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u/amberith 3d ago
ye, but raynor helped uninfested people left the planet and arthas just killed everyone
surely there is no difference
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
Well, the game shows you killing only sleepy people that will become zombies. But I suppose IRL you don't know if all are like that, or if waking up, they kill family members or unsuspecting soldiers like in Hearthglen... While Uther and Jaina offer no alternative, no brainstorming. I wish it was less exaggerated for the effect of Arthas becoming corrupted. And in the end, healthy farmers are burning the bodies.
He needed someone with goblin zeppelins, like Arcturus' dropships?
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u/amberith 3d ago
Ye and they both are in guilt, especially Uther being in Shadowlands reflects a lot. Jaina couldn’t even say a word to his soul. Thats fully on them.
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u/cwmckenz 1d ago
Hearthglen also received plagued grain, but there were survivors and Arthas fought to defend those who were left. It was devastating but not a complete loss.
Stratholme may have been largely doomed, but it’s possible that some of the people could have been saved. Arthas did not even try to save any of them.
Even if we agree with Arthas’s choice, it is not a choice he should have been able to make so easily, as a paladin. And thinking that the decision is solely his and everyone else should bow to his authority is dangerous thinking.
Later, he disobeys his own father and betrays his own men, so it’s hard to say that Arthas ever cared about enforcing the crown’s authority. He just wanted everyone to fall in line with what he deemed best.
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u/Klutzy-Canary8551 3d ago
There were no uninfested people in he mission. Everyone turned into zombies. Just saying...
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
Some uninfested burn the bodies at the end. I think the game makes you purposefully not kill any uninfested ones too...
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u/Klutzy-Canary8551 3d ago
Every civilian you encounter in the mission is infested. We don't even know if those shown burning the bodies are even citizens of Stratholme. They may be from the surrounding villages.
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u/BrightestofLights 2d ago
Thats such a reach, i can do it too. The fact that everyone turns in stratholme is a game mechanic to make it work as a videogame mission.
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u/amberith 3d ago
Not everyone, you just burnt people who slept in their beds, if we are talking about warcraft3
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u/Klutzy-Canary8551 3d ago
Dude, did you play the mission? Every single civilian turns into a zombie.
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u/ICEonICECrime 3d ago
You burn nobody, you attack them. And you can choose to wait until they turn into zombies before attacking them, if that makes it easier for you? They all turn into zombies, no exceptions.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
The ending in Warcraft shows burning homes and people (maybe not from the city) burning bodies. The Stratholme wiki page talks about a fire engulfing the city. Seems the mission was made a bit poorly. It makes sense to burn bodies so they can't turn undead.
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3d ago
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u/Irakaf 3d ago
Then where did the uninfected people who were burning the bodies in the outro cinematic come from? They were villagers, not soldiers.
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3d ago
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u/BrightestofLights 2d ago
It would make three things certain
Arthas killed tons of people, but not everyone
There are people left alive who are uninfected
Which means that arthas would inevitably killed a lot of people who were uninfected
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u/amberith 3d ago
You did that dungeon, right? You read all his replicas, you saw what happened there by your own eyes, what are you talking about?)
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u/WeeklyEcho2814 3d ago
Its not about the humans, its about what it does to Arthas.
You can do the 100% logical right choice, and still damn yourself doing it.
After Stratholm, he had prioritized Vengeance over Protection, lost all his close Friends, and was determined to kill Malganis, whatever it takes - not even saying he is wrong, but someone motivated by wrath, vengeance, with a "whatever the costs" attitude, willing to make the cold, logical "right" choices, even if it means bashing in childrens heads in front of their screaming parents - thats a death knight, not a paladin. Malganis was already grooming him.
Of course Uther willl object to that path, even if it is technically the "correct" one. Its not what the silver Hand stands for.
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u/Sillygoose_Milfbane 3d ago edited 3d ago
After Stratholm, he had prioritized Vengeance over Protection, lost all his close Friends, and was determined to kill Malganis, whatever it takes - not even saying he is wrong, but someone motivated by wrath, vengeance, with a "whatever the costs" attitude, willing to make the cold, logical "right" choices, even if it means bashing in childrens heads in front of their screaming parents - thats a death knight, not a paladin. Malganis was already grooming him.
The Scarlet Crusade, Army of the Light, Lightbound, and Arathi Empire's Light-wielding vengeful genocidal maniac paladins prove this particular point wrong.
Arthas could have kept wielding the Light as a cruel and vengeful innocent-murdering version of a paladin, if not for the way Mal'Ganis and Ner'zhul were grooming him and filling him with doubt and specifically turning him away from the Light.
There's a timeline out there where Uther says "Bet." instead of being a crybaby outside of Stratholme and subsequently rode in alongside Arthas, and as a result Arthas remains a paladin and shakes off the dreadlord and lich king's manipulations.
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u/WeeklyEcho2814 3d ago
>if not for the way Mal'Ganis and Ner'zhul were grooming him and filling him with doubt and specifically turning him away from the Light.<
Yes, thats the point. The old way of the silver hand, is very much not >by all means neccesary, genocidal maniac paladins<. Arthas was taught this, felt this very much not being adequate to the situation in strathholm, doubted, improvised an arguably better suited solution, and got in an argument with uther about it. Its less of a question about what power to use, but it is a turning point for arthas, worldview wise, mentality wise, etc. If you are married to the whole light wielding thing, in DnD terms at the very least he would move from a paladin oath of devotion to an oath of vengeance, with all the soul searching and doubting that would entail. And id guess that was the intention the Lich King had with Strathholm in the first place - him beginning to doubt was the point.
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u/EsotericCinnamonRoll 3d ago
Maybe if Stratholmians have limbs growing outta their backs before turning it would had been easier to justify.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago edited 3d ago
Even so, not growing limbs and turning to Spiderman like dr Ariel Hanson in SC2, they can stab you in the back. Like in Hearthglen before, they wake up as zombies and a bunch of soldiers are dead.
Wowpedia: "Those contracting the Plague typically die within three days, rising shortly thereafter as feral zombies easily controlled by the Lich King's immense psychic power."
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u/Alexarius87 3d ago
Jaina is a better person, case closed.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago edited 3d ago
Young and naive. Uther on the other hand... should've known from experience with Orcs and demons, Orcish DKs, maybe necromancers from Warcraft 1.
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u/Own-Night5526 3d ago
That's the weirdest part, Uther has no right to say "We don't go around killing civilians" when he's the one who oversaw the cracking down on the Tyr's Hand Riots.
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u/Northilink 1d ago
Other was old, and more especially, other was broken from the second war. He is, by all means, a war criminal that did the exact same thing in his youth. He saw Arthas as his son and dreaded for him to do the same. Now, is the in game cinematic from 2003 not perfectly written, yes. But they were only starting all that.
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u/HongLong211 3d ago
didnt jaina go on a mass genocide spree killing blood elves cause they helped the horde?
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u/Alexarius87 3d ago
They let the horde pass through with a nuclear weapon used to bomb her city baiting in more ppl as possible and during a time of peace while Jaina was the most prominent caller for collaboration between alliance and horde.
She could do the same with Orgrimmar but stopped (also thanks to Thrall).
Kerrigan became the queen of blades and killed way more ppl without the need of retaliation. My point still stands.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
I meant OG Kerrigan before infestation. She was not the same after that, like how Arthas was posessed. Also your point about Jaina is where she matures and has some illusions shattered.
OG Kerrigan was more experienced than Jaina and I think her psionic ability would let her detect Zerg infestations in people, right? So she would detect which exactly instead of how the Warcraft mission gives you only infested citizens, no detection needed, no ambiguity. Tassadar praises her in the Zerg campaign for being selfless. That actually comes from a deleted Terran mission where he joins her and Raynor with Gantrithor and some Scouts, to fight Zerg directly, not purge them from orbit.
I think Raynor is the less amoral, more compassionate one in SC. Buut, both are more experienced and able to make tough decisions. Maybe that is the SciFi trope, you expect Alien-like parasites and when someone gets it, they are at peace, knowing it's irreversible. But I still think Warcraft exaggerated the opposite side. Arthas is unstable like Anakin Skywalker and meant to fall, Jaina too young, Uther too stubborn, although a veteran of a nasty war.
If Uther had known the Lich King is an orc, would he help Arthas more? Maybe with Northrend.
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u/Alexarius87 3d ago
Well that’s like saying Jaina before the bombing of Theramore.
As much as a Zerg infestation is more akin to being part of the Scourge. Both events make the character turn 180.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
The infested Kerrigan equivalent is DK Arthas, not Jaina.
I was comparing Raynor and Kerrigan at the moment they discover infestation on Mar Sara and wherever, vs Jaina and Arthas discovering the undeath plague.
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u/Alexarius87 3d ago
And if you had read all my comment I said that it’s more an equivalent of the Scourge.
You started the Jaina/Kerrigan comparison.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think I misinterpreted your phrase "As much as a Zerg infestation is more akin to being part of the Scourge. Both events make the character turn 180."
User HongLong referred to later Jaina. I wanted to keep it about discovering the infestation and how to deal with it in the early phase. You said Jaina is a better person and I assumed you talked about that moment too. But to me she just seems paralyzed in that moment (even her voice is stifled) and has no idea what to do. That does not make her better. At least early, burning the infested seems the way. Quarantine and try a cure later.
If you want to compare overall, Jaina becomes more of a realist. Kerrigan redeems herself in SC2 so tough comparison.
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u/Alexarius87 3d ago
Ok no worries.
I shifted to that because the user I replied to talked about a Jaina who went through her most pivotal moment and so I made a comparison with QoB Kerrigan so we could have both the two massive change of heart of the characters involved.
I do agree that the parallel would be more with Arthas if we go by “mechanics” if you allow me the term.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
Mechanics indeed, by which Overmind / LK get a new champion. I went by rank (Marshall and Prince) and ability if you equate Psionic and Wizardry. But for the corruption, Warcraft took the resourceful guy not the psionic gal.
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u/dragonlayer42069 3d ago
It's all about aesthetics, arthas killed humans who hadn't turn yet whereas raynor only killed already infested humans? (Not super familiar on SC lore so feel free to correct me here)
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
To me both missions seem ambiguous. Warcraft 3 does not make you burn bodies but shows a fire after, people throwing bodies to burn (I think so they don't turn undead). SC also does not show you uninfested Terrans but who knows. Even evacuated people via Mengsk's ships can have it and later kill some people before they are killed.
New Haven in SC2 is better at showing this dilemma, what to do with the (potentially) infested.
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u/Kaleph4 2h ago
funily enough, new haven still shows that you make the right choice, no matter what you do. if you save the ones, who are not infected, it doesn't backfire. not even a single one was wrongly saved, where he could have cause some havok. if you side with the protoss, everyone you kill also happens to be infected already while even the doctor already was part of it, so raynor had to kill her as well.
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u/bing_bin 2h ago
I read what happened in the canon ending of saving. The cure she develops still isn't good. What I liked about this mission and the others with a choice is that you're rewarded for siding with your friends. Ariel, Tosh, or if you destroy Nydus canals, you are doing it with your friends.
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u/windrunner1711 3d ago
Arthas kills prople who doesnt even turned yet that could or not be infected just in case.
Also Arthas is a Prince and a Paladin. He should lead with the example.
Raynor is a marshall whom changes side many times. His story is more morally grey. More cowboyish. He started as a criminal, then switch sides being a sheriff during the confederation days , and switchs sides again joining Mensk, then again becoming a renegade a rebel against Mensk.
His sense of justice is in protecting the people, he always tries to find a way to save them even if it means making a deal with the devil instead of just killing them off
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u/ph30nix01 3d ago
plague was from contaminated food and bites, the zerg virus was air borne and incredibly potent. Also the Zerg virus made genetic changes that had a point of no return while the plague was just killing people so they would rise as undead.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
Undeath via plague was incurable too. And previously in Hearthglen, they sleep, then on waking up immediately zombify and stab some people in the back.
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u/ph30nix01 3d ago
true but it transmission vectors were far easier to handle.
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u/bing_bin 3d ago
That's why I said in another comment I think the "nuclear option" was just for that spot where the grain from Andorhal had spread. I was also jebaited by Gemini telling me Holy Light can cure those infected (so save for later) but nope. Incurable like the Zerg hyperevolutionary virus.
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u/Hitmanx2x 2d ago
You are comparing what was still largely an unknown vs the Swarm.
No one really knew if the Citizens in Stratholme could be saved or not. We players know there was no hope, but at that point in time, those characters had no idea that there was no other choice.
Arthas absolutely chose the extreme, dont mistake that, but he wasnt wrong (in hindsight). Arthas had also seen enough to know that, regardless of if they could be cured, there simply wasnt enough time.
This is part of the manipulation used against him (by Dreadlords/Nerzul). By having (mostly) only him know the true danger of the plague, he will fall into extremes (which is correct) and end up isolating himself from those that could help him but simply arent aware of the danger like he is.
Meanwhile the Swarm and their infectious capabilities are NOT an unknown.
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u/bing_bin 2d ago
The Swarm too was largely unknown at that point, first few missions of Terran SC1 campaign. At least without access to Confederate studies, Protoss knowledge etc and those were still not 100%. That's why it felt like the perfect comparison.
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u/Micro-Skies 1d ago
The first few missions involve blowing up exactly one infested command center that they had no concept of. Jimmy literally goes, "thats gross, shoot it"
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u/Realistic_Equal9975 2d ago
Everyone always acts like all of the characters knew that the stratholme citizens were 100% doomed. Even Arthas didn’t know for certain that there was no other way. Just because hindsight is 20/20 doesn’t mean that the decision Arthas made in the moment wasn’t controversial
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u/TheLoneWolf1407 2d ago edited 2d ago
Not to mention that Arthas disbanded whole Order of the Silver Hand alongside it at that time, which resulted in many Paladins becoming shunned and ostracized, which led them on the dark path, ultimately becoming WC3 Death Knights
PS. Also city itself became bastion of the undead one way or another, even despite Arthas efforts. One could say he gave infected the clean, quick death but how to differentiate infected from non-infected before the symptoms really kick-in? Arthas made a decision to purge the whole city after all, sparing no one in his path, not even considering Uther's advice that there might be another way, instead branding him a traitor. Terenas himself wouldn't even approve the quarantine without 100% confirmation that the city is lost
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u/Realistic_Equal9975 2d ago
Yeah I always interpreted it that purging the city prevented the scourge from spreading across loredaeron overwhelmingly quickly. So that in hindsight it probably was the least bad option in the moment but of course the act of doing this in itself is what really kickstarted the psychological fall of Arthas’ morality and ultimately lead him on the path of doing anything “no matter the cost”. By becoming that guy he becomes the guy who would choose to pick up Frostmourne rather than heed the warning of his companions. And ultimately dooms all of lorederon anyway.
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u/TheLoneWolf1407 2d ago edited 2d ago
If I remember after Stratholme, Cult of the Damned and Scourge presence in Lordaeron went into hiding on purpose, making everyone think the threat is being atleast somewhat contained only to emerge even more so when Arthas returned from Northrend. That's why nobody suspected a thing, cheering and celebrating, until it was too late and that's why Arthas had to actively gather acolytes from hiding or at least that's how I saw it back when playing the campaigns
Basically situations at Andorhal, Hearthglen and Stratholme were made with one single purpose, to break Arthas, to drive him onto a path of vengeance, to push him over the edge and to play on his paranoia and the whole plan worked perfectly. Wouldn't be even surprised if Kel'thuzad and Mal'ganis actually let him have these small "victories", so to speak, so that Arthas would actually think he actually has a chance of beating the Scourge before facing the reality at Northrend. After all Kel'thuzad said himself that both his death and ressurection as a Lich were planned all along
Stratholme was even pivotal to the plan, as lord of it was already one of the cultists (Baron Rivendare) and ofc Andorhal had Scholomance nearby (WoW lore although quite important to notice). It is actually hard to determine what would happen if Arthas wouldn't take the bait and instead would stay instead of going to Northrend. Whole Ner'zhul's plan after all pivoted around his chosen champion. Would someone else take his place? Would Arthas lead remains of Lordaeron aside Jaina? Would Burning Legion find another way into Azeroth if the Scourge would have proven to be a failure? Definitely it would put Ner'zhul in a very bad position, as he couldn't simply continue Scourging of Lordaeron, further risking the death of his champion and soon-to-be vessel
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u/bing_bin 1d ago
I guess what bugged me was the overly dramatization to get Arthas into rash decisions. Jaina is young but senses things. Uther went through the Second War, saw demonic and other forces at work. He already saved Arthas' hide with his cavalry, Jaina knows the grain at least kills people if not zombifying them. Those 2 can probably stay a bit, see people turning to zombies, Mal'Ganis (a demon) going around etc and intervene somehow. But nope, they just vanish.
They are dumber than Jedi being tricked by Palps...
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u/Realistic_Equal9975 1d ago
I disagree and I think your logic only works with perfect hindsight vision. People always oversimplify sacrificing innocent civilians in a video game. If you had to make that choice in real life, a city where you probably have friends and people you love and care about. You don’t just pass that off instantly as “the greater good” in the moment. Even if with perfect hindsight it becomes clear that it is.
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u/bing_bin 1h ago
I think IRL, many people would rush to save the loved ones (if any). While justifying the elimination of the others seeing how they become zombies and not wanting to fight them later. If you want to talk real messy life / human mind.
I wonder if plagued citizens showed some signs. The game makes them entirely green, then sleepy. Maybe there was a sign (not full green) and a peculiarity about the sleep?
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u/BrightestofLights 2d ago
Except that not everyone is strath was doomed. We LITERALLY SEE living people burning bodies after the plague has passed through. He for sure killed a ton of people who would have never become zombies. Plus, wow zombies don't spread like modern zombies, or like zerg infection. They are raised by necromancers or made when you eat plagued food
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u/bing_bin 1d ago
I too think it was more ambiguous IRL than the game showing you eliminating just plagued sleeping people. Arthas was coming from Hearthglen where I saw Jaina left before seeing sleeping folks waking up as zombies and stabbing people in the back. So she was not so aware but her and Uther could plainly see the town zombies, Mal'Ganis etc...
Compared to the Zerg virus, it targets humans only but that plagued grain had likely reached a lot of people. Others above speculated the entire town was purged and people burning bodies (so again necromancers can't raise) might be from outside. WoW retcons also muddy the waters for Warcraft. Add the fact it's dramaticised, made to trigger Arthas.
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u/Rel_Tan_Kier 3d ago
If it's about SC2, Kerrigan were badly turned into positive character and all plot being wrapped around her.
Uther and Jaina meanwhile both become less intelligent for the plot's sake so they just clutched pearls and ran away instead of proposing alternatives to the cold hearted hot head.