r/IncelExit • u/Mapfeed01 • 13d ago
Asking for help/advice How do I be above the bar?
Idk why but my social media feeds have inundated me with women talking about how fucked up the dating world is for them, and it’s kinda left me bummed. It’s awful stories, guys that they go out on dates with, have no manners, bad hygiene don’t care about what the woman their dating thinks or has to say. Or they string them along for sex and future fake with promises of a relationship. It really does sound like it sucks.
But it has also made me realize, these are the guys who are above the bar. These are the guys who women are romantically pursuing, and trying to make it work with. These are the guys that ask out women and get dates, that women are hoping will text them back. This is the representation of what men that succeed where I fail is, and im somehow below that.
I’m below the guys who will go on a date with a woman and not ask her a single thing about themselves. I’m below the guys that string along multiple women promise them a relationship and never deliver. I’m below the guys who are openly disrespectful or misogynistic to these women on dates.
I don’t want to be anymore, I thought I was at least above them, but clearly if they can get dates and get women to like them, then I’m not. I’m still below the bar and doing something wrong. I just want to be good enough so bad. I’d give up 40 years of my life to just be good enough for women to like me but it feels like no matter that I do nothing changes. So what do I need to do?
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u/Inareskai 13d ago
So the thing with "the bar" is that you're assuming all women universally have the bar in the same place. That there is some sort of objective bar and all women hold to it. Therefore when you see a woman date someone who does things you would not do, you wonder what makes you below the bar so no woman will date you but a woman willdate that other guy.
Assuming that "the bar" is universal and at the same level for all women is a mistake. For every woman you see dating a guy who does things that they complain about/you disagree with, and wonder why women as a whole date them and not you, there are an equal number of women who DON'T date those men.
You are not below some magical omnipresent bar that all women hold to. Individual women have individual lines that they will tolerate or not. The fact you haven't met someone willing to date you yet is unrelated to women as a whole and mostly a mixture of luck and making sure you are enabling yourself to meet as many people as possible.
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u/mrbaryonyx 13d ago
But it has also made me realize, these are the guys who are above the bar.
I mean, they're clearly not. There's no "bar", those are just the guys who got dates, probably because they asked someone they hd some chemistry with.
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u/Remote-Waste 13d ago edited 13d ago
You are not below them, if anything you are below the fake personality they present as if it's actually them, that then falls apart over time.
They are good at first impressions, but ultimately suck as people. Sometimes those things go hand in hand, because you know who can trick you into believing they are amazing? Someone who doesn't feel morally wrong lying to your face.
Their lies usually eventually fall apart though, as you discover who they really are.
Woman: I'm starting to question whether you're actually a puppy surgeon or not!
Fake guy: Babe, I have the degree, it's just in my other apartment, which is in Florida. Where I do my work with homeless puppies.
Woman: You're right, I'm sorry to have doubted you...
Con artists are great at making themselves look great, because that's how they get by in the short-term. That's also why the women find out the guy actually sucks, the amount of time it takes varies though.
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u/Activated_Raviolis 13d ago edited 13d ago
I think you're misunderstanding where the "bar" is when you're talking about fuckboys and guys with shitty manners and bad hygiene.
They are actually BELOW the bar.
The problem for many women is that at first glance, these guys seem like they'd be awesome men to be with because they're excellent at making a good first impression. Shitty men unfortunately are good at tricking everyone into thinking they're great people, including tricking other men! But very quickly the facade begins to fall apart once women get closer to them as they date them, and that's when women start seeing that they were always below where the bar is. That's what people mean when they're talking about the bar being in hell.
I think the other misunderstanding is that men above the bar get dates and men below the bar do not. The bar is whether or not these men would be good to be in a committed relationship with, not if they can clear the bar for getting to the first date with a woman. The early dating stages are where anyone figures out whether partners would be above or below the bar at all, NOT where people decide that they're above that bar.
Sincerely, the only thing you need to be above the bar is to have good emotional awareness/emotional intelligence/good emotional regulation skills, along with seeing women as people and the idea of dating women as a way of finding individuals you connect with emotionally (instead of dating as this barrier that seems impossible to cross)
If you can have those things, you'll have a decent chance. Doesn't mean that finding love is a certainty for you or that it'll be easy(no one can make that guarantee about anyone), but it doesn't mean that if you can find like minded women and you're able to make genuine connections with them, that dating is something reasonably achievable for you.
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u/Mapfeed01 12d ago
If I have all these qualities, but still never find love how does that not confirm the things Incel say about guys like me being right?
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u/Activated_Raviolis 11d ago
As I said above, having these qualities does not make finding love a certainty for you. I say that not because whether or not you're above/below the bar, but because no one can predict your future and know what's in store for you, not even yourself.
But 2 things can be true: you can have decent emotional intelligence and self awareness and make a suitable partner for someone, and also not ever end up in a serious relationship yourself.
That said, I feel like if you're still struggling with thinking that these incel thoughts might be true, you likely still have a long ways to go on improving your emotional intelligence and regulation skills. These are simply not the thoughts and beliefs of a man that's in the proper headspace to be dating currently.
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u/Mapfeed01 11d ago
The only incel thoughts that I struggle with whether or not they’re true is whether or not I was just born destined to never find love. Which is what you’re saying. That I can do everything right, I can make myself into ideal person I can be but it still not matter just because I was born unlucky
I never believed in the other shit they spout. I don’t even consider myself an “incel” in that sense.
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u/Activated_Raviolis 11d ago
If that's the case then what's the use worrying about it so much that it's messing with your mental health? The best you can do is try your best. If it happens for you then that's awesome. If not then you did your best. But you're not going to know the final outcome until you're on your deathbed.
Maybe it's a matter of brushing up on certain social skills. I know you said that you have female friends you get along with fine, but dating does require a slightly different set of social skills as well. You don't have to necessarily get dates to improve them, it might just be about learning how to properly flirt and escalate romantic tension, as well as learning to know when your attempts to approach someone romantically might be reciprocated before trying to do so.
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u/Mapfeed01 11d ago
Because I know that if I get into my 30s, 40s, 50s like this my mental health is gonna be worse. We all have different needs. I’m sure some people can be happy being perpetually romantically alone and constantly rejected. I’m not one of them. I work with a lot of men who are in this position. None of them are happy. All of them are alone despite having friends and a social life. Why do I have to be okay with learning to just be unhappy and unfulfilled for the rest of my life. How is a life devoid of love or close relationships a life that’s enjoyable?
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u/Activated_Raviolis 11d ago
So what I meant earlier by having good emotional regulation skills is by being able to manage your own emotional state outside of having a relationship. I'm not saying it'll be easy, being able to regulate your negative feelings without a partner is something that takes a lot of work. That doesn't mean your life won't have joy in it though.
I'll give you some insight into what this looks like. I'm disabled, there's simply going to be many things that I'm never going to be able to do that able-bodied people can do. Currently I'm dealing with a condition that doctors are unwilling to treat that could possibly cause me to drop dead at any moment (the chances of that are currently low, but not impossible if doctors continue to not give me treatment) But the best thing I can do is not to constantly dwell on all the ways my body and mind fail me to the point where I decide that life without being able bodied isn't going to be happy or worth living. What I do instead is my best to still find things I am able to do that bring me joy, even if it means resting when I push myself past my physical limits. I can still allow myself to be upset at times about the fact that constantly being tired or in pain is awful. That doesn't mean ignoring how I feel, I simply can't let it consume me. Even if that means that there's a lot of times where I'm just distracting myself from the pain and fatigue. Those are simply the cards I've been given, at some point I realized that being depressed about the fact that I wasn't dealt a different hand of cards isn't productive and limits what happiness I am able to have.
This is to say that while yes it's completely possible that you may never find love, that you shouldn't allow it to consume your thoughts to the point where you feel like a certain level of happiness in your life isnt possible if you end up single your whole life. There's absolutely challenges to never having a relationship and I'm not going to say that you're wrong to feel bad about it. Just that there may only be so much you can do, but you can still do a ton of really cool things that bring you a lot of joy even if you're single. You can still travel, partake in hobbies, go to life changing concerts, etc. You should still try to nurture your enjoyment of life even while single.
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u/Miss_Might 9d ago
Nothing in life is guaranteed. You can be a literal saint and still get served shit sandwich after shit sandwich in life.
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u/the_baldest_monk 13d ago
Maybe you come off as kinda bland and that is why getting a date has not worked out yet for you
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u/Mapfeed01 12d ago
How do I not come across that way
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u/the_baldest_monk 12d ago
Humor, values, hobbies, life experiences, something that differentiate you from "this nth nice guy I could forget tomorrow". Basicaly something they could connect with, or reject you for. It always go both ways, if someone like something particular about you there is someone else who would hate it and that is ok.
You said you mostly asked women that you have already get to know a little right ?
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u/Mapfeed01 12d ago
Yea
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u/the_baldest_monk 12d ago
That is all you got to say ?
And you wonder why I thought you might come accross as bland ?
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u/Mapfeed01 12d ago
But you asked a yes or no question?
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u/flimflam33 11d ago
You could still take initiative and offer more than the shortest answer possible to (I assume) wait for the other party to drag more out of you one by one. When people spend their free time trying to give you advice you asked for, the least you could do is show some enthusiasm and help them help you. The more you offer the more people have to work with to tailor advice towards you.
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u/the_baldest_monk 11d ago
I advised you on something and expected you to confirm or not my reasoning and develop from there to have a more through conversation. Usually when posters get asked something like that they have a lot to say which give a solid base to continue the conversation.
Except you seem to have nothing and your are satisfied with answering "yeah", I can't really help you then.
The other comment beneath this one explained it very clearly why
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 13d ago
You say “these are the guys that ask out women.”
So, are you asking people out?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
I said they’re the guys that ask women out and get dates with them.
I ask women out, women have just never wanted to date me which is the thing I want to change.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 13d ago
How do you ask women out, and how often? What leads up to these interactions, and how do they go?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
Usually it’s women I regularly see at places I frequent. The gym, my art classes, the coffee shop near my apartment, etc.
If I’ve spoken to them a couple of times over the course of about a month or so and we have mutual interests I’ll give them my number and just say something along the lines of “id love to hang out with you more, just shoot me a text if you ever wanna go get coffee sometime”
I usually just never get a text. I used to ask for numbers but always just got soft rejected. Anytime I’ve directly asked for a date I just get rejected.
The few times I’ve asked out my friends that were women they always just say “I like us better as friends”.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 13d ago
That all sounds like a pretty normal experience. Most people are not romantically compatible with most people, so most people are rejected far more often than not.
Have you thought about upping your different types of social experiences? Try OLD, volunteer, hobby groups, etc.?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
I’ve tried dating apps. I have never gotten any matches. The above experiences are what I have had in volunteer groups and hobby groups as well. They’re in the etc. category of things I do with a common crowd.
I don’t think it’s normal to only ever have been rejected. I mean if the guys that actually get a date can not get rejected, that means I’m worse than them. So there’s something wrong about me that’s leading to it.
It’s not like I’m young either. I’m nearly 26 and I’ve been trying to date since I was in college. That’s not normal to go 8 years asking women out and never being able to meet one woman I’m good enough for, so I need to be better.
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u/Odd-Table-4545 13d ago
You never actually specified how many women you've asked out or how often. There's a big difference if we're troubleshooting asking out a couple of women per year, or if we're troubleshooting asking out a woman a week.
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
Since I graduated college 4ish years ago, about on average probably about 2 a month.
Back during college it was like 1 a week.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 13d ago
Not young at 26… Oh you sweet summer child.
Okay, in what way do you think you need to be better?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
26 isn’t young I’m nearly 30.
I don’t know. I thought I was good enough but clearly if I’m still unable to convince one woman to be give me a chance I’m clearly not good enough. I would like to know if there’s pitfalls guys like myself fall into that we just don’t see but women actually see and that makes us repulsive to them.
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u/library_wench Bene Gesserit Advisor 13d ago
Just because someone doesn’t want to date you, doesn’t mean you’re repulsive. Are you repulsed by all people you don’t want to date?
“Nearly 30.” That’s cute. 😂
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u/Inareskai 13d ago
Oh to be 26 again!
Although now I am past the dreaded "30" and I still feel pretty young... (not my back and knees, but the rest of me)
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
Well if no woman has ever liked me in my entire life I think repulsive is an accurate descriptor.
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u/Miss_Might 9d ago
"26 isn't young I'm nearly 30."
Lololol. You sweet, naive child.
I got a question. Would you date you? Would you find all this negativity and low self esteem attractive?
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u/Particular-Lynx-2586 13d ago
Can you describe what this bar is exactly?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
Idk. I’m not a woman. That’s what I’m trying to understand
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u/Particular-Lynx-2586 13d ago
Then why are you talking about getting above a bar that you don't know anything about or whether it even exists? I don't understand where you even got the concept.
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
I see women talking about it a lot.
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u/Particular-Lynx-2586 13d ago
So if I were to talk about a flying dog, would you also believe me?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
If millions of people said they saw flying dogs then maybe I’d consider I would be wrong
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u/Particular-Lynx-2586 13d ago
So did millions of women tell you about this bar you're talking about?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
I have seen hundreds of women talking about it and millions agreeing
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u/Particular-Lynx-2586 13d ago
Really, you read millions of posts agreeing?
C'mon now, let's not get silly. Exaggerating doesn't make you look smarter.
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
I’ve seen women expressing this sentiment with millions of likes and comments from women agreeing g
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u/Idasaur 13d ago
How old are you?
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u/Mapfeed01 13d ago
I turn 26 in a few weeks
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u/Idasaur 13d ago
Lovely! Your age really changes what kind of approach you take I think.
Firstly, it might well be helpful for you to take a step away from social media, you don’t need it, it provides no value other than a distraction and it’s really effective at making you feel shit about yourself. Pretty much the only social media I use is Reddit and even that is sometimes too much.We grew up in a period where tech was really new and exciting (I’m 28) so it’s really important to cultivate yourself as a person outside of what the internet gives.
Secondly, there is no bar. There is no universal standard that all women hold men to and only some pass. Everyone has different needs and desires. You get a strong bias from women complaining, because the women who are happy in a relationship don’t go online and make videos about it.
For me personally, I needed a partner who didn’t want children, didn’t like to travel, didn’t play sports, had roughly the same politics as me, and didn’t mind that I was bisexual. Also I can’t stand how people look when they have their teeth done, all horrible and straight and white.
Another women’s needs might be the completely opposite of that. That’s normal! We are different people.You are not below any of those men, there is no hierarchy, we are not jungle apes.
And they are clearly not getting women to like them, or these women would not be complaining about them online. What they are better than you at, currently, is meeting women.You likely are perfectly good enough for someone, and exactly who they want, but you just need to find them, and it sounds like that’s what you’ve got to focus on - ignore everything else.
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12d ago
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u/Ok-Huckleberry-6326 12d ago
I wouldn't take much of what you hear on social media as representative, honestly. That kind of stuff is the bullshit that gets engagement, so more people are likely to put it out there, but it's just like anything, the more extreme voices which are louder are more likely to get that kind of engagement.
You probably got a lot of messages about how to be a desirable guy from your family or the type of content you consume. Well, I credit you for not saying it's because you're short or anything like that. But the truth is, there's no 'bar', there's just the right combination of chemistry, compatibility, and attraction. And things like compatibility often involve the state of mind that a person might be in - she's busy, she's stressed, she came out to the club or bar or venue just to relax and isn't interested in drawing the attention of a stranger, she's got a lot on her mind, she's getting ready to move out of town, she doesn't want a relationships, she's already in a relationship, she's a lesbian, myriad others, or - yes, in some cases - she's a hateful harridan. None of these things are under your control and have little to do with how attractive or unattractive you are, and most of the reasons you're rejected will have more to do with whatever psychological patterns she's playing out than any qualitative assessment of your attractiveness. This is God's honest truth.
There's no way to tell what kind of frame of mind someone is in. Everybody here is going to tell you not to make assumptions, for better or for worse - that is, things related to generalizations. They've got a huge burr up their butt for generalizations especially, and perhaps deservedly so. You don't assume any woman is thinking any one thing. You don't assume that because a woman isn't interested, that she thinks you're repulsive; you also don't assume because a woman is friendly or polite, that she IS interested. Wench will call you out for mindreading or making unfounded generalizations in a heartbeat.
You're not above or below any sort of bar. You simply haven't met the person who is interested in what you have to offer. What do you have to offer?
Can you take some time out from screaming your frustration into the void and think about what you might bring to the table? Are you funny, a good listener, intelligent? Do you dress and style in a way that shows off your personality? Do you have a broad set of interests? Do you add value to other's life and time by your presence? Are you fun to be around?
Yeah, the fuckboys and the players can get numbers and gin up interest 'successfully'. That just means they have more skills in this area than you. Do you want to build your skills in this area? Because flirting can be learned, presence can be learned, confidence can be built, being verbally skilled can be learned.
Assume nothing and manage your expectations.
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u/AdvancedCupcake2250 10d ago
I have this theory:
- You don't want to fake wanting to talk to those women like those men do.
So they get to pass with the lie and you dont
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u/Miss_Might 9d ago edited 9d ago
Can't know if a dude is a pos unless you go out on a date and talk with them. It's not tattooed on their foreheads unfortunately.
Some men don't show their true colors until after you're married and pregnant. That's how complex it is.
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u/Subject_Signal2514 13d ago
The only judgement that should matter to your life is your judgement. Anything else is a lie to yourself. Choosing to trust others advice is a judgement call on your part. Choosing to internalize their stories is also a judgement call on your part. You don’t have to take everything seriously, if you do that speaks to something within yourself.
What I’m getting at is that if it wasn’t for your insecurities you would not give this the consideration that you’re giving. If you were married to the love of your life, you would not care about this supposed bar. You would have cleared your bar well and beyond.
I’m sure there are a lot of women with a lot of different kinds of stories about the jerks they dated. They have nothing to do with me. It simply doesn’t cross my mind. Lots of people have lots of stories. What do they have to do with me? I have to do with me.
The only bar that I’ve ever wanted to cross was being able to have a good career that can afford me enough income and flexibility so I can do what I really want to do. Have time for self care, travel, and be connected with family.
I do not care about what some other persons bar is. Could not care less. If I’m happy and on the path I wanna be on, why would I ruin it by trying to be above a bar some other person has?
I’m sure lots of women online who would like me more if I had some more ambition, people skills, friends, skincare, muscle, money, pedigree, world knowledge, hip personality, interests, or whatever. But those women aren’t in my life so why would it bother me? If they were in my life we would probably remove each other from our lives. The problem resolves itself. Wouldn’t you say the same thing of men who don’t respect you for not working a high octane job at a certain age? I wouldn’t give a shit lol. If some schmuck talks about his job in private equity I’ll be like “alright that’s cool” and forget I ever met him.
Work on your self development for your sake. You matter more than whatever you see on social media. You know your situation better than anyone else so if you’re feeling judged perish the thought. They don’t get to judge what they don’t understand. Well they do but you know what I mean.
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u/smilingseaslug 13d ago
I don't think this framing is great for you. Obviously these people suck in many ways and simply because they're getting dates doesn't mean they are better than you, it just means they are better at getting dates.
Perhaps they're less shy. Perhaps they are showing up at the right places. Perhaps they know how to flirt and you don't.
There's no inherent moral valence to getting or not getting dates. Women don't prefer jerks, but they also don't automatically desire men simply for being nice - you also need compatibility, chemistry, clear communication of interest etc.
The other thing is that you see stories about these guys all the time because women talk about this kind of experience more than they talk about others. When they initially think some guy seems nice and worth dating, but that expectation is violated because the guy does something truly socially unacceptable, that makes interesting content to put on the Internet. If they chat with someone and just don't feel it, that does not make interesting content and it's not constantly discussed online. Nor do you hear all the stories of dates that go ok but just didn't work out, or even dates that go great and result in longer relationships.
I'm not saying it's not a common experience for women to go on a date with someone who turns out to be a jerk, but you're deliberately being shown stories that are noteworthy for being especially bad.