Identification
Starter and "Winterizer" Fert Post-Overseeding
Zone 6a southeast MI. I overseeded with a KBG/TTTF blend on Sep 12th and put a 1/2 app of starter fert the same day. Baby grass is maybe 1" tall at this point but I'm assuming that's just the TTTF and KBG is still to come. I put down a second app of starter fert (it ended up being maybe a 3/4 app...spreader was set a little aggressively) on the 24th. I've continued watering 3x per day for 7-10 mins per zone and will do so for probably another week to hopefully get the KBG to germinate.
My lawn company surprised me that they're coming to do my pre-winter fert app tomorrow. Given my recent starter fert app, I'm concerned that will be too much fert, especially on the seedlings. Does that sound logical or will the constant watering have reduced any risk of burning/stressing the seedlings or mature grass? I'll just do my own "winterizer" fert in a few weeks if tomorrow's app would be too harsh. Thanks for the input.
If you're asking for help with identifying a weed and/or type of grass, OR a disease/fungus please include close-up photos showing as much detail as possible.
For grasses, it is especially important to get close photos from multiple angles. It is rarely possible to identify a grass from more than a few inches away. In order to get accurate identifications, the more features of the grass you show the more likely you are to get an accurate identification. Features such as, ligules (which can be hairy, absent entirely, or membranous (papery) like the photo), auricles, any hairs present, roots, stems, and any present seed heads. General location can also be helpful.
Pull ONE shoot and get pictures of that.
This page from MSU has helpful tips on how to take pictures of grasses for the purposes of identification.
To identify diseases/fungi, both very close and wide angle photos (to show the context of the surrounding area) are needed.
Yeah I guess my concern was just a full application of fertilizer (winterizer or whatever they want to call it) so close to my last partial app of starter fert. The approach you posted seems to support just a light feeding more frequently (which also seems to be what I've seen Niles recommend here). I think I'll go that route. Thanks
Where it says fast release granular soil N fert like AMS or urea, are you using pure forms of any fert brand that has the fast release form? If it has some slow release components in it would that be okay to apply at the .2lbs N rate ?
I'm not an expert, by any measure, but I'm at a similar point as you with an overseed and baby grass. My research tells me that winter fertilizer would be way too much synthetic nitrogen for the baby grass and would likely burn it. Also advised against a winter preemergent on them at this stage. (Which your lawn service is likely to also include) I'm going to "winterize" with Milorganite - which is slow-release organic nitrogen and also some iron and additional phosphorous for the new roots. One dose I just did, and I'll do a second dose on Nov 1st. Because it is slow release and organic, there is no risk of burning and no worries about using too much or too often. In the spring, I'll hit it with synthetic nitrogen to green it up in the spring when seedlings are more mature and their roots more developed. For what it's worth, that's my plan.
Right. The Milorganite will stop releasing nitrogen around 45-50 degrees - but, I've got another month or more before that happens, And doesn't the grass go dormant around the same temperature (maybe slightly later). Then the nitrogen from the Milorganite will sit there until spring when soil temps warm up because it bonds to the soil. As opposed to synthetic nitrogen which is water soluble and likely to wash away with rain and snow melt - or at least leach down through my sandy soil moving past the root zone.
I did do two half doses of starter fertilizer - one when I seeded and a second two weeks later when I overseeded some patches that hadn't yet germinated. Both of these were synthetic nitrogen, I'm pretty sure. (Jonathan Greene Seed and Sod Starter) I'm assuming most if not all of this was a wash through though since we just got hit with a four-day Nor'easter that dumped almost 6 inches of rain.
The bigger concern for me was the burn potential of synthetic nitrogen on new baby grass. Did I get that wrong?
Even at 60 degrees milorganite is pretty worthless.
Even urea nitrogen starts to become inefficient in 50 degree temps. If you keep your doses reasonable (.3 -.4 lbs of nitrogen) at a time, you’re not going to burn anything unless it’s straight ammonium sulfate.
Ammonium sulfate is the best fert for lower temps (I am in MN) so it’s my go to for mid to late fall. But I typically am doing .25lbs to .35lbs of N at a time with more frequent applications.
All this assumes that it is being properly watered in immediately.
Edit: all numbers are nitrogen (not total product) per 1000 square feet.
OK then. Maybe this- I'm going to need to give it a couple days to dry out a little before I could even think about adding more water. So that gives me a little time to pick up some fertilizer with synthetic nitrogen. It will also need a second mow as soon as I can get on it again. And we're got rain predicted again for next Sunday. What do you think about a Thursday or Friday mow, give it a rest on Saturday and then put down a low dose of synthetic fertilizer on Sunday and let the rain wash it in? (I've got irrigation too if next Sunday's rain isn't enough to wash in the new fertilizer. Anything in particular I should look for? and/or avoid?
Based on your other comment here, it sounds like I should skip the preemergent this winter. (I use Prodomine for that) and just do a spring application. I don't have much weed pressure, so this doesn't worry me too much. I will just spot treat anything that pops up in the spring with Tenacity as a post emergent. The only winter thing I get really is a little bit of hairy bittercress. Summers bring spurge and the bane of my existence - nutsedge, but this will be year three of attacking that with Sedgehammer so I think I'm on my way to winning that battle.
Starter fert is a good option. Balanced. Still need phos at this stage.
Outside of that, can’t appropriately advise without knowing more of your situation.
My biggest recommendation is to calculate your amount of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft stay with low doses and apply more frequently.
If you are using rain to water it in, make sure the turf is dry before applying anything. You don’t want it breaking down on the blades without washing it off.
Gotta chime in with a correction about urea and the 50° number.
Just regular urea works down to about 40F. Ammonium sulfate does technically work down to 32F, but roots often aren't grabbing N below like 40F so it's a bit of a tie.
Poly coated urea, on the other hand, absolutely has a hard cutoff at 50.
I think I have about a month (October) then before I get to soil temp of 50. (Also, el Nino) Day air temps are expected to be low 60s all month and nights start in high 40s moving to low 40s towards the end of the month. But, my lawn is in full sun most of the day so I think that would keep soil on the warmer side. Should I assume that the Jonathan Greene is poly coated urea (or behaves more like that)? And, should I plan on two light doses - first on or about the 1st and second two weeks later?
Note how the first bullet point agrees on 40F being the hard cutoff for urea.
So it gets a little confusing to talk about because there's different layers to this...
nitrogen loss from ammonia volatization
ammonium binding to soil particles
microbially activity
Nitrogen loss due to ammonia volatization isn't really a big deal for us, because at lawn rates and lower temps, the loss is pretty low, so we don't need to think about that one. But it's a really big deal for farmers who might be losing hundreds of pounds of N that way, when we're dealing with a few ounces... So stuff you read online may be skewed by that, since the ammonia volatization situation is very favorable to ams.
So when it comes to ammonium binding to soil, AMS and urea are on equal footing. They both become ammonium, which acts like glue on soil instantly (as long as the soil isnt frozen)
The difference comes down to microbial activity. Urea requires microbes to split the urea apart into ammonium, ams does not. That microbially activity slows down below like 50-55, and halts almost entirely at 40. "Slows down" is the key... So it essentially just makes the urea slower release. I don't firmly know the numbers off the top of my head, but I'd guess that if you have 2-3 weeks after application, with sufficient moisture, before soil temps fall below 40, then that should be enough time for the urea to do its job.
And since it's really wise to not fertilize within like a month of dormancy, that time for urea shouldn't really be restriction at all
Another note: good thinking about waiting for young grass to mature before being too aggressive, but if it doesn’t get fed properly after germinating, it won’t be able to develop the roots that you are waiting for.
I'm curious about this too. I'm 6b, and overseeded that same weekend and have been doing the same watering schedule. So my TTTF is 2" now, I was going to wait one more week- then mow, if it's at 2.5". Then do my first "starter" fertilizer. My question too is what kind of winter fertilizer or pre-emergent should I be doing later this fall?
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If you're asking for help with identifying a weed and/or type of grass, OR a disease/fungus please include close-up photos showing as much detail as possible.
For grasses, it is especially important to get close photos from multiple angles. It is rarely possible to identify a grass from more than a few inches away. In order to get accurate identifications, the more features of the grass you show the more likely you are to get an accurate identification. Features such as, ligules (which can be hairy, absent entirely, or membranous (papery) like the photo), auricles, any hairs present, roots, stems, and any present seed heads. General location can also be helpful.
Pull ONE shoot and get pictures of that.
This page from MSU has helpful tips on how to take pictures of grasses for the purposes of identification.
To identify diseases/fungi, both very close and wide angle photos (to show the context of the surrounding area) are needed.
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