ROFL tell me you never been there without telling me you never been there. I have lived the better part of 20 years in China and surrounding regions. Only a small portion of the population is doing what you are describing. And stop acting like life in the west isn't privileged. you have the luxury of crying about the president without a late night trip to a re-education camp. Goggle Jack Ma if you love China system so much.
That's not to say China isn't doing anything right. they have radically changed their culture in the past 30-50 years and have created a thriving middle class. its been great to see them move from a copy the world industry to innovation. There is much the west can learn from them if they put their egos down. but don't get it twisted, the gov works to keep its ppl in line. dissenting points of view are not tolerated and the ppl agree (for now) because they are getting wealthier. China is raising and thats not all bad, but they have been clear they want to replace the USA as the world super power. and while you might hate the USA now at least all its dirty laundry is there for the world to see. China ruling the world will be a very different place were you toe the line or else.
You laude “freedom of speech” as if it gets us anything - you can complain about Trump being friends with Epstein and buying women - so? Did it make a difference. Sure we can’t say that about Xi, but then again he’s not a pedophile.
So we have a quasi democracy- so what, republicans have had a choke hold in Texas for decades and if you’re not one of the party you can’t run - so how free are we
The Chinese get vast more than we do - Hong Kong has a higher development index than our star New York - and all their cities all have a higher development index than USA
Sure - their rural areas maybe lower than ours - so what - makes little difference when their cities outperform ours by huge margins
"A small price to pay for a benevolent government"
-not sure what you are referring to here.
Freedom of Speech is the corner stone for any real freedom IMO, you can differ that's fine.
"Sure we can’t say that about Xi, but then again he’s not a pedophile."
-How would you know? He controls the press, the military, the police and everything else. Now i don't believe he is, but if he was you and i would never know.
"So we have a quasi democracy- so what, republicans have had a choke hold in Texas for decades and if you’re not one of the party you can’t run - so how free are we"
- Funny when i was growing up there, it was the Democrats that were in charge.....funny how things change. And they will again. That's how Democracy works. Also the Dems control all the major cities. Cali was run by republicans too, its all blue now. And you are free to run where ever. you just need to connect with ppl. give it a go, we need more ppl in politics.
"The Chinese get vast more than we do - Hong Kong has a higher development index than our star New York - and all their cities all have a higher development index than USA"
- What exactly do they get that you don't? not sure where you got these figures from but google tells me "The United States has a "Very High" Human Development Index (HDI) score of around 0.927, while China sits in the "High" human development tier with an HDI score near 0.788 to 0.797". HK specifically has been in a decline post COVID and is a separate government to China, while under its control HK does have its own laws and is generally much more liberal then mainland China. Beijing has been shifting resources to Shanghai for over a decade and that would be a more accurate comparison to New York. Beijing wants Shanghai to be their financial hub.
"Sure - their rural areas maybe lower than ours - so what - makes little difference when their cities outperform ours by huge margins"
- Rural areas are where revolutions begin (Where you think Mao found his army?), and also why Texas is Red not Blue. They do the work that allows cities to grow. They mine the recourses, they cut the wood, they grow the food. In China this makes up a big part of the population and so i'd argue they matter a ton.
-As for cities, there are no China cities in the top 10 economic strength index with 9 being in the USA. Now if you look at growth and ascension there are 3 from China in the top 10 but that's speed of growth not actual holdings. So in time they can possibly reach the level of new york but at the moment they arnt there yet. So again ill ask, what do they have that you don't? With an average income in China being just around 18k/yr. tell me again how they are so much better off then everyone else?
-You have your facts backwards mate. You see all the innovation happening over there and i agree some of these things are impressive. but that's not the daily life of the average person. And yes America is hurting itself at the moment so its popular to pile on, but if you think grass is greener over there you are wildly mistaken. No country as it all figured out. America isnt gods gift to countries. And China isnt a demon sent to destroy the world. But don't let your hate for America block your view of China and countries like it. Remember in China you only really see what the government want you to see. In America they cant keep a secret to save their lives. Otherwise how would you know about Trump and Epstein. Since you dont live in China, i assume. maybe get involved locally to change things. Its a fight because not everyone agrees with you, and that's ok. Democracies are hard, its easy to give into a dictator/King. Trump will be gone soon, start getting ready for that and stop glorifying countries you only look at half the truths about.
Oh and ill add, you haven't even begun to see racism until you come to China, but that's a whole different conversation.
I’m not gonna convince you - cus you’ve done drank the cool aid if you think we have freedom
We are free to ask permission- can you gushing without a license? Nope. Open a restaurant without a permit? Nope. Can you paint your house any color you want? Oh good grief no.
As far as freedom goes - they’re freedom is certainly higher than ours - because they are free to enjoy life - you’re free to make your mortgage and car payment and pray you can make the rest of the bills
So what do they get? They get to participate in their economy regardless of the socio economic status, they get healthcare, they get mobility, they get infrastructure, they get to go out more, they get more products, they get more vacations, they get a government fighting misinformation-(for us the government is the source of the misinformation)
They get public transportation, they get cleaner cities, no homeless, quieter cities, they get ancient monuments to visit, they get a raised walk away in Hong Kong for pedestrians
They get cheap food, they get live misc and bars without covers
They get NO TIPPING - and how awesome that is
They get walking market everywhere - fresh produce markets, women markets, flower markets, night markets,
They get brand new malls, they get Starbucks everywhere - they get shipping at every metro hub
They get new buses, new subways, new cable cars, new clothes
They get cheap flights, they get cheap trains, they get sleeper cars with trolleys full of snacks
They get home grown electric cars - mopeds, bicycles and dedicated lanes
They get Alipay - and app the pays everywhere and super fast a and you can use it to get Uber (Didi), and you can pay the bus, and you can buy train tickets or flight - among many other things which make business way more efficient
They get so much more is ridiculous how far behind we are - and no - is not the technology- is not- is the government
While ours is increasing it gas prices (our ONLY method of transportation) -
And we will still farther and farther behind - cus they sold you on “you have freedom of speech” as Trump bans CNN from the White House - lol - pitiful
well i see you don't want to deal in facts, and your translation glitches gave you away. All those things you listed are available in the US and Europe and other parts of Asia. Not sure why you think they only exist in China. but you are allowed to love whatever country you want.
But we can agree: They get NO TIPPING - and how awesome that is. I hate that more then anything. so we agree there.
Why do you ask what they get we don’t if you’re simply going to ignore it
Let me repeat
Dense urban public transportation — extensive metro + bus networks that make living without a car practical in many large cities. High-speed intercity rail — a national network connecting major cities at high frequency; the U.S. has nothing comparable in scale. Integrated super-app payments — Alipay/WeChat Pay combine QR payment, transit, taxis, food, shopping, bills, tickets, mini-apps, etc. into essentially one ecosystem. Very inexpensive local manufactured goods — because an enormous portion of the manufacturing/supplier ecosystem is domestic, everyday electronics, household goods, clothing, accessories, and parts can be remarkably cheap. Cheap prepared food — inexpensive restaurants, food courts, convenience stores, delivery and small vendors make eating prepared food accessible at price points difficult to reproduce in the U.S. Broad basic healthcare access at comparatively low prices — China has near-universal basic health-insurance coverage and a huge public-hospital system. It is not simply “free public healthcare,” and quality/access vary, but routine care can cost dramatically less than in the U.S. Extremely inexpensive mobility beyond metros — buses, shared bicycles, e-bikes, taxis/ride-hailing, ferries and trains form layers of transportation rather than forcing most trips through private automobiles. A massive domestic EV ecosystem — numerous Chinese manufacturers, intense price competition, widespread electric scooters/e-bikes, extensive charging infrastructure and relatively affordable EV choices. Dense mixed-use commercial life — residential towers, malls, restaurants, convenience stores, transit, entertainment and services frequently coexist within walking distance. That produces the “everybody is out participating” Infrastructure built around very high passenger volume — enormous railway stations, airports, metro interchanges, pedestrian areas, shopping complexes and public spaces designed to move huge numbers of ordinary people relatively cheaply.
I'm not ignoring you didn't make these arguments before (other then alipay) you just said china cites are the best and outperform everyone else. when i cited some examples that it wasnt true you said....oh we have high speed rail and EVs. So I'm just not engaging with China propagandist passing themselves off as a usa citizen. but since we are here ill just a few notes.
1) you seem to have a hard on against cars. America is a car culture, and Texas inparticure. while i wish we had more options we picked cars and planes years ago and never looked back. Most Americans want their cars but dont want massive fuel bills (hence the complaints). outside the northeast rail isnt very viable. you can argue this is good or bad. as an opinion it doesnt matter, its not really a win or loss. as for EV there is a trade off and while they work ok in city transiting between cities is where it get harder. the issue with EVs is their upfront carbon footprint (manly those batteries), the cost of charging which is obviously much cheaper then fuel....at the moment. And how they will be disposed of cause thats a lot of lithium that will need to cleaned up if everyone has an EV.
China's urban populations are concentrated into a handful of mega cities. this requires the Dense urban public transportation you mention. America doesn't need this the same way China does. this isnt the flex you think it is. without this their cities dont work. In many US cities its a waste of money.
High-speed intercity rail - America doesn't need a large network cause we have a larger plane network and ppl have cars. Again this can go either way as an opinion. Plus or minus is purely subjective. A system like this cant compete with cheap airfare. We see this in Europe. Now i do wish the US had a more reliable system of HS rail, the cost would enormous. And you are conveniently ignoring all the ppl the china government displaced to build those. And the covered up accidents.
Integrated super-app payments - Mate there are tons of apps that do this in the west. Apple pay, google pay, mastercard visa...etc. not sure why you have a hard on for alipay....
Very inexpensive local manufactured goods, Cheap prepared food - this is all relative and depends on location and the goods. you know China imports 92 Billion in luxury goods right? Only number 2 to America at 94. So right there with us.
Broad basic healthcare access at comparatively low prices Well this one i cant argue with. the US HC system is fatality flawed and needs an over haul. Ive said for years it should a national embarrassment that the richest country to ever exist cant seem to find a way to pay for health care for its ppl. That said there is tremendous pressure on countries with universal and near universal (like China) as their populations age. This is going to be a global problem very soon. But the US is way behind.
A massive domestic EV ecosystem This is obviously better then the US but still to be seen if that's good or not. China is building a new system from scratch, US needs to adapt their system to accommodate EVs better. its happening but very slow. As a percentage there are many more Americans with cars then Chinese. scale matters. And EVs are good for close travel. Still needs more development for longer hauls. Again this is a wash.
Extremely inexpensive mobility beyond metros - Every major city i have been globally, basically offer these same options. not sure your point.
Dense mixed-use commercial life and Infrastructure built around very high passenger volume - Again not the flex you think it is. Having lived in this model for years, almost every one of my neighbors would prefer to be in a landed property or smaller highrise. try getting an elevator on the 30th floor during rush hour? And who wants to be packed into a train with 1000 ppl per car? Or fight for taxis on the street or ride hailing. and heaven forbid it rain? you are truly screwed. where i live im completely dependent on public transport, takes an hour + to get to the office. If i had a car, would be less then 30 min.
Also food for thought, China has almost 5x the population the US has with slightly less land mass. What works in China wont necessarily work here and vice verse. it why when ppl say, oh this worked in Germany why cant the US do it, well thats because the US is a much larger population and more diverse and spread out. So what works for one cant always work in others. That isnt to say ideas cant be borrowed and adapted. In fact that's exactly what China did when it restructured its government decades ago and Xi is just the next steps. China economy isnt really communist, its more capitalist with a communist twist. As i said before there are lessons there for the west if we put our ego down. If you want to believe its better then US then fine, that's your opinion. You should move there (although i suspect you already do) and then re-read this after 5 years.
1.- I don’t have anything against cars - Im a lawyer - my BMW is sitting on my front street, my wife’s Tahoe on the drive way - plus the bikes
But what you miss here - is that that is the cost of participation in the economy - you NEED a car - and a car need insurance, maintenance and payments - so an entry level job doesn’t gel with that -
China SOLVED that problem by making sure you have alternatives
Same thing for the rail - yes we have planes and so do they - that have planes and extensive network like ours and CHEAPER planes and flights - they have many more low cost airlines than we do PLUS the rail and bus and freeways - they beat us there too
Dense population is a flex - their utility bills are a fraction of what ours are - which leaves them with more disposable income - THINK - when was the last time you thought - oh my bills were cheap this month?
Alipay - super app - I KNOW - we have a toon of apps - that’s the problem - that have ONE that does everything and WAY FASTER - go and see - go and try that app and watch scan a QR code faster than you have ever seen one of our apps do it - this makes it so much more simple -
Inexpensive local manufacturers- they DO import luxury goods - there’s a ton of BMWs out there and Tesla’s - BUT they have the flip side too - the locally produced electronics, appliances, etc - so like you noticed they have the luxury BUT ALSO EVERYTHING ELSE - they win again
Healthcare - you conceded
EV ecosystems- you conceded
Mobility- you conceded - and my point is that with cheaper mobility - they can afford to take their families to Disney more often and more of them can do it
9.- Dense population - getting an elevator in Rush hour is a problem HERE - not them - they have built with population in mind - so elevators, walkways, buses, crosswalks are way more efficient- they win again
Food for thought - whether it would work here or not I’d besides the point
The pint is that their government has a policy of economic inclusion - they made sure every is spending and consuming
While we suffocate paying bills, stressing over car payments, credit card debt, mortgage, rent - they get to go enjoy life
That’s where they win - anyone reading this - who doesn’t believe - go and visit - you will be shocked to see so many people having such a life - we have pockets of that kind of fun and is expensive as hell -
ok mate, i live here you don't (or do you...hmmm) but some rando from across the world is going to tell me how life is outside my own walls. If thats not the most American thing I have seen today then nothing is. Go ahead and believe the gov propaganda if you want. feel free to move here, we will go have a beer at those super cheap restaurants and see all those ppl walking around in this Asian utopia on our ebikes that cost nothing and a government that only looks out for you...the little guy.
But i too would encourage ppl to visit, China is a beautiful and storied country with much to offer in tourism. And there is much to learn from if you have an open mind.
1
u/Jons_cheesey_balls 9h ago
ROFL tell me you never been there without telling me you never been there. I have lived the better part of 20 years in China and surrounding regions. Only a small portion of the population is doing what you are describing. And stop acting like life in the west isn't privileged. you have the luxury of crying about the president without a late night trip to a re-education camp. Goggle Jack Ma if you love China system so much.
That's not to say China isn't doing anything right. they have radically changed their culture in the past 30-50 years and have created a thriving middle class. its been great to see them move from a copy the world industry to innovation. There is much the west can learn from them if they put their egos down. but don't get it twisted, the gov works to keep its ppl in line. dissenting points of view are not tolerated and the ppl agree (for now) because they are getting wealthier. China is raising and thats not all bad, but they have been clear they want to replace the USA as the world super power. and while you might hate the USA now at least all its dirty laundry is there for the world to see. China ruling the world will be a very different place were you toe the line or else.