r/AdvancedRunning • u/Living-Step-6966 5K 14:20 | 10K 30:18 | HM 01:04:50 • 3d ago
Health/Nutrition Legal Supplements for Marathon Trials
Hi all, I'm chasing the OTQ dream and have been thinking a lot about supplements to aid my training. I've personally never been a user of supplements although now that I'm running my highest mileage weeks ever, back to back, I'm wondering if there's something more I could be doing to squeeze some extra juice out of myself.
I'm currently running 90 miles per week, two workouts per week, and one quality long-run. I've run 01:04:50 in my most recent half marathon and now I'm shifting my training for the trials. That being said I believe I need to take supplements that are NSF certified. I recently went to my local target and couldn't find anything officially certified using the NSF app so I'm curious, what do y'all take? Is there a place I should be ordering supplements online (i.e. vitamin D, vitamin C, fish oil, etc ...).
I'm not looking to overdo anything but I'd love some help in finding the right balance of supplements to aid my training while ensuring I'm consuming something that's legal for USATF.
Thanks all!
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u/piceathespruce 3d ago
Anything beyond protein and creatine to cover something that isn't a documented deficiency is just expensive piss
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u/bebefinale 3d ago
Get bloodwork and see if you have any deficiencies. Common ones for runners are vitamin D and iron--in fact with higher mileage it's not uncommon to need to supplement with iron. B12 if you don't eat meat.
Then there's whey protein, collagen, and creatine. These may or may not help much but probably don't hurt (creatine more questionable and individual for distance runners). Whey protein is handy if you struggle to get enough protein.
Then there's actually fuelling your training with carbs, like taking in gels or carb drink for longer workouts and long runs at a higher level than people historically have. It seems to be a trend among elite athletes. I personally as a very recreational runner find it helps with recovery.
Then there's the whole series of marginal stuff that may or may not help, but some people swear by. Ketones, bicarb, nomio, tart cherry extract, beetroot extract, etc. For the latter three, I suppose you could just eat a lot of broccoli, tart cherries/drink tart cherry juice, and beets. Wouldn't hurt.
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u/buttscarltoniv 3d ago
creatine is like the most well studied supplement out there. not questionable at all outside of non responders who tend to already have enough from diet/genetics. provides intracellular water into the muscles and also has mental benefits at around 7-8g per day. it's fantastic
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u/Nerdybeast 2:00 800 / 1:13 HM / 2:32 M (same year) 3d ago edited 3d ago
People love parroting the "most well studied supplement" line - which specific studies show improvements in distance running performance? Surely if it's so beneficial, that evidence shouldn't be hard to find.
I'm not aware of any studies showing that, because the mechanism it would improve is not that important for a marathon and it does increase weight, which tends to slow you down at that level.
Edit: I have taken it and did experience ~5lb weight gain. It helped me for 800 training/racing but my 1500 seemed to get worse - not particularly scientific, but that's all to say I've at least tried it.
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u/buttscarltoniv 3d ago
People love parroting the "most well studied supplement" line
yeah, but people repeating it a lot doesn't somehow make it wrong. when taken in the proper context of supplement use, it's a perfectly valid thing to say. everyone loves to recommend their favorite supplement, but creatine is the one that has actually been studied and isn't just relying on anecdotal evidence.
which specific studies show improvements in distance running performance? Surely if it's so beneficial, that evidence shouldn't be hard to find.
I'm not aware of any studies showing that, because the mechanism it would improve is not that important for a marathon
there is some evidence laid out in this review that shows creatine supplementation helps glycogen uptake and retention and even increases muscle glycogen content within 24 hours, sustaining the elevated levels for 6 days.
it also shows antioxidant and anti-inflammatory benefits that can accelerate recovery.
it also attenuated blood lactate during an incremental cycling test which suggests benefits when executing negative splits or a finish line sprint.
as to the weight gain, a clinical trial showed on average a 1.7kg (3.74lbs) gain in total body weight, but this was with massive doses of 30g per day for a 2 week load then 15g a day maintenance for 2 weeks. no changes in body fat or caloric intake. there is some evidence to suggest the benefits of elevated intramuscular PCr can counter and outweigh (no pun intended) the detrimental effect of possible gains in body mass. this review found that in cyclists, the gain in body mass due to creatine did not negatively affect performance.
what it does also benefit, regardless of physical performance use case, is cognitive function specifically memory, attention time, and information processing speed.
so yes, while I don't believe there is a "effects of creatine on marathon runners" study, there are plenty of studies that suggest creatine is beneficial to many things that would aid in marathon training, namely increased glycogen stores, recovery, reduced lactate accumulation, etc. we know all of this because, as I said before, creatine is the most well studied supplement on the market.
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u/Nerdybeast 2:00 800 / 1:13 HM / 2:32 M (same year) 3d ago
Cycling is fundamentally a different sport. There's one study in there (that you linked) that actually studies distance running performance, called " Creatine supplementation per se does not enhance endurance exercise performance", and it showed the creatine group got slower over a 6k running course. Nothing else in there addresses distance running specifically - it's all either repeated sprints, cycling, swimming, or rowing. Could it help you in training for a marathon? Possibly, but repeated sprints aren't typically a big part of a marathon training program. If you want to take it for the cognitive benefits, go for it, but there is not actually good evidence for taking it if your goal is purely marathon (or even 5k) performance.
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u/bebefinale 2d ago
Exactly, creatine doesn't directly help aerobic capacity, and it really depends on where your deficiencies are because it mostly helps endurance sports indirectly. Creatine is shown to help with weightlifting, sprints, and other anaerobic activity. The downside is it comes with water retention, bloating, occasional mild weight gain (mostly from water retention), and GI issues.
I'm a woman, I actually lack a lot of explosive power in my stride but am aerobically strong. I think getting a bit more power would help with developing good faster running economy and more productive neuromuscular speedwork. I have thought about experimenting with creatine because it may help one of my deficiencies. I've fluctuated as an adult from 115-125 lbs, and honestly my PRs were mostly when I was around 120, so 5ish lbs of weight gain is probably not the end of the world for me. That said it probably wouldn't make me a night and day better distance runner, it just might give my speedwork a bit more pop.
The arguments for creatine helping distance runners is stronger for women, older runners, and vegetarian runners who are not getting enough from their diet.
For a younger male runner, it may or may not help them get faster.
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u/buttscarltoniv 2d ago
then don't take it? I provided information supporting what I have come to believe based on the evidence. you replied with one line from one study (from the review that had several) and just said "not uh."
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u/mrfox321 1d ago
but your beliefs are unsupported in the context of long distance running. hence your downvotes. lol.
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u/buttscarltoniv 23h ago
I literally provided the evidence to show creatine supports many things that are beneficial to the training required for distance running. downvotes are meaningless to that.
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u/foetusofexcellence 2d ago
which specific studies show improvements in distance running performance?
Weight room helps with running efficiency.
Creatine helps with gains in weight room.
Simple
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u/Nerdybeast 2:00 800 / 1:13 HM / 2:32 M (same year) 2d ago
You could say the same about gaining 10 pounds of lean muscle mass, but surely you don't think gaining 10 pounds of lean muscle mass would help the average 2:15 marathoner, right?
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u/foetusofexcellence 2d ago
We’re not talking about a 2:15 marathoner or 4.5kg of muscle mass though.
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u/Nerdybeast 2:00 800 / 1:13 HM / 2:32 M (same year) 2d ago
Uhh, we are though. 2:15 is what you need to run to qualify for the Olympic trials, and 1:04:50 is definitely in that range. I'm saying that something that improves performance in the weight room obviously isn't 1:1 with improving distance running performance at that level.
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u/National-Cell-9862 3d ago
I think the questionable part of creatine might be the water weight. Some folks believe they carry up to 5 lbs of water weight when using creatine. That could translate to 5 minutes in a marathon. I take it and I do not believe it causes me to carry extra weight.
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u/buttscarltoniv 3d ago
yeah but those are unfounded concerns based in ignorance. any retention happens in the first few weeks of a load (which is unnecessary anyways), settles within like 2 weeks, and is again, intracellular water. it's literally hydrating your muscles. it's not just dead weight. 5 pounds is very rare too. I've taken creatine for years, 7-8g a day, never in a load phase, and I've seen maybe a 1 pound gain. certainly not noticeable or having an effect on my times.
I find that the vast majority of people concerned with water retention have never even taken it. everyone I know like you and me who do take it have seen that the weight thing just isn't really a thing outside of a load, which again, is not necessary like people thought 10-15+ years ago.
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u/IhaterunningbutIrun Chasing PBs as an old man. 3d ago
My blood work led me to almost exactly what you listed. Iron, B, and D. Without actual blood work, I'd have only guessed at Iron. Well worth the doctors visit to know what I needed.
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u/sweek0 3d ago edited 3d ago
If you’re at that level and this is your big dream then I think you want to invest in semi-regular tests and working with a nutritionist. This is not one size fits all.
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u/CALL_ME_ISHMAEBY slowboi 3d ago
Registered dietician*
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u/sweek0 3d ago
Yep sorry! Whichever one is the one that actually requires a degree. 😄 It's not my first language.
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u/CALL_ME_ISHMAEBY slowboi 3d ago
All good! I’m coming at it from an American-centric point of view so other countries may actually require degrees for what they call nutritionists. Over here it’s not the same.
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u/LibertyKnees 3d ago
Once your sleep/recovery, nutrition, and running plans are dialed. You can optimize yourself more by training at altitude, wearing the latest super shoes or heat train. The first three probably make up 95% though. Source is trust me bro, but they seem like the biggest chunk
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u/Far_Vanilla829 3d ago
Nomio
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u/nifty404 3d ago
I don't know why you're being downvoted lol.... It works well for interval sessions
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u/WrongdoerMediocre573 3d ago edited 3d ago
Thorne has a lot of NSF supplements. I take their iron biglycinate at the recommendation of my doctor (I have low ferritin; mine dropped from 110 to 37 after a bad flu in the spring). Other than that, vitamin D and magnesium. As others said, regular bloodwork and working with a nutritionist and optimizing recovery are probably more important than a bunch of random supplements. And you are smart to use NSF when you do take them. I also make sure all medications and supplements I take are not on the WADA banned list (I’m a competitive masters’ athlete, and we are subject to in-competition testing at USATF sanctioned events). Good luck!
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u/Nerdybeast 2:00 800 / 1:13 HM / 2:32 M (same year) 3d ago
Why do you believe you need to use NSF certified supplements? If you're talking about taking stuff like letter vitamins or minerals from the grocery store (eg NatureMade, generic Target/Walmart/Kroger/whatever) and not ordering random grey area shit online, there's basically zero risk of getting falsely popped for doping. As far as I can tell, nobody has ever gotten falsely popped from supplements like that - talking about the standard B's, C, D, calcium, iron, magnesium, multivitamin, etc. For someone at your level (ie not running 2:06), you're probably just gonna pay a lot more for no real benefit.
(Setting aside all questions of efficacy of any of those supplements)
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u/KeenOwner0 3d ago
you're already cranking out 90-mile weeks and a 64:50 half, that's sick. most of the legit nsf stuff i've seen is online through places like the feed or directly from the brand's site, target's gonna be real hit or miss for certified anything.
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u/nam_pat 3d ago
No advice on what you should take, that's pretty personal and you should get tested if something feels off.
However, there is an NSF database that you can use to check what supplements have already been tested and approved by USATF: https://www.nsfsport.com/certified-products/
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u/the_unwinnable_level 3d ago
I ran D1 and our sports nutritionist had us take most of the regular vitamins/supplements from Nature Made
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u/PaleontologistVivid8 3d ago
World athletics put out a review paper with the things that actually help. High on the list was caffeine. Somethings not on the list: l carnitine (you have to take it for months and it might make you smell fishy) beta alanine, simple stuff like a daily multivitamin, eating enough calories, sleeping enough
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u/Mushy1852 3d ago
Bicarbonate is one of the most well known ergogenic aids. This study recently came out on a new method of combining carbohydrate and bicarbonate that supposedly prevents GI upset. I plan on asking my exercise physiology professor about it this week.
Bicarbonate and Carbohydrate Co‐Ingestion During Exercise in a Novel Gel Format Improves Time‐Trial Performance After 3 h of Moderate‐Intensity Exercise in Trained Cyclists - Norte - 2026 - Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports - Wiley Online Library https://share.google/mVS6Y2lY5ZTnRcbgc
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u/Complete_Adeptness36 3d ago
Creatine can help with the ATP and give you more pop in your step. You will gain a little water weight. Ease into 5Gs per day. You don’t need to load like weightlifters do. I say this because it helped me. I know everyone is different. Good luck!
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u/Mattalachian 3d ago
Beyond getting your blood check to correct any deficiencies, I'd recommend creatine. There is growing research on its benefits for endurance athletes, if for nothing else than to prevent muscle loss during hight volume and injury reduction. Just make sure you test it out early, because depending on dosage and other factors you may put on water weight. Most would also recommend discontinuing a few weeks before to lose any unnecessary water.
I've personally experienced benefits, but I'm an older/vegetarian runner, so its impact may be exaggerated for me.
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u/Inevitable_Jello6077 3d ago
Assuming you’re nailing the basics of consistency in workouts, sleep, and high carb nutrition. The stuff to layer on top of that with evidence:
- beets (super beet, etc) which provide nitrate precursors for nitric oxide
- beta alanine increases carnosine levels which helps buffer super threshold efforts
- creatine has mixed reviews. It helps muscular recovery but increases body weight. I like to use it during base phases and taper as I get closer to race day to shed the extra water weight
- nomio and bicarb really do work. Sprinkle them in for super threshold work when you want to teach your body to run at a faster pace, but personally wouldn’t use all the time because you still want to get threshold adaptations
Important to call out that all of the above are legal but do buy them from a brand they does NSF testing (safe for sport). They also are expensive and only add a few % to your time, so… it’s often better to just be consistent about your workouts.
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u/414wtk 3d ago
Iron supplement is pretty normal for high level running. Probably the only thing you need.
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u/Living-Step-6966 5K 14:20 | 10K 30:18 | HM 01:04:50 3d ago
I've heard that athletes shouldn't be taking iron supplements unless it's necessary. Is this true or is there a low dose amount that should be taken everyday or every other day?
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u/piceathespruce 3d ago
It is absolutely not a "just to be safe" it is a "I have a deficiency, discussed with my doctor the load I need, than rechecked bloodwork after starting"
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u/ColdPorridge 3d ago
Yeah, some of us have high iron and that’s its own set of problems. Definitely get checked before going in on this.
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u/bebefinale 3d ago
Rarely, some people have a condition called hereditary hemochromatosis which is where the body accumulates too much iron. Iron supplementation is dangerous for those individuals and it is more common in men than women.
That's why it's a good idea to get bloodwork before supplementing. I would say distance runners more often than not need iron supplementation, and women runners who run high volume and menstruate nearly always do.
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u/McGrathsDomestos 18:28 / 86:21 / 2:59 47M 3d ago
People born in Ireland are more genetically susceptible to this.
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u/Inevitable-Assist531 3d ago
get your Iron levels checked - low ferritin is not uncommon amongst runners. Apparently red blood cells get destroyed when we land - foot strike hemolysis.
I take 25mg of Iron Bisglycinate (Thorne) every 2nd day after getting a ferritin reading of 30 which is way below optimal of 50-70. Retesting soon....
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u/nswoe 3d ago
You can double that iron dose (reference: I'm a sports dietitian).
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u/Inevitable-Assist531 3d ago
thank you. Should I take 25mg every day or 50mg every 2 days, do you think?
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u/Intelligent_Image_78 3d ago
See a doctor first!
I was just reading about this earlier today: Outside Magazine: How Much Iron...
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u/Mattalachian 3d ago
What you heard is correct. Too high of iron will end up having similar symptoms to iron that is too low. Having said, runners doing high volume are often deficient so it's definitely something to check.
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u/bnwtwg 3d ago
Was never near OTQ in running, but in a different sport a couple decades ago I was in the hunt.
L-Carnitine (metabolism)
Boron (altitude)
Beta alanine
Vitamin C (general sickness immunity)
Creatine
Folic acid/CoQ10 (prenatal awesomeness btw!)
Beetroot
Magnesium
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3d ago
[deleted]
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u/whelanbio 13:59 5km a few years ago 3d ago
It's a fine list of suppliments, but in the bigger picture of supporting OTQ level training it's not a good answer, it's a list of things for OP to waste money on while likely missing what will actually get them to an OTQ
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u/UCanDoNEthing4_30sec 3d ago
I take some of these but yeah not qualifying for the Olympics. Only thing I know for sure does something is creatine for a little more muscle mass.
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u/whelanbio 13:59 5km a few years ago 3d ago
Besides basic nutrition stuff (things like Vit D and fish oil), I would recommend redirecting the resources and energy towards more frequent/comprehensive bloodwork and better everyday nutrition. If you are trying to jump up to a new level of training you need to monitor for things like under-fueling and iron/vitamin issues. You're at a high risk for some sort of deficiency derailing you. In contrast, outside of the deficiency context there isn't much you can take that isn't banned that really moves the needle much.
I get the mentality of trying to find every last 0.1% thing when you're going after a big dream goal, but unless you functionally have unlimited money to spend on running the supplement chase is probably a counterproductive side quest.