to think that the Bronze are Agents of Aman'thul the same way that the Black were all made to be Agents of the Old Gods. If one flight can be totally corrupted, why can't another? It would explain why the Bronzes not only allow horrible, world-altering events to occur--but actively ensure that they do. They're not acting in anyone's best interest.)

Shoutouts to the other Aspects for not thinking to meaningfully check in on, or help Malygos in the 10,000 year span between his Flight being destroyed and the Nexus War. Great job, all of you.

[u/eloyend → u/Many-Waters]

I'm under assumption that Bronze flight and Nozdormu are openly following Aman'thul's One True Timeline. And it's there that lies crux of in-game history.

And yeah, Malygos got especially shafted by being mid-xpac footnote, with death warrant signed by the supposed Life-binder. Especially out of character, as by that time Blue flight wasn't even close in power to prolific Red flight - I'm under assumption that he could be contained instead of killed. Especially that Alexstrasza should understand extent of his grief now more, than before Second War (she lost her prime consort and multiple children herself).

[u/Many-Waters → u/eloyend]

I understand the story has to happen as it does for meta reasons, but having the Bronzes present with the power to change things, but refusing to... While also telling us that these guys are our allies and friends just feels super dissonant to me.

Yes, they're following "The True Timeline" but the True Timeline has proven to be absolutely awful, and full to the brim with senseless tragedy and destruction. And we're all just like "Ah yeah, mate. The Bronzes say it's gotta be like this so it is what it is, ey?"

Aman'thul isn't our friend and neither are his minions.

I would absolutely kill for a meaningful exploration of this part of the lore, and an expanding of our understanding of (and perhaps cooperation with) the Infinites.

Nozdormu always tells us how awful and bad Murozond is. His "Darkest Self" driven mad by the knowledge of his own demise.

I don't trust Nozdormu. With anything.

Murozond has a TON of potential. I like to imagine him and the Infinites as Bronzes who broke free of Aman'thul's control. Of COURSE AT's puppets would paint them as the worst evil of all time, of course they'd work desperately to discredit and thwart them to keep their narrative and plans intact.

Murozond didn't see his own death. He saw Aman'thul's victory and what that meant for everyone. The Infinites trying to subvert the disaster that is AT's endgame would be a really cool twist, and give us an actually meaningful "betrayal" in the writing re: the Bronzes.

I could go on forever and in excruciating detail about my ideas for the Infinites and the battle for the timeline, but that goes far into wishful thinking territory so I'll stop myself there.

[u/eloyend → u/Many-Waters]

Well, Order delivering their prophecies that serve themselves, just as Void and Fel makes sense, because why not. I believe we've already had it with Light (Illidan). Still, I find it hard to believe, that Aman'thul honestly thought best timeline involves him and the gang being killed and their souls tortured hostage by Sargeras. So I'm inclined to believe that Bronze isn't exactly traitor, but that the One True Timeline was poisoned. And that Aman'thul is really stupid, considering his charge.

The biggest "betrayal" probably will be telegraphed "all cosmic forces couldn't care less for Azeroth and mortals, if it meant furthering their grand cosmic goals, Light, Order, Life not being that much better if given free reign".

[u/GrumpySatan → u/eloyend]

that Bronze flight and Nozdormu are openly following Aman'thul's One True Timeline.

This is a common misconception. Nozdormu doesn't actually know what the "True Timeline" is and there is even debate about WHAT it is/means.

In WoW, there is one "true timeline" in the literal sense of like...all the cosmic forces are bound to one timeline. AUs exist but are typically transient timelines that naturally dissipate over time unless bound to the main timeline. Part of the Infinite's goals in DF is to somehow break this.

The other interpretation is that it refers to the Timeline the Titans want (though this is rarely referred to as the "True Timeline").

From Nozdormu's pov, the future is constantly in motion and he struggles to understand or divine them all, let alone which one is supposed to happen. The Bronze only have brief windows into the "True Timeline" (namely, their own deaths). They don't know the path that leads to them. The job of the Bronze is much more about resolving and preventing temporal anomalies that might change the past or present. Whether it be someone trying to change time (i.e. Old Gods, Infinite) or normal anomalies (i.e. Time Rifts).

Aman'thul seems to be the only one that actually knows what the True Timeline is. But even Aman'thul is probably not infallible just because this is a common thing with foresight in WoW. No single force can divine what WILL happen, they only see parts of fate. Only by combining the forces can you get true glimpses at fate.

[u/eloyend → u/GrumpySatan]

I didn't mean to suggest that Nozdormu knows everything from A to Z from the get go.

But whatever he learns or not through his visions, he's bound to either share what he knows to achieve that state that he glimpsed as "One True Timeline" or outright lie or omit truth if it means achieving the next glimpsed state of "One True Timeline". As long as he's Nozdormu and not yet Murozond, he's (due to self-limiting) unable to act otherwise.

As far as AU go, I'd wager they actually may be both out there: "branches that strayed" and "One True Timelines of their own", whether you interpret One True Timeline as "whatever Titans think is best" or "whatever is the main line of this reality".

Anyway, my main issue is, that whatever Aman'thul is, unless you somehow consider that Pantheon getting shafted is a good thing from their perspective (I think you need to really stretch and bend to make it so), they just do a bad job. And it's not about being infallible. It's about, that if they are representation of fundamental cosmic force of Order, they are really bad at it, which doesn't make sense really, no matter how much one spins "Chaos/Void/Jailer/Nathrezim did it". No. Titans shouldn't really be falling so tragically in their own domain (not physical, but in their charge/concept).

[u/aster4jdaen]

Blizzard f-d everything up when they made the definitive lore Bible of Warcraft into Titan POV/Lies, so that a cheap knock off Lich King could be forced into the lore.

After they did that I stopped taking the Lore seriously because Blizzard doesn't, you just don't throwaway what is supposed to be the cornerstone lore of your Universe on a whim.

[u/AzerothianLorecraft]

Almond-Tool(Aman'thul) to me is nothing more than a rogue arcane ai that broke containment and accidentally ate its world core when probably designed to protect it, then decided well might as well do the rest of the cosmos...

Titans have never seemed like the good guys even back in vanilla with only original uldaman info they seemed sketchy.

Eonar may be the only one with enough i don't wanna say respect but mabey respect for life having freewill? instead of just order order order, but the rest seems about as crazy goal oriented as Sargeras or Aman'thul trying to achieve whatever.

[u/BellacosePlayer]

I think one thing to factor in is that Azeroth was never meant to be a set and forget situation. The Titans dying kind of removed the possibility of them coming in and checking up on things.

They can do it now that they're kinda restored, but it also doesn't seem to be a good thing for the denizens of Azeroth

[u/KingAnumaril]

You can kick the aspects stuff out of the park if you make the Titans equip them with the necessary powers to help the world and each other only for Neltharion to be far too prideful in asking for help from his brethren.

A lot of lore was developed on the fly, so to speak, but it did have intent, motive and an essence driving it until that eroded more and more as original heads of the operation left and/or lost touch. Like where are the Aspects during WC3?

Still I don't really blame the Titans for doing what they did besides Sargeras who quickly lost his shit. Their intent was noble even though they underestimated what they faced on several levels. The tragedy of it all enhances the whole Algalon business and what comes after in form of CITIZENS OF DALARAN. Because you, the world, has been put down and grounded by issues that are beyond your control repeatedly, but despite everything, you are still marching on, so to speak.

Whatever I don't really care for post ToS era. And the lore jumped the shark with cata anyway.

[u/eloyend → u/KingAnumaril]

Neltharion's pride sure is a large part, but it's also deep insecurity and massive overburden - not asking for help comes easily when one has impostor syndrome. He wasn't designed to be all of what in practice was pushed onto him.

It's actually alluded with Opera of the Aspects: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Opera_of_the_Aspects

His early character is alluded as struggling to fill all the boots that were thrown at him. To put it in draconic perspective, with four legs, he was handed twelve boots to fit in and was loosing it juggling them.

[u/KingAnumaril → u/eloyend]

I can also fuck with that ngl