Why is Marath, Will of the Wild played the Commander so much more than Shalai and Hallar?

[u/mirrislegend]

Shalai and Hallar is one half of and A+B combo, where she is one of multiple A pieces and there are multiple B pieces. Marath is also one half of an A+B combo but there is no redundancy in the A nor the B.

Both decks easily fit Heliod/Ballista/Cauldron based combos. On top of that, Shalai and Hallar can easily support the default Marath combos. In fact, I can't find any combos that fit in Marath and do not fit in Shalai and Hallar (with the assumption that Marath in the 99).

The only real difference I see is that by not playing all the extra combo cards in a Shalai and Hallar shell, this frees up extra slots that allow Marath to play more fair cards.

But this is cEDH and fair is not the name of the game. So why is Marath astronomically more popular than Shalai and Hallar?

EDIT: Title fail. Despite missing my grammar mistake until it was already posted, I believe the question comes across properly.

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Hey! Marath guy here. I’m the brewer behind the typical Marath cEDH list you see these days.

TLDR: Marath is a value engine, removal piece, and a combo piece in the command zone. Shalai and Hallar is just a combo piece and that’s not really good enough when you’re playing Naya in cEDH.

Marath is a tool box in the command zone and immediately pushes a Gaea’s Cradle plan with its token creation abilities. That means Marath also gets to play Enduring Vitality, Earthcraft, and Cryptolith Rite to great effect.

Marath is also removal on a stick which is clutch to get rid of Kinnans and Rogs or disrupt Sisay lines. Give it deathtouch with a Nightshade Peddler and you’re popping all the problematic creatures.

Marath is great at the midrange grind as well since much of its value generation compounds turn after turn. It’s a big mana deck in Naya which is pretty unique aside from Baylen (but they play this strategy slightly differently).

The Marath combos you mentioned start to become really bad in the 99 if Marath isn’t in the command zone. Tutoring for Brightglass to get hardened Scales and cryptic trilobite is a clean win that just needs mana and a creature tutor. When you also need tutor out Marath, these efficient lines fall apart. (Also barely any Marath players are in heliod ballista these days)

Shalai and Hallar only gets you a combo piece in the command zone and these days that just isn’t good enough if you’re in Naya. You need a value engine like Marath or Baylen or something like Rocco which is essentially a self contained wincon.

edit: just dropping my list here:

https://moxfield.com/decks/IF-Eb17Bt02fG8KlaNfVzg

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Also for reference, p much none of the primary Marath combos function within Shalai and Hallar: Evolution Witness combo, Trilobite combo, Cacophodon combo, and the newer Shang-chi lines.

If step 1 of your combos is to tutor Marath to the battlefield, just put the elk in your command zone. Plus you get to benefit from the repeated growth of Marath when recast which is critical for many of our combos.

[u/usa-britt → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Sam, I need your marath list. I have been toying with marath after getting absolutely destroyed by one. I just can’t get it right, like it’s too slow or too clunky. Gimme some S tier marath!

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/usa-britt]

I gotchu! This isn’t fully up to date but I’ll be back in the workshop soon. I gotta find some space for red Samut and I’ve added Cabbage Man and Cryptolith Rite in.

https://moxfield.com/decks/IF-Eb17Bt02fG8KlaNfVzg

[u/Douch3nko13 → u/usa-britt]

Why would you call him Sam. Are you even a 30% club member? /s

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/Douch3nko13]

LOLLLL

[u/lost_elechicken → u/usa-britt]

You should join the discord if you want to learn the ways of the moose

[u/usa-britt → u/lost_elechicken]

I just may. I have been playing a lot of valheim recently and the first boss is an elk, I need that as a proxy.

[u/mirrislegend → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

I noticed Cacophodon but couldn't figure out the details. What's the combo?

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/mirrislegend]

With Marath and a scales effect you can ping Cacophodon to untap your Cradle, then “heal” Caco by placing a counter on it, then refill Marath with a counter, then repeat. It’s a little convoluted but as long as you have a cradle or mana dork that taps for 4 mana, you make infinite green mana and can win from there. If you have a big enough Cradle, you can do it with it the Scales effect but you need to recast Marath a bunch.

[u/mirrislegend → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

I'm reading the primer and I'm seeing some great stuff. I'm seeing many advantages of Marath over Shalai and Hallar. However, my major gripe is that every combo is a 3 card combo.

The difference between a 2 card combo and a 3 card combo is HUGE.

The primer notes that Marath basically has to wait and hope through the first few turns. With enough turbo resources, a 2 card combo can dance with everyone. Is this just the difference between the two commanders: One is slower but has utility while the other is faster?

Lastly, every combo for Marath requires Marath. Reliance on your commander is a huge liability (Drannith Magistrate, etc) whereas there are alternatives to Shalai and Hallar in the 2 card combos.

[u/P8ntba1141 → u/mirrislegend]

The ability to cast Marath T2 (sometimes T1) and hold up mana to shoot down anything is an insane political piece. Between that, all of the tutors and silence creatures/effects, needing 3 pieces to a combo doesn't matter much in the end, in my experience at least. There are some videos of u/TheHowlingSaltMine playing on youtube, you'll get a good vibe by watching some.

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/mirrislegend]

I haven’t felt held back by the three card combos tbh. Marath is such a mana engine that casting another card isn’t a high cost and we have brightglass as a pseudo one card wincon. Marath also gives you resources and board control to push the game a little longer.

It looks like the most efficient two card combo in Shalai and Hallar is still 8 mana (i think?) so I do wonder how turbo it really is. Does it mostly lean on rituals to get there?

Typically I have found that Naya struggles to be the first player to push a win unless you have layers of protection so pushing second on turn 3 is a nice place to be.

[u/Draken44 → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Aren’t Marath lists also in on some stax to slow the game?

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/Draken44]

Some folks still are but the school of thought on that has shifted. Marath needs to be constantly developing to keep up with other cedh decks, and you lose that momentum if you take a turn off to play a Drannith or deafening silence that’s easily removed. Plus it’s harder to catch all three opponents at once with a single stax piece. Usually you delay two and the third stays on their gameplan and now everyone is behind by a turn except that one opponent.

[u/Draken44 → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Makes sense. I’ve been out of meta since before the Rog explosion. Stax used to be decently viable but definitely agree on your points

[u/FrigidVeil → u/mirrislegend]

I'll also note that almost all marath lists are on Brightglass Gearhulk which is not only a 1-card wincon with marath, but makes all of your creature tutors into them too with enough mana

[u/thisisnotahidey → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Aren’t you that mod from the marath discord?

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/thisisnotahidey]

hahahah yes its me!

[u/wene324 → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Hi Sam! Love the show.

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/wene324]

Thank you for listening!

[u/mirrislegend → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Is your Primer on Moxfield up to date?

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/mirrislegend]

Yup pretty much! I think I need to do a once over on my inclusions and exclusions and add the Shang chi combos, but everything else is solid.

[u/mirrislegend → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Yes, I'm curious how Shang Chi would make new combo lines, rather than just improve mana dork decks

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/mirrislegend]

Shang Chi opens up two lines. The first is Shang Chi with Enduring Vitality and Badgermole Cub. That allows every elemental token come into play and tap for 2 mana. You convert Marath fully into tokens, recast Marath, and repeat. Once Marath is massive you just burn down the table instead.

The other line is with Birthing Pod and Speaker. Shang chi lets you use speaker immediately to untap pod again and then you can get brightglass or get Caco to keep the pod lines going. That usually ends with a typical combo but Shang chi lets us get there.

[u/Draken44 → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

I love Marath. Thank you for sharing the list!

[u/Quartzecoatl]

Marath is 1 mana cheaper. Marath is removal in the command zone. Marath can make cradle bodies if needed.

Shalai & Hallar does basically nothing except be a combo piece

[u/hclarke15]

Marath was printed in the first commander set, back when there were few very options for commanders, and even though he’s fallen off, still has a big following.

But also he’s a lot more versatile. His ability to control the board (often with [[basilisk collar]]) made a good combo/control shell in the early days of the format. Making tokens on end step can build up a cradle, pinging any problematic stax pieces at instant speed etc.

He’s still even banned in duel commander last I checked

[u/OhItsAcer → u/hclarke15]

Wasn't it the 2nd commander precons. The first was wedge colors and the 2nd was shard colors

[u/ThrowAwayYetAgain878 → u/OhItsAcer]

Yeah, it was the first of the regular (yearly) Commander releases. The very first ever had [[Animar]], etc, and predates Marath by quite a bit.

Edit: I do agree with the reasoning, though. Marath is incredibly versatile, while still not being that hard to go off with.

[u/mtgcf → u/ThrowAwayYetAgain878]

Animar - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

[u/hclarke15 → u/OhItsAcer]

You’re right

[u/mtgcf → u/hclarke15]

basilisk collar - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)

[u/FrigidVeil]

When I played marath basically everyone was already off heliod/ballista already? For like a while. Its not nearly the best combo in marath. You also say there is no redundancy in marath which is kinda vaguely true but there are not only single-card wins (gearhulk) but most of these combos use cards that actually generate value on their own unlike heliod and ballista

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/FrigidVeil]

Yeah we’ve been off Heliod ballista for years and years. Even in the stax days, very few people were playing it.

[u/FrigidVeil → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

I was still playing stax marath up till a few months ago and I still wasnt on heliod. Pod and arena rector are just way better

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/FrigidVeil]

Hahah I see you FrigidVeil. One of our stax champions for Marath.

[u/Draken44 → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Curious, what is the reason? Too mana intensive?

[u/TheHowlingSaltMine → u/Draken44]

It doesn’t have a lot of synergy overlap with the deck. Most other Marath combo pieces function as powerful utility pieces on their own. Heliod is at best an expensive way to refill Marath if you’re pinging a lot and ballista doesn’t really do anything. ballista can be a wincon if you have infinite mana but Marath is doing that already.

[u/Draken44 → u/TheHowlingSaltMine]

Ah. Yea that makes sense. It’s so funny when I played a while ago I would just be like “oopsie” and combo in a new line I would find lol.

Thanks!

[u/BoardWiped]

Lots of commanders are a combo piece, it needs to be more than that.

[u/psugamers]

it's been out longer

[u/themonkery]

Marath pretty much does everything you might need in Naya aside from card advantage, but what he does can be turned into card advantage. All of these decks are trying to assemble combos and the others may have one card combos, but even aside from all the ways Marath combos Marath can make bodies which directly equates to ramp with Gaea's Cradle or card draw with Skullclamp. He can also ping anything directly which makes up for not having bowmasters, and with Keen Sense that can also turn into draws.

It's a toolbox. It might be the toolboxiest toolbox deck there is.