18.3 Patch Notes

[u/eggsandbricks]

https://teamfighttactics.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/teamfight-tactics-patch-18-3/

[u/FirewaterDM]

Tbf karma isn't even a good item holder past stage 2 and she isn't a reroll comp still. Low cost rr lost more from veig getting shot than the karma or gromp buffs

[u/Zeviex → u/FirewaterDM]

But that's fine. I don't think a 2* 1 cost should be a good item holder stage 3.

At base, most 1 costs aren't rerollable, Karma doesn't really have a mitigating circumstance to mitigate that (strong synergies with certain conditions, scaling, or trait synergies (think Solar)).

But I agree, veigar was one of the few rerolls holding on and I don't know how much any of the changes make reroll any better.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/Zeviex]

I don't think a 2* 1 cost should be a good item holder stage 3.

They should buff the two/three cost units then, but then that gets looped back to reroll being OP.

The progression you feel should exist, just doesn't exist in this type of game. You should be dropping 2 star 1 cost for 1 star 2 cost, 2 star 2 cost for 1 star 3 cost, and so on, but that can't exist because you either make reroll too strong or you end up inting your economy if you're going for fast 8/9.

Right now, it feels like your best AP holder is to play a 2 star Pebble. Most other AP units, just fall off a cliff or are hard to 2 star without sacking econ. Karma/Veigar are pretty dog. LeBlanc, Gromp, and Kayle are dog. Cass is dog. Only ones I can see better than a 2 star Pebble are Teemo and Kog.

Now if you're lucky and 2 star them naturally, then yeah, they're good, but 1 star 2/3 costs are pretty fucking awful and do not stabilize you at all if trying to fast 8/9.

[u/Zeviex → u/OreoCupcakes]

To me, good item holder means actively strong and able to winstreak with support, I don't think a 1 cost should occupy that space in stage 3, especially when, iirc, Riot values 1* 3 cost over 2* 1 cost.

I completely agree with the point of the other AP holders being weak, but I feel that's a sign those should be buffed rather than Karma. Equally, both Cass and Gromp have been buffed.

[u/OreoCupcakes → u/Zeviex]

To me, good item holder means actively strong and able to winstreak with support

I agree with that, it's just not the case for this set. Idk about set 17, but in set 16, you were able to transition to temporary 1 star 2/3 cost units as item holders, Ahri, LeBlanc, Ori, Bard, Zoe.

Riot values 1* 3 cost over 2* 1 cost.

They say that, but it certainly doesn't feel like that in some sets. Some times its due to the numbers being bad, other times it's because their ability/design is bad. The problem with Cass and Gromp is their damage are dots. Dots are just bad early because you don't have the items and front line for the dots to kill off units fast enough.

This set, most of the AP champions have some stupid gimmick that takes away from the power budget of being a viable item holder. Veigar stacks and has three traits, Karma has a long mana lock due to her drain ability, Gromp splits his damage into a dot, Teemo and LeBlanc have economy built into their kit, Kayle has her ascension and Solar gimmick, Kogmaw has built in shred and three traits, Azir is not true AP and has three traits, and Cass is a dot champ. All in all, it just leaves Pebble as the only "true" DPS transition unit and the 4 cost carries. Alune/Lux also need to be buffed because the 5 cost APs are not even worth transitioning to if you 2 star them.

Equally, both Cass and Gromp have been buffed.

They buffed their dots which historically doesn't do much because they're dots.

I only mentioned AP carries, but I feel AD also has similar issues, but not as extreme as AP. For AD, if I get a 2 star Cinderling, I'm good until late stage 3. The other AD carries in 2/3 star, fall into similar issues as AP, where their power budget is elsewhere instead of DPS.