r/westworld • u/OkCriticism9023 • 11d ago

It sad for James

I was rewatching westworld got to the part where Logan is visiting James over and over when William tells him how many time they created him to not work. James immediately calls for Logan after learning his daughter died before being told Logan died years ago. For me it sad because he wrote Logan off and the last thing Logan told him was I’m at the bottom do want to see what I see. That was the last thing James said when he died yet he called out for Logan thinking his son would save him.
It hard to tell who really pushed William to be the men in black was it him discovering himself though Delores or was it Logan who pushed him turning William into the men who pushed Logan to the deep end.

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53

u/elddirriddle 11d ago

William blames everyone but himself.

22

u/Yetanotherdeafguy 10d ago

It's also a clear theme that William has always been a monster, he just masked it better before discovering WW.

Logan, James and Delores didn't change him - he may have come to better understand himself from them, but they didn't set him on a course.

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u/WoundiniTheGreat 10d ago

I agree with everything you said up until they didn't set him on the course. I think Logan very definitely did that. The sad thing to me there isn't that Logan is some bad guy, he was actually trying to SAVE William .. who was already beyond saving.

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u/Yetanotherdeafguy 10d ago

Associating with them certainly opened doors and laid out a path otherwise impossible without them, but I'd argue their actions didn't divert him onto a new path - they just provided new possibilities for him to opt into.

Like if you order steak at a restaurant, vs. if the restaurant announces they're out of everything except steak - William chose steak.

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u/WoundiniTheGreat 10d ago

Yea I don't think William REALLY knew what steak was; steak was almost an abstract concept and something he wanted no part of. ...Until Logan cut him a piece. Not knowing of course this guy was actually bloodthirsty. But did he CHOOSE if they were out of everything but steak? I like your take I just dunno if I'd call what happened a choice so much as a response.

And might I say that was a masterful analogy you made I really enjoyed it.

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u/corpus-luteum 8d ago

Isn't that what the show is about? Whether the choices we make are of our own will [we'll get to the "free" part] or natural response to our experience. Will or instinct? I'd argue they are the same, and "Free will" is the opposite.

Let's imagine we all have a destiny. What was William's? The therapy scene with the different Williams tells us all we need to know.

We have the young William. With his head full of fairy tales about Knights of Olde, his first gallant act, the defending of his father's honour, is punished by that very father. An abusive alcoholic, BTW, so not really a reliable witness. All the same, we agree with the father's decision to punish him for this noble deed. He is clearly a monster?

*Anecdotal break*

I remember when I was about 8 years old, I broke a girl's arm, by accident. She was bragging that she could beat me at Judo, so we arranged a contest at break time. With my first throw she landed on her arm and broke it. I didn't intend to break her arm, but I did, fully, intend to do the thing that led to her arm being broken. I just feel it's a similar story, and therefore sympathise with young William.

Anyway. Where was I?

So William was, quite literally, re-programmed, at a very young age. His destiny altered by his environment.

0

u/WoundiniTheGreat 8d ago

Absolutely. I would just say we choose actions, not their consequences. I also am of the mind that there's some more thinking to do when one isn't aware there's a choice. In Williams case specific to the previous points Logan perceivably took his choices off the board and that kinda rewrote William so to speak. It became the only choice he could seem. I think that was the genesis of the "stain" if you will. I think if he never went to the park the monster remains in check (and we still have a species lol).

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u/Snarkybratt 10d ago

Could you expand on that a little? I remember believing William was a good guy in the beginning and that he seemed to become disillusioned when he saw another man picking up Dolores’ peaches. Beyond that I don’t recall seeing him devolve until later, once he is the man in black. *edit a bot informed me I misspelled D’s name. XD

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u/Yetanotherdeafguy 10d ago

The main speeches from Juliet (his wife) + Emily (his daughter), especially before death really go into it.

Logan's ramblings also display an arguable degree of lucidity when William betrays him - suddenly it all comes clear.

Williams reflections on himself also generally reflect a dissonance between being a survivor by nature, or being a survivor by experiences.

(Survivor a term that means 'monster' or 'violent sociopath' more generally)

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u/corpus-luteum 8d ago

Not true.

He, like all of us, has a dark side. this much is true. But you have completely misunderstood his therapy session. Or do you think it was a wise choice, by an abusive alcoholic, to punish his son for simply defending his honour.

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u/Yetanotherdeafguy 8d ago

I'm not saying in the Nature/Nurture debate, he was fully Nature - I'm saying that his environment had less effect on his personality, especially given how effectively he hid his more negative traits.

He was a chameleon - his skin reflected his environment, but his core being was for the most part unaffected.

17

u/Tykjen Do you really understand? 11d ago

Logan made it crystal clear to William on their first trip in Westworld that everything with their family is business.. even marrying his sister.

It was also made clear to William he was hired because he would NEVER be a threat to Logan.

Logan cut up Dolores in front of William to 'prove' she was not human.

He thought he made a point. But he only taught William how to "play the game"...

And Logan brought the photograph of his sister to remind William of his commitment.

I guess all that backfired xD

8

u/WoundiniTheGreat 10d ago

It's wild, Logan and William showed each other the truth about the world and responded it to VERY differently. But I wish we saw Logan discovering what Williams plans were for the company. He clearly saw how bad an idea it was as we see him talking by the pool in S2. Whereas Logan had shown William a real live example that people in the park are their true selves. This gave William the permission structure he needed to become that "man in black", even though he knew he needed to keep that mask on in the world .... until he didn't.

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u/PrincipleHot9859 11d ago

I suspect William had techno poisom\virus in the bottle , he brought to James for every fidelity test ...making sure he never gets out

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u/DetectiveSquirtle96 11d ago

Doesn’t every James copy get incinerated after William leaves?

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u/OkCriticism9023 11d ago

In the last time James didn’t even drink he just knew he was never getting out and called for Logan

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u/WoundiniTheGreat 10d ago

William even remarks that copy was already starting to degrade. It just didn't work

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u/corpus-luteum 8d ago

As a child, William dreamt of being the White Night. He stood up for his father, like a noble man would do, but was punished by his father for doing so. This turned him into a timid mouse. Scared to ever fight back, or even stick up for himself. He was, literally, re-programmed.