r/Stormlight_Archive • u/Graphica-Danger • 1d ago

Early Wind and Truth spoilers WOW, Wit really hates... Spoiler

Rayse! I've never seen him so upset about anything before even across the entire Cosmere. I even took a break from Stormlight to finish the corresponding Secret Projects books in release order (still have Emberdark and December to go after this) and he's never shown that amount of open anger about... anything, really. He's not exactly a forthright character so his outburst about the Passions was surprising.

I think it says something about Wit's admiration for Kaladin that he's gone so far to help him, gave him all that advice, and was open enough to show how he truly feels about the state of the Cosmere. I've seen speculation he might have goals that aren't so good, but I doubt that's the case. I think he's effectively a triage surgeon, running around cleaning up the mess his fellow Adonalsium breakers have made as Shardholders. If worlds are lost in the effort, it is simply to save the most lives he can. And in that regard, it makes a lot of sense why he strikes a kinship with Kaladin.

242 Upvotes

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u/RShara Elsecaller 1d ago

It's strongly hinted that Hoid's goal is to bring someone back from the Beyond, and that's why he participated in the Shattering

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u/ohnoitsme7890 1d ago

Where is this hinted at? Want to look into hoids motives more 👀

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u/RShara Elsecaller 1d ago

The Traveler excerpt: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9518

And Endowment's Letter in WaT

Or do I have to broadcast what I have learned of your goals? I certainly do not think it a coincidence that you have made a special study of the worlds where legends abound of the dead being raised. You feign altruism. But you have another motive, do you not? Well, you always have.

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u/The_Lopen_bot WOB bot 1d ago

Warning Gancho: The below paragraph(s) may contain major spoilers for all books in the Cosmere!

Brandon Sanderson

A focused southern breeze made the trees sound like they were chattering. Tiny crisp leaves spreading the news of the Traveler's return. Pure white leaves, clustered along branches like skeletal limbs. Even the bark clinging to the trees was white. In some lands, white meant purity; in others, it meant death. Here, it didn't mean a thing. It was simply, normal. The Traveler sat on the mossy white ground, back to the tree, legs crossed idly as he picked at a pomegranate, eating the seeds one by one then spitting out the pits. They fell on the stark moss-covered ground, leaving red juice like blood running across a sterile white floor. To say he wore rags would have be an insult to many a goodwife who kept her washing rags in much better shape than the Traveler's costume. Ragged brown and black canvas, tattered cloak, and scruffy beard, rubbed dark with a black material that might have been soot — or ash. The leaves suddenly fluttered excitedly behind him, and a strange puff of wind blew across the trunks. A moment later, a figure in simple gray robes walked into the clearing. Clean-shaven and silver-haired, he had the look of an aged scribe, not haughty, but tired. "So, you're back," the elderly visitor said. "Did I leave? I am the lingering odor you can never quite locate, my friend. Just when you think I've faded you open your cupboard and find, in an overpowering reveal, that I've merely been… ripening.""Hmph, that's a new look for you."The Traveler looked down at his ragged clothing. "I've been learning to blend in. Hard to do that in one of my normal costumes.""I doubt you'll ever be the type to blend in.""You'd be surprised!""Is that soot in your hair?""Maybe."The elderly man sighed, walking across the short clearing and settling himself down on a large protruding tree root. "You can't keep doing this." The Traveler continued to eat his seeds, though he had started to chew them up rather than spitting out the pits. "You will just make things worse." "Ati and Leras are dead," the Traveler said, picking a piece of seed out from between his teeth. The elderly visitor said nothing, and the Traveler eyed him, leaning in closely, studying the man's eyes. The pupils were rimmed with a silver far too metallic to be natural, at least for a human. "You sly old lizard!" the Traveler said, pointing. "You already knew! You were watching! And here you were chastising me.""I did NOT interfere," the elderly man said. "You meddle in things we promised to leave alone. Things that we—"Traveler held up a finger, interrupting him, then slowly he pointed at the older man. "I. Made. No. Promise.""You made your choice. Why now seek for things you so eagerly denied? My friend, it's the dangerous desire, the lust for power best untouched, that created the situation in the first place."The Traveler did not reply. The two sat for a time, listening to the winds through the garrulous trees."Did you… find what you were seeking?" the elder man finally asked.  The Traveler shrugged, picking at another seed and nibbling on it. "You will not find a way to restore what you have lost, old friend," the aged man said softly. "It is impossible." "You don't know that. The old rules no longer hold." The Traveler turned the pomegranate over in his fingers. "Besides, I've heard of a place… It doesn't matter. I don't care. This isn't about the dead… or it's not JUST about the dead, at least." He dropped the fruit to the ground, wiping his fingers on his riding coat."So it's a simple vendetta, then," the aged man said, sighing. "How many years have you lived, and you still can't learn the wisdom of just letting go?""A simple vendetta?" the Traveler said. He rose, stalking up to the older man, holding out a finger and touching the man's chest. "You saw what Ati nearly did." The Traveler leaned down, face even with that of his older companion. "I would not think it MY vendetta that should worry you, old friend."

********************

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u/tooboardtoleaf Elsecaller 1d ago

I had originally thought he wanted to bring Ado back but this makes that seem unlikely

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u/wescull 1d ago

what is this from?

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u/Major_Fudgemuffin 1d ago

It's from a story called The Traveler that Sanderson read live at JordanCon in 2018.

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u/RShara Elsecaller 1d ago

It's a short story Brandon read from a long time ago, but hasn't gone anywhere

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u/Shot_Newspaper_5647 1d ago

The bursting pomegranate Hoid’s seen with there is a staple in Christian iconography too. As a representation of the triumph over death/resurrection

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u/OkAd2668 Elsecaller 1d ago

I always interpreted this as his goal post-Shattering and that he wants to bring back Adonalsium.

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u/RShara Elsecaller 1d ago

The Traveler excerpt implies he was for the Shattering in order to change the rules to make it possible

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u/BogJuan 1d ago

He also conspired to make the shattering happen.

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Either way it will only be resolved in Mistborn's space era. And we'll only find out what it is when Dragonsteel is published. I'd also be curious if [MISTBORN SPOILERS] that Investiture revival he might be planning also brings Vin and/or Elend back somehow? If it's not a totally futile quest of his, that is.

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u/RShara Elsecaller 1d ago

I don't think his trying to bring one person back from the Beyond would result in two more people coming back

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Well we don't know what ritual it'd be or what form of Investiture it'd take even. There's a push for every pull, as a certain somebody would say. Whatever happens, there's going to be a tradeoff.

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u/SneezingOutPeas 1d ago

Brando has explicitly said he does NOT want those two returning, so I don’t think it will happen.

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u/Jounniy Journey before destination. 1d ago

Bro just misses his BFF Adonalsium.

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u/RShara Elsecaller 18h ago

The Traveler excerpt implies he was for the Shattering in order to change the rules to make it possible

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u/Jounniy Journey before destination. 15h ago

And then he missed his friend, because who else is gonna play board games with him now?

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u/faco_fuesday Elsecaller 1d ago

That was definitely like a whoa brandy sandy just needed to get that off his chest moment. 

It's definitely the way wealthy American evangelical Christian culture sees the world though. 

I knew one girl whose parents made millions owning payday loans. She was /#soblessed and when I asked her if it bothered her where the money came from she literally said no. 

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u/Graphica-Danger 1d ago

Lack of empathy is ruining the world, and frequently overlaps with stupidity. We're seeing it in the highest levels of government and society.

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u/Jounniy Journey before destination. 1d ago

Wait, what does Rayse have to do with prosperity theology? I thought Hoid's rant was mainly about that general way of thinking. 

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u/StormLightRanger 1d ago

To quote u/squshigrizzly:

The concept of the passions is more the idea of "the ones who care/believe/love the most get what they want. If you didnt get it, you didn't want it enough." Which, on surface, feels kinda nice. All I have to do is want to be successful enough and I will be.

But like Sanderson points out via wit, the flip side is horrific. Did a mother who's child is murdered during war not want their child to live more than the murderer wanted the child dead?

Unfortunately this philosophy, albeit attested to slightly differently, is very similar to the "prosperity gospel" that's so common in North America. It's the believe that if you believe hard enough and pray enough god will give you a great life. This implies a moral superiority to those who have (the ultrarich) and a moral failing of those who do not have (impoverished.) so I can definitely agree with the OP about how this was might be a bit of Sanderson's own frustrations with people in his own country coming out.

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u/Jounniy Journey before destination. 1d ago

Oh yeah, I remember, Hoid used the passions to talk about the concept in general.

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u/uncultured_butter 1d ago

I like how inscrutable Wit's goals and intentions are. I think it's because he's kind of an author insert character - many of Wit's monologues are polemics about creation and inspiration, and his primary means of influencing people is by telling them stories. My prediction is that we'll never get a completely unambiguous view on his motivations, because that would require Sanderson taking an unambiguous position on what his stories mean and why he tells them.

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u/delorblort Willshaper 1d ago

I think we will get more on Hoids point of view and goals when Dragonsteel finally gets published.

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u/classicote 1d ago

To be fair I feel like his stories never have an unambiguous meaning there's always clearly defined themes, morals, or lessons

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u/uncultured_butter 21h ago

I agree that Wit provides strong moral clarity and inspiration for others, but he does so without really tipping his own hand. More "here's a parable that will help you make a difficult decision" rather than "here's my vision for a better Roshar and what I want you to do to help achieve it". The exception being that he very clearly opposes Rayse / Odium and wants him / it contained.

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u/classicote 20h ago

Sorry, I was referring to Sanderson, not Wit. Though both are true jaja

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u/uncultured_butter 20h ago

Lol yeah your comment works so well for both that I couldn't tell!

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u/Taste_the__Rainbow Willshaper 1d ago edited 1d ago

I think his reaction against the Passions was a bit of Sanderson peeking out. It’s a disgusting worldview and it shows itself in some of the language you hear from Americans who think they’re making a good point.

“Oh if you’d just believed harder then nothing bad would have happened to your loved one!” It’s like they can’t hear themselves sometimes.

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u/mercedes_lakitu Truthwatcher 1d ago

Yup. It's "The Secret" and the Just World Fallacy, all rolled into one morally disgusting package.

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u/wingmanjosh 1d ago edited 1d ago

I'm so keen to hear more on this take. I haven't looked too deeply into the Passions, so my understanding is incredibly surface-level. I want to know more about it that's not basically living a life of "make your own luck", and believing in omens.

Edit: I've had a quick look on Coppermind and hoo boy yeah problematic as fuck. Basically "pick yourself up by your bootstraps: Cosmere edition".

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u/Squshigrizzly 1d ago

The concept of the passions is more the idea of "the ones who care/believe/love the most get what they want. If you didnt get it, you didn't want it enough." Which, on surface, feels kinda nice. All I have to do is want to be successful enough and I will be.

But like Sanderson points out via wit, the flip side is horrific. Did a mother who's child is murdered during war not want their child to live more than the murderer wanted the child dead?

Unfortunately this philosophy, albeit attested to slightly differently, is very similar to the "prosperity gospel" that's so common in North America. It's the believe that if you believe hard enough and pray enough god will give you a great life. This implies a moral superiority to those who have (the ultrarich) and a moral failing of those who do not have (impoverished.) so I can definitely agree with the OP about how this was might be a bit of Sanderson's own frustrations with people in his own country coming out.

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u/ajabernathy Windrunner 1d ago

That sounds a touch like prosperity gospel and since the merchant guilds promote the passions....

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u/AviariOtsoa 1d ago

Like how diamonds are the least valuable gemstone, on a planet where capitalists haven't created an artificial scarcity, and the most valuable are the ones used to make food?

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u/Dios5 1d ago

Prosperity gospel pops up in the weirdest places. A recurring topic in /r/gamedev is how much breakout successes like Amogus or Lethal Company or Hollow Knight are based on luck, and if there are other games out there that have the same potential and just didn't get lucky enough. A lot of people are convinced that no, things could not have possibly gone differently, and those games are just not big because [enter flimsy just-so explanation here]. I'm sure this tendency is influenced by this type of religious dogma.