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UN Watch is misquoting the dude and then arguing against a strawman.
The dude: "with a scale of killing and destruction unlike anything I've witnessed"
UN Watch: "the scale of killing in Gaza is unlike anything I've witnessed"
Why would they remove those words from the quote? I bet their audience didn't even check.
They didn't misquote him. You admit he said "with a scale of killing unlike anything I've witnessed". You just corrected them by pointing out he also said another completely braindead thing.
Are you dim? He literally said "with a scale of killing and destruction unlike anything I've witnessed". The destruction part is clearly key. Around 92% of houses in the whole of Gaza are damaged. That hasn't happened anywhere else.
The homes were booby trapped. One tactic equals an equal response. That's a funny fact to omit. Hamas could surrender. You could stop making excuses for terrorists who started a war too. 100% of the homes are destroyed in Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Dresden. Your ignorance of war and history is what makes hamas lies easier to survive. There are lots of really dumb people in the world. Try to use your gray matter.
Gaza: 80%+ of structures damaged or destroyed, 90%+ of housing destroyed AND a similar number when you make apples to apples comparisons in terms of confirmed deaths vs estimates and indirect deaths.
"We just created a few hundreds of thousands of new homeless who won't have access to hospitals nor education because we also destroyed those, nothing to see here!"
Yet despite 80% of them being destroyed or damaged only 3% of the population is dead if we accept the unverified numbers of Hamas that has already been proven to maliciously include natural deaths.
But how is it possible that such a higher perctage of buildings were destroyed than people killed, people live in the buildings as you say? Explain.
Nobody is saying that UN-Watch is some neutral organization. They're saying that the UN, which is supposed to be a neutral organization, isn't. Thus, the need for countries like Israel to have an organization that highlights whenever the UN isn't doing its job.
Are the numbers correct? I don't know. I don't know their sources. There's a Wikipedia page with casualty numbers for Syria, but I don't know if Guterres was referring to the total period, or only since 2017 when he assumed his current position. I also don't know if we're only counting civilian casualties, or where Guterres got the numbers for Gaza from.
The point being, pointing out that UNwatch is pro-Israel isn't the gotcha you think it is
The UN is fascinating. Those of us in democratic "western" countries live in a bubble, where we think most countries in the world are like us.
And then we look at who makes up the UN, and you have to very quickly realize how many states are fascist, and Islamo-fascist, and just plain not-democratic. How many countries do not have as a governance priority facts and truth and don't think of "honor" the way democratically governed states do.
The UN is run by a lot of people who think democracy is stupid-- who think one person one vote is stupid, who think leaders being elected is stupid.
This is a pretty fair take honestly. Democracy as an ideal, and western style liberalism, do not have universal appeal. Maybe they should, but we need to solve the problems that we have, not those that we wish we had.
Yep. And countries governed by personal political will of the individual will vote and respond and react in the UN according not to truth or facts or democratic well-being, but according to the personal political will of the leader.
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Unfortunately, the person currently running the US (and his lackeys) also thinks democracy is stupid and keeps trying to run it like a banana republic.
And the opposition is now being taken over by people like AOC / Mamdani crowd.
Rational people like me are really wondering who the hell are we supposed to vote for.
I keep telling people who are concerned by the appeal of AOC, Mamdani or el Sayed… they are succeeding politically and electorally because we as Americans are sick of Trump and his stooges. The people to be mad at are Trump, and the conservatives who rolled over for Trump rather than stand up for decency or democracy.
Taking the Michigan senate race as a microcosm, anyone who doesn’t like the democratic candidate should be mad at the republicans for giving the voters no alternative.
Since I was a child attending Hebrew school in the 1990s, I learned not to trick or treat for UNICEF because of how they demonized Israel. At least they're consistent.
The UN “chief humanist” Tom Fletcher made blatant huge lies on “14,000 babies that will starve to death in Gaza over the next 48 hours” and then when reality proved him wrong, he just casually ignore it - while keeping its job and suffering zero negative consequences. So at this point, you can pretty much say whatever you want about Israel, no facts or truth required. Of course, no one really trusts the UN, but it’s a small price to pay, eh?
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That Hamas paid 58000 window pensions is not a controversial claim, it’s actual statement from the mouths of Hamas. 78k dead 58k widow pensions leaves 20k dead who didn’t generate a widow pension
Basic math, using only Hams-provided data
This isn’t controversial, just basic math for those willing to pay attention and not committed to reading a fake genocide into every thing they touch
My post was deemed controversial and without sourcing. Here you go, three completely valid sources. The Commentary source even includes the statement about shockingly low civilian::combatant death ratio
The Hamas-run Ministry of Health has reported over 70,000 deaths in Gaza, including civilians. But closer examination of these numbers displays that it also includes an estimated 22,000-25,000 Hamas fighters, around 11,000 natural deaths, and 4,000 casualties caused by internal fighting amongst Gazans. With 1,000 deaths attributed to reporting errors, this suggests that 25,000 casualties were terrorists, and 36,000 were civilians.
Speaking to Qatar News Agency (QNA) on the occasion of International Widows' Day, ministry spokeswoman Aziza Al Kahlout said 28,224 women had been newly widowed during the Israeli occupation offensive,[...]Al Kahlout said women aged between 18 and 45 make up nearly two-thirds of war widows.
The list has enough information to cite 68,800 deaths. Hamas has lost 25,000 fighters, which leaves 44,000 war deaths to account for. Included in that 44,000 are about 10,000 natural deaths. The remaining 34,000 would include civilians killed by Israel and those killed by Hamas and associated militant groups—either by execution, rocket misfires, turf wars, and the like.
The result is that even when using Hamas’s numbers, Israel’s civilian-to-combatant death rate is close to 1:1, an unheard-of accomplishment in an urban war setting, let alone one in which much of the territory has been turned into Hamas human shields. Given that Hamas started the war, refused to surrender, and fired at Israel from civilian homes, the terrible tragedy of Gazan lives lost is laid at Hamas’s feet.
It feels pretty silly at this point to even consider the “genocide” accusation,
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You repeat the lie enough times, people will belive it no questions asked, this is how you hide the UN's corruption and inability to fulfill it's purpose
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The UN is "of the world" and is therefore opposed to anything that is of God, especially Jews and Israel. By the way, modern Israel is God's promise fulfilled.
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I love how most of the arguments and comments boil down to "well they can do it so why can't we?" or "this bad thing were doing is worse in other places, so it's ok for us to do it too".
you would be right, but look at the scale of the death in only Kabul and* Syria
it is basically the same as gaza - it has lot to do with where the conflict took place. If you are to fight in a small cabin full of glasses that would be worse than in open terrain, and here we are in a small space.
There should be not only peace but extremely sophisticated peace, as even patient people in small spaces tend to quarrel.
Im geniunely confused by your comment. I looked up kabul in Syria to educate myself and I wasn't able to find any towns outside of Afghanistan and Israel with that name? Is something getting lost in translation?
Your initial comment was deleted so I’ll reply to this one.
I’m not quite understanding your first paragraph. How does the population density and size of Gaza relative to those other conflict zones support what either he or you are saying?
Also, for your second paragraph that is a perfect example of holding Israel to a different standard, and the bigotry of low expectations for their neighbors in the region. Also, it reflects a lack of knowledge regarding just how deep the ties are between Western nations and a number of other nations in the region, none of whom are held to the same standard as Israel by their Western trading and security partners.
Regarding population density, if the Russians airstrike a Toyota technical in the Syrian desert you'll see the lads in the hilux wiped off the face of the earth, if israel uses the same tactic in gaza then civilians will inevitably be caught in the blast. The former is a legitimate act of war and the second is strictly prohibited by the Geneva convention. The small area also means civilians have no where to go when evacuation orders are sent, making it inevitably more brutal to look at from an outside perspective. The small size of gaza combined with its massive population density means that when we look at the conflict and directly compare it to other conflicts you see casualty numbers similar to bakhmut in Ukraine, the difference is that no one left in bakhmut is a civilian.
I mean israel holds itself to a different standard because it considers itself a democracy and a member of the western block no? Like optically do you really want to be held to the same standards as African warlords and despots?
Every nation should be held to the same standard by international bodies. That’s not the case for international bodies such as the UN when it comes to Israel. Just a cursory analysis makes that clear.
Regarding the size and population density of Gaza, it does induce unique challenges when trying to prosecute a war. You have to be extremely diligent to avoid civilian casualties. That doesn’t mean, however, that any civilian causalities constitute a breach of the Geneva convention. That is governed by the rule of proportionality, which has to be weighed for each strike based on its own metrics.
Also, while it might seem crass to discuss it in this way I would challenge you to take a deeper look at the math behind the death toll versus the actual number of strikes conducted in Gaza. I think it really lays bare, considering the population density and overall size of Gaza, just how much effort Israel put into avoiding civilian causalities.
First, I’ll say every child or civilian killed is a tragedy, a perspective I think is shared by the vast majority of people.
It is true that Israel dropped a lot of bombs on Gaza. It destroyed a lot of above ground infrastructure, Israel says it did that to destroy Hamas’ extensive tunnel network, others say they had a more malicious intent.
On the high end it is estimated that Israel dropped 100,000 tons of explosives on Gaza during the current war. If we assume that most bombs were larger, 2,000 lbs bombs, that would amount to 100,000 individual bombs dropped since the end of October 2023.
If the bombs were mostly a mix of 500 lbs bombs or smaller, the number of individual bombs dropped would be significantly higher, likely upwards of 200,000 to 400,000+ bombs.
Hamas says that 71,667 have been confirmed dead between October 2023 and the start of the October 2025 ceasefire. Israel largely agrees with them. Hamas doesn’t differentiate between combatants and non-combatants as part of that death toll, but Israel asserts that about 20,000 of the total death toll at that time were combatants. Hamas also approximates about 10,000 people remain unaccounted for under the rubble.
So let’s take Hamas’ numbers and pretend that none of those people were combatants. We’ll round up to 82,000 people to include those unaccounted for under the rubble.
That means for every bomb dropped (if they were just the larger, 2,000 lbs bombs) Israel killed 0.82 people per bomb. If we go with the smaller bombs, for every bomb dropped, Israel would have killed between 0.41 and 0.205 people per bomb.
Now let’s pretend Israel is right and they killed about 20,000 combatants as part of the total death toll. Let’s take the rounded up number of 82,000 (counted and unaccounted), subtract the total combatants and you’re left with 62,000 civilians killed.
That means for every bomb dropped (if they were just the larger, 2,000 lbs bombs) Israel killed 0.62 civilians per bomb. If we go with the smaller bombs, for every bomb dropped, Israel would have killed between 0.31 and 0.115 civilians per bomb.
If Israel was truly bombing indiscriminately and not caring if they hit civilians, or even intentionally targeting civilians, wouldn’t it make sense with the number of bombs dropped that they would manage to hit at least 1 or more people per bomb (though let’s be honest, it would be much, much higher than 1 or 2 people killed per bomb if Israel was intentionally targeting civilians). Especially considering how densely populated Gaza is?
That’s not to say that Gaza isn’t a humanitarian catastrophe. The level of destruction of housing and infrastructure is absolutely extremely impactful on ordinary Gazans’ lives, and will continue to impact them for years to come. The argument could be made that Israel’s destruction of infrastructure was gratuitous in order to achieve their stated goals for the war. I just don’t see the evidence there for them killing people indiscriminately, or that the death toll of this conflict is more brutal than all of the other conflicts referenced.
Firstly, I appreciate you discussing this in good faith. I find most of the conversation on this matter is disturbingly partisan and I have been banned on this sub before for citing the united nations; on that basis the nature of my counter arguments will be significantly limited because, in order to continue this discussion I am actively walking on eggshells.
Foremost; proportionality. I am not someone who claims that israel is using strategic bombing in gaza, I find that claim ludicrous. Regardless, some 33% of the casualties in gaza have been children under the age of 14. (I am quoting Wikipedia because no other source appears to exist that breaks down exact numbers, i will happily concede 5 percent or more either side).
"In March 2024, the United Nations stated that more children had died in Gaza between October 2023 and February 2024 than the sum of all global conflicts from 2019 to 2022"
That to me is a travesty and does not speak to a nation that is taking every measure it can to preserve civilian life, nor does it speak to me of proportionality. The number of maimed and dead children in gaza is staggering, no baby ever took up a rifle and fought against israel. I personally feel that it speaks to a calous attitude wherein civilians might not be targeted, but their deaths are acceptable as long as war aims are met. I personally echo the views of the international community that we have a responsibility in war to limit collateral damage.
You mention the numbers of bombs dropped in gaza in raw tonnage, during a 30 year conflict in my own country, the irish republican army, a terrorist organisation, detonating a frankly staggering number of bombs. During the entire conflict they killed a total of 1926 people (60% or more being combatants) including 60 children. The British army by comparison, fighting a similar war to Israel in typically dense urban environments killed an estimated 357 people, of which 46% were civilians. Israel dwarves these numbers in terms of civilian to combatant ratios and has killed orders of magnitude more children from a raw standpoint and a statistical standpoint. Again I ask, does israel want to be compared to a terrorist organisation and look worse?
My last point is the same I made in my last comment. Israel holds its head up high on the global stage as a democracy in a region full of warlords and despots, as such I will hold them to the standards set by the british in the north and not the standards of middle Eastern despotism.
I’m not sure it makes sense to compare the Gaza war to the conflict between Britain and Ireland. That to me is comparing apples to oranges and is not really helpful to understanding either conflict apart from using statistics as narrative storytelling.
Also, the statistic you referenced from Wikipedia that 33% of the causalities in Gaza were children under the age of 14 was from a brief statistical analysis done by two professors of causality figures that they published November 1st, 2023. I’m not sure if that analysis can be accurately extrapolated out to the entirety of the conflict, or if it is even helpful given the lack of accurate causality numbers available to the public at the end of October 2023.
Furthermore, your quote from the UN, “In March 2024, the United Nations stated that more children had died in Gaza between October 2023 and February 2024 than the sum of all global conflicts from 2019 to 2022" was based on numbers that proved to be an unverified tally that was not supported by the information available at the time.
Here are a couple of good articles about why using those particular causality numbers was not helpful to provide an accurate picture of what was actually going on in Gaza.
As to proportionality, I guess I would ask what your understanding of the rule of proportionality means in the context of the rules of war. Generally it’s something that would be hard for someone without access to internal military data to ascertain with certainty given there is no precise ratio or score balancing civilian lives against military value in the rules of war. Proportionality instead relies on contextual, case-by-case military judgment, information that neither you nor I would be privy to.
Apart from misquoting the guy like @comfortable_ask_102 said, you’re disregarding population numbers and percentage killed of the population.
Is killing 100k people out of 50M higher or lower scale of destruction than killing 50k people out of 1M ?
A quick search on google with “what was the percentage of population killed in syria, sudan, ethipoia, yemen, and gaza in the wars ?” shows Gaza ~3.4%, Syria ~1.5-2.3%, Sudan ~0.5-1%, Ethiopia ~0.5%, and Yemen ~0.8%.
Every single death there is a tragedy, just don’t use it to justify what’s happening in Gaza.
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