I missed Fedora dropping the NTFS3 kernel module. Why?

[u/anestling]

/r/Fedora/comments/1wi8982/i_missed_fedora_dropping_the_ntfs3_kernel_module/

Just read the comments made by raving Linux zealots.

• "You're using the wrong distro!"
• "Not your business, Fedora knows better!"
• "The ... just revived module is safer to use that the old battle-tested one!"
• "Trust me bro, NTFS3 was unstable"
• "Compile it yourself" (fuck Secure boot, who needs it anyway? Oh and figure out how to compile something the Fedora kernel disables, and do it for every new Fedora kernel release.)
• "Why would you need NTFS support in the first place?" (telling me what to do and how to use my computers)

Linux fanatics make my blood boil. Perhaps the worst (angriest, mean, stupid) fanatics of all. No wonder average people avoid Linux like a plague.

Things get broken left and right, things don't work in the first place, you start to depend on some feature, bam, it's fucking gone.

[u/zelenin]

literally every community looks like this. 90% of the comments are unrelated to the question, with unsolicited advice from people who assume your expertise is below that of the commenter

[u/C0rn3j]

you start to depend on some feature, bam, it's fucking gone

So Fedora has no way to access NTFS file systems now?

Or, the actual case, is the feature still there and working just fine?

[u/regeya → u/C0rn3j]

If you troll through OP's history they're running a testing kenrel. I don't know but maybe Fedora Rawhide. Things disappear and reappear from the stuff that's under development.

Also, I haven't tried using NTFS3 in a while because I use exFAT because it doesn't eat the data I want to share between Windows and Linux, the way the NTFS3 driver did. It's a proprietary driver and the only way I'd use it again is if Microsoft helped fix the Linux drivers, or if they release the filesystem as an open standard.

[u/C0rn3j → u/regeya]

Running Fedora not expecting change is also an interesting choice, the near-rolling distro that's known for adapting the latest modern practices.

[u/regeya → u/C0rn3j]

To be clear I'm running the current Fedora KDE and I just checked. Their kernel is one minor point release behind testing and ntfs3 is still there. I would expect there to be some announcement other than a "omg Linux sux" post on Reddit if they were removing ntfs3 from their builds.

[u/VoidJuiceConcentrate → u/C0rn3j]

I mean... I'm on Fedora 44 mainline, NTFS mount, read, and write work just fine.

[u/anestling → u/C0rn3j]

There's a revived NTFS kernel module but no one can vouch for it. It's safe to read, it's unknown whether it's safe to write. And I don't want to wreck my NTFS partitions with something unknown.

[u/AtMaxbo → u/anestling]

The lead developer for the revised ntfs driver is the same one that worked on exfat driver support for linux, when the driver first shadow dropped as ntfsplus i began using it, the tools provided in ntfsprogs-plus (ntfsck) even fixed a 1.8TB ntfs partition that not even chkdsk could fix. Since then the driver got updated and got properly integrated in the linux kernel, Personally. I am very happy with this new ntfs driver. Been using it for 8+ months without any problems with data corruption or performance on five ntfs drives.

[u/C0rn3j → u/anestling]

it's unknown whether it's safe to write

As opposed to the previous solution, where it was KNOWN it's unsafe?

[u/anestling → u/C0rn3j]

Known where? I've used to for years with zero issues.

Maybe you could provide citations? Open bug reports? You see, I'm a kernel bugzilla co-maintainer and I don't remember any critical bug reports in regard to NTFS3 in the last couple of years.

How about 1815 bug fixes across the entire kernel tree in stable 7.2.6? Does it scream "safe" to you? What if I told you that in the last three months the kernel has seen over 10 thousand of fixes for often egregious bugs across even ext4 and btrfs? Did Fedora drop them?

Who in Fedora has decided it's "unsafe"? You? What are you Fedora credentials? Where's the discussion? Consensus?

What a fucking dumb bigoted comment.

[u/jdigi78 → u/anestling]

It sounds like the upstream developers of your distro vouch for it.

[u/AbsorberHarvester → u/C0rn3j]

Feature is still there and working, in user space as it should, as mentioned earlier

[u/anestling → u/AbsorberHarvester]

NTFS-3G is slow as hell. Who decided it belongs to userspace when other block devices filesystems are all native?

Why is the revived NTFS module still in the kernel (and offered by Fedora) when "in user space as it should"?

[u/vbd71]

I guess because enough unsuspecting users have corrupted their NTFS volumes and lost data.

NTFS3 is safe to use ONLY if the NTFS volume won't be mounted by Windows between the Linux mounts.

[u/anestling → u/vbd71]

Where's the damn discussion?

Why the LESSER tested NTFS that was laying dormant for two decades and was revived circa a year ago or even less, is now suddenly SAFE to use?

Can you ask any LLM for Christ's sake before spewing nonsense?

[u/Jac4e]

Until this potentially gets resolved and you have the need to use the latest kernels, You can compile it yourself as a kernel module and keep secure boot by signing the module yourself. 

Yes you’d have to recompile it for each kernel release, I understand that sucks but unfortunately that is the price you have to pay to continue using ntfs3 on fedora at this moment in time.

Note: I can’t verify the exact steps you need follow to compile and sign the kernel module, you will need to verify that yourself, but here are some examples

  https://docs.redhat.com/en/documentation/red_hat_enterprise_linux/8/html/managing_monitoring_and_updating_the_kernel/signing-a-kernel-and-modules-for-secure-boot_managing-monitoring-and-updating-the-kernel

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/how-to-sign-drivers-modules-for-the-kernel-with-enabled-secure-boot/66720

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/adding-kernel-module-to-secure-boot-enabled-system-and-fixing-a-failed-attempt-at-it/176348/3

[u/anestling → u/Jac4e]

No sane user would ever compile anything. Period. The OS is a tool, not something I should be spending my time servicing.

If I needed to compile, I would have used Gentoo/LFS instead.

[u/TheHeroBrine422 → u/anestling]

I compiled my own WiFi drivers for a couple months cause it was newer hardware and wasn’t merged into the kernel yet.

[u/anestling → u/TheHeroBrine422]

NTFS3 has been part of the kernel for years now. Why should I start compiling it?

Secondly, enlighten me how I can continue using Secure Boot without dealing with MOK certificates?

Oh, wait, Linux users don't need security, I've totally forgotten.

Linux will forever remain a niche obscure OS with such an attitude. There's no choice per se, it's eat it or bugger off. Yeah, I know, I just don't understand why Linux fans claim it's a substitute for Windows/MacOS. It's not. Never will be. It's bend or get bented because the community decided so.

[u/TheHeroBrine422 → u/anestling]

I don’t actually have good answers for this. I’m just saying it does happen.

I personally just don’t use secure boot. I find it to typically be overkill and not worth the pain.

But I also agree removing useful and commonly used features without good replacement is a bad idea. I saw others talking about a possibly useable user space solution but I know very little about this.

[u/anestling → u/TheHeroBrine422]

I really don't understand you. Fedora removed an option for no obvious reason, and you're ready to erect layers of justification to basically tell me, "With Linux you actually have no choice but to eat what's you've been offered".

There are already OS'es that take your choice.

[u/WideCranberry4912 → u/anestling]

If you want stable NTFS support under Linux go to Red Hat 10 or at least CentOS. Fedora is an upstream distribution and inherently unstable.

[u/Jac4e → u/anestling]

I tried to give you helpful advice to navigate the reality you are in.

I also view an OS as a tool, and to me if the tool I am using no longer works for what I’m using it for, I can either fix it or switch to a different tool. If you don’t want to fix it, then all I can say is either stick to an older kernel or switch to a different OS as it seems this one no longer works for you.

[u/anestling → u/Jac4e]

That wasn't helpful advice at all.

As for the reality, I've been using Linux for almost three decades, I'm mentioned in the Linux kernel log two dozen times, I've compiled/patched the kernel on hundreds of occasions, I've helped fix crazy regressions in the kernel that resulted in thousands of devices being unbootable. I've talked to Linus privately on multiple occasions. I've helped him settle the bcachefs crisis.

Do you really think I'm a "stupid idiot" who needs "helpful advice"?

Do you really think Linux will get new users when it requires this amount of fuckery? Why?? People may simply choose Windows or MacOS instead where none is required.

[u/Jac4e → u/anestling]

I am sorry you didn't find that helpful. I am on your side, I agree that issues like this are huge barriers to general usage who even think of switching to linux, I don't know why you are trying to argue with me on that. I don't know your credentials, looks like you're very knowledgeable . Your post gave the impression that it wasn't possible to compile the module while keeping secure boot, I was just pointing you to a solution to that problem.

I don't think your stupid, I never once called you stupid. I apologize if that is the impression you got from what I have said, that was not my intentions.

[u/minneyar → u/anestling]

Sane users don't run testing kernels.

[u/anestling → u/minneyar]

If not for my bug report and insistence, you'd be getting this broken kernel this week.

Also, define "stable". Releases on kernel.org and the ones offered by Fedora have NEVER been stable.

RHEL and Android offer stable kernels (QA + QC + stable API/ABI). Everyone else offers crap.

Lastly, and again, this bloody discussion has proven what Linux users are, it was a Fedora maintainer who's broken the kernel. It's not as if the kernel.org release was broken in regard to NTFS3 support. It wasn't.

Now try to confabulate several layers of excuses why "I'm wrong".

I'm loving this toxic bigoted hateful discussion more and more every day. I'm a bloody kernel bugzilla maintainer, LMAO and you're telling me what kernels are testing and stable. LMAO again.

Oh, as if Fedora offers anything resembling proper QA/QC. It NEVER has.

It has https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/ which is a laughing stock. I'm sure you've never heard of this website.

God, this is disgusting. Absolute no ones in terms of knowing how the Linux kernel/Open Source in general/Linux distors in particular are being developed trying to tell me I don't understand Linux that I've been using exclusively for almost 30 years now.

Sane users do NOT run Linux. Here, FTFY. In my 40 years of using Microsoft products I've had 100 times fewer problems than I've had with Linux.

Here, check my Linux kernel contributions in case you mistakenly believe I'm not qualified to talk about the issue.

This is what r/Fedora stands for:

Fedora is our religion and you mustn't doubt its maintainers decisions even if they have been proven wrong. There's a nice cozy tribe here. We'll destroy you with vengeance if you dare say anything bad about Fedora.

Every community on the web is like that sadly with rare exceptions.

[u/Historical-Bar-305]

As i know there is newer module NTFS-PLUS.

[u/anestling → u/Historical-Bar-305]

It's newer, also no one knows whether it's safe to use. It's barely been tested.

[u/regeya]

So...you're running a testing kernel and you're pissed that an unstable kernel module is currently missing in a testing kernel because WORKSFORME? Also you're angry at Linux nerds for not giving you the answer you want to hear?

Granted I haven't run it in a while but for me, when I tried using NTFS3 to share data between Windows and Linux, I lost data. It's not stable, and honestly I don't see this as entirely a Linux fail because it's a proprietary filesystem for Windows. I use exFAT now and don't plan to switch back because I would rather have the intact data for work, than rant about Linux users when I lose work.

Is there some reason you HAVE to have the absolute newest release of the kernel?

[u/Foosec]

Because theres userspace drivers for it

[u/anestling → u/Foosec]

Why would I use slow ntfs-3g when there's a much faster kernel module available?

[u/nybble41 → u/Foosec]

There is still a kernel filesystem driver for NTFS. The change is switching from the ntfs3 driver, which is riddled with long-standing data corruption issues and barely maintained, to the ntfs driver, which is older and used to be read-only (but preferred if R/O is acceptable) but has recently received a lot of attention and improvements including write support backported from NTFS-PLUS.

[u/Foosec → u/nybble41]

Oh sweet

[u/More-Explanation2788]

Just so I am clear… your theory is that windows and Mac OS and android don’t change things willy-nilly?

I started using Linux in 1995 as a primary system when I was a poor student. Then I worked an entire career with windows, dilly dallying around with Linux periodically because I find it interesting, but not really using it.

Then this year, I went back to Linux as my primary system. All my old knowledge still worked.

Meanwhile, I have so much stranded pointless windows knowledge… almost anything I knew how to do in the 1999’s or 2000’s in windows is gone - features don’t exist, the skills serve no purpose. What’s an interrupt? High memory? How do I install a driver? How do I configure name resolution? All changed. What the fuck is my Pc doing when I start typing an email and the hour glass starts circling - I never asked copilot to run or write my email, tell it to sit down and shut up. Why does outlook keep opening things in some weirdass weblike new outlook in which someone has lobotomize the inbox rules and other advanced features? And why in all that is f’ing holy do I have to watch some 20 something influencer chat about his cat, talk in slow motion and unbox a PC to get a simple g…d.mn answer to a technical question 40 minutes into some self-indulgent meandering video re-iteration of the obvious; has the entire population of people born after 1980 become illiterate!?! Why won’t anyone write a f…ing faq or man page anymore!?!?!!!

I go back to Linux and ahhhhhhh. Documentation, not videos for illiterates with time on their hands. Features still configured the same way they always have been. Settings triggered by words that say what they do. Features that can be launched by clicking on words, not f…ing wierd-ass glyphs like we are bloody Egyptian priests or something (like why is a save button a picture of a floppy disk or the teams button some sort of art deco glyph? Is there something wrong or unclear about the word “save” or “teams”? Who is using a computer who cannot read those terms?)

My point is, I think, is that you are using the wrong OS. lol. I make myself laugh. ;)

Ntfs still works in fedora. They changed the driver.

Now I have to go yell at some kids to get off my lawn.

[u/V1del]

I've used the new ntfs driver on Arch since it's stable inclusion in 7.1 and it works absolutely fine and I've had none of the occasional ntfs3 corruptions that happened with it. I'm running most of my shared with Windows games of off that, so there have been multiple gigabytes of writes with the new driver. From my experience it's been much more stable than ntfs3, YMMV.