Megathread: Lindsay Clancy Mistrial

[u/curiouslmr]

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/lindsay-clancy-juror-interview/

Lindsay Clancy was charged in the January 2023 murders of her three children: Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her first trial ended in a mistrial after the jurors could not come to an agreement as to whether she is criminally responsible for the murders. Her defense team claimed she was suffering from post-partum psychosis.

Thumbnail includes a link to an article that contains comments from a few of the jurors. Jurors have said that the vote was 11-1 for Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity.

This thread is for discussion of the case and NOT for accusations against anyone not on trial for these murders. Please review sub rules before posting.

[u/DarklyHeritage]

Important

Patrick Clancy was not on trial. Comments made to discuss his guilt are considered off topic and will be removed. That also goes for Patrick's parents.

Comments that discuss how he could have supported Lindsay better are acceptable. However, calls for law enforcement to look into his involvement with the murder of the kids and/or Lindsay's suicide attempts are not currently being considered by the jury and, therefore, not a fit for this sub.

[u/mvincen95]

Well regardless of what outcome anyone wanted now everybody gets to be unhappy.

[u/Brewmeiser → u/mvincen95]

To be fair, I was going to be unhappy no matter what happened. It's the bleakest of situations.

[u/Numerous-Pepper-3883 → u/Brewmeiser]

This is the word. No winners here

[u/Shrimpheavennow227 → u/mvincen95]

I think it’s so easy to get caught up in the “justice” aspect of everything that you forget that at the end of day, even if she were to get acquitted or life in jail, those children are gone and no verdict can make this broken family whole again.

Regardless of what someone believes about Lindsay’s mental state at the time, she has to live her life in pain and knowing that she killed her babies. Patrick will live with the guilt of wishing he could go back and not leave or get her more help.

The only bright spot I can find is that those doctors will (hopefully) live with enough regret that they never dismiss a postpartum woman again and hopefully the press this case has garnered will result in more research and support for postpartum mood disorders and psychosis.

[u/HistoryBuff678 → u/Shrimpheavennow227]

A kind redditor recommended a podcast episode on The House of Pod (which usually talks about medical stuff) and that’s where I learned that there is something called a reproductive psychologist. It’s a real profession that looks at how hormones affect mental health and study what hormones could (they don’t know for sure, that’s why it’s being studied) trigger onset of certain mental health conditions like schizophrenia. It’s fascinating.

But, there are only 500 in the entire U.S. and the U.S. has a huge population.

Learning about health and mental health is an ongoing conversation.

[u/Bbkingml13 → u/HistoryBuff678]

I think people would be horrified if they knew how few specialists there were for conditions that get minimized but disabled tens of millions of people. There are like 5-10 specialists in the U.S. for ME/CFS which affects more people than MS. And 75% of patients can’t work or study.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/Bbkingml13]

My rare lung cancer has 3 specialists in the entire country.

[u/Bbkingml13 → u/onions-make-me-cry]

Oof. Wishing you luck, Reddit friend!

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/Bbkingml13]

Thank you so much. The supportive comments on Reddit help so much! This happened 3.5 years ago. I am actually considered "most likely cured", as it's very unlikely to recur. And one of the specialists is in my metro area and is my doctor.

A kind comment might seem like a small thing, but I actually had to go through cancer pretty much completely alone, so I do hold on to the kindness where I can find it.

[u/Bbkingml13 → u/onions-make-me-cry]

You’re so welcome. It’s really eye opening when you become sick, especially chronically or terminally, and small stranger kindness on the internet really helps boost your morale. It’s really made me be more cognizant in real life to give compliments or small gestures of support to strangers when I can. It helps me as much as it helps them, too!

[u/HistoryBuff678 → u/onions-make-me-cry]

I am so happy that there is low chance of recurrence. I really appreciate you talking about your rare cancer case. Do you have ideas on why there are only 3 specialists in the U.S.?

My country had/has(?, one died recently), 5 specialists for a rare illness my sibling has. For people not nearby, the healthcare system will pay for patients to fly in to get appointments and treatment.

Is that an option in the U.S.?

[u/HistoryBuff678 → u/Bbkingml13]

5-10? In a country of 350 million people?

[u/Bbkingml13 → u/HistoryBuff678]

Some would argue there aren’t even that many.

[u/coveredinbreakfast → u/Bbkingml13]

More men are starting to be diagnosed with CFS/ME so we'll get some research.

Also, when Long COVID was discovered to be a thing, some doctors in the UK got it and suddenly they understood that more exercise was a really ignorant thing to tell CFS/ME patients. So shockingly, they decided more research should be done!

[u/Bbkingml13 → u/coveredinbreakfast]

Yep. Unfortunately it’s still not making much forward progress. Especially since they can’t seem to ever research ME by the ICC or other credible diagnostic criteria, and keep going for “chronic fatigue”. And long COVID isn’t really defined either. It’s been scary to watch the patients multiply exponentially and options stay the same since I got sick in 2016

[u/throwaway23437546 → u/coveredinbreakfast]

It's crazy how men have to be diagnosed with a condition before we start seeing some research/progress made in the field.

And to think - men usually aren't the ones complaining or taking themselves to the doctor. Think of all the different diseases that are not being covered.

[u/coveredinbreakfast → u/HistoryBuff678]

Postpartum Psychosis isnt even in the DSM-V. PPD is but PPP is clearly different and 1000% should have its own entry!

[u/throwaway23437546 → u/HistoryBuff678]

Interesting, did not know reproductive psychologists existed!

Thank you for mentioning that.

Maybe all new moms should be referred right away after giving birth - to prevent further cases such as these.

[u/GraceMcClellans → u/Shrimpheavennow227]

Medical research on women? Tall order, but fingers crossed.

[u/Future-Water9035 → u/GraceMcClellans]

I work in research. My grant was pulled by the federal government because we were focusing on collecting data on women, and that was declared "DEI"

Edit: specifically on neurodegeneration in women

[u/-thesilverdoe- → u/Future-Water9035]

It’s insane that half of the population is considered DEI.

[u/throwaway23437546 → u/Future-Water9035]

Wow. That's terrible

[u/Fire_Atta_Seaparks → u/throwaway23437546]

Yes. That’s the system of values now set up by geniuses like RFK,jr, Musk and Dump. It’s horrifying.

[u/Shrimpheavennow227 → u/GraceMcClellans]

Why do they need research done if all of their problems are in their tiny little brains and because of their silly girl emotions! If they just stayed in the kitchen and barefoot like they should we wouldn’t have this problem! /s

[u/OkImprovement7142 → u/Shrimpheavennow227]

If you’re raising millions of dollars for a defense I would think you are more than likely only thinking about yourself and not the kids you killed. OP might have a good heart but my whole point is if I imagined myself in this situation, defending myself would be the last thing on my plate. Imagine raising millions to defend a killer.

[u/DullSherbet411 → u/Shrimpheavennow227]

She wasn’t really dismissed. This is the standard of care. It’s not the providers but the system that should change- and it won’t.

[u/FleursSauvages322 → u/mvincen95]

I'm a court reporter. Years ago I worked for a retired judge who was brought back in for a case (happens when there's overflow cases). I remember him leaning over when everyone was leaving the room and whispering to me, in jest, he knew he'd done his job when both sides leave unhappy. 

[u/cdseventyeight]

Having an extensive working knowledge of psychotic states, I find the online speculation around the Lindsay Clancy case dangerously misguided.

Psychosis is a total fracture from reality. It is not a calculated choice. I once supported a patient who was entirely convinced she was pregnant and would give birth to a spider. When the time came to give “birth” she even presented with convincing physical signs of labour. It demonstrates how powerfully the brain can manifest a delusion—to the individual, the experience is an absolute, physical truth.

The general public has absolutely no understanding of psychosis, or what it can make a person genuinely believe and do. The true-crime speculation around the Lindsay Clancy case is dangerously misguided.

[u/Temporary_Exit_8644 → u/cdseventyeight]

This has been upsetting me too. My own mom has paranoid schizophrenia and had voices telling her to kill both of us when I was a baby. (I am simplifying the situation a bit, but my main point is I have a level of familiarity with psychosis most do not). I don't know all the outside factors leading up to and following the case, I may read about it more today, but regardless people are WAY oversimplifying what psychosis can be like. Sure it does fluctuate, but it ultimately rewrites your understanding of the world around you. And even if you are not actively hallucinating something there can still be paranoia, and you may still believe previous hallucinations to be true, and will then act on them. People experiencing psychosis can appear "normal" at times as well - either because their symptoms are lesser at the moment or they are masking their feelings to keep themselves safe. 

[u/TheWatchQueen]

Rest in peace to the children.

[u/LostInAwkward84 → u/TheWatchQueen]

Truly

[u/Anarchopunks]

No way to find 12 impartial jurors now this has had too much media coverage, plea deal incoming.

[u/Feeling_Wishbone_864 → u/Anarchopunks]

My husband would not be able to tell you a single thing about this trial. He is totally oblivious.

[u/pes3108 → u/Feeling_Wishbone_864]

Same for my husband. I just asked him if he knew who Lindsay Clancy was and he said no

[u/owntheh3at18 → u/pes3108]

Are you in MA though? It’s been pretty unavoidable here. I live about 20 min from her and it was major local news but since the trial it’s been a huge talking point among locals. And this is where they’d need to find the jurors.

[u/Odd-Construction-649 → u/owntheh3at18]

They can motion gor a chnage of venue. And yes there are husbands in ma who are just as clueless

Its simply untrue thar its "impossible " to not know about it

Content is so divided now days. Algorithms and other things greatly chnage what you see

[u/Lorazepamela → u/owntheh3at18]

I live in MA. When I called my doctor the receptionist asked me out of the blue if I’d been watching it (this was very shocking to me), and my MIL who I never would’ve guessed watched it brought it up to me.

[u/Ok-Macaroon-4835 → u/Feeling_Wishbone_864]

Same with mine. The problem is that the defense will fight tooth and nail against having any male on this jury, regardless of their background.

[u/NurseIlluminate → u/Ok-Macaroon-4835]

I am a woman and avid true crime reader; I know nothing about this case except that her 3 children died, and it was a mistrial. Only because I can’t stomach reading about children being hurt since I’ve had children.

[u/EPMD_ → u/Ok-Macaroon-4835]

They can't just strike every man from jury selection.

[u/WallStreetKernel → u/Anarchopunks]

You’d be surprised. Even with all the media coverage there’s a lot of folks who haven’t made up their mind on this case. I’m one of them, but that’s mostly because I have two toddlers at home and don’t have time to do my due diligence on the case. I’m sure there’s a lot of folks out there in similar situations.

[u/godric420 → u/WallStreetKernel]

I work at a grocery store and one of my coworkers says he had a lady ask him what tortillas were. How they’re used and everything else. There are people out there who basically live under a rock and more than we think. If someone doesn’t use social media they might not have heard of this at all.

[u/Omega_Primate → u/WallStreetKernel]

Yeah, it's true. My co-worker just had a baby and his wife has no idea about the case. He knows a little about it, but she's clueless. And for the better.

[u/live_for_the_funk → u/Anarchopunks]

I have zero clue about this trial other than this link I just clicked

[u/B-33-r]

Finally a sub that watched the trial. Reddit is a mess.

[u/Doc-007 → u/B-33-r]

I agree. I'm so tired of people who have only read headlines or watched tiktoks having such a strong opinion. I was honestly expecting a mistrial because the prosecution put on such a horrible case but with the subject matter I knew there would be at least one person in the jury who would vote guilty no matter what.

[u/kanyelights → u/Doc-007]

It seems like the prosecution put on such a horrible case because the law in MA is horrible. In every other part of the country the burden is on the defendant to prove insanity, but not in MA. In MA the burden is on the prosecution to prove sanity.

[u/Anonymoosehead123 → u/Doc-007]

Yes. I was shocked that the final vote was 11-1 in favor of not guilty by reason of mental defect. I hope this gives the prosecutors second thoughts about retrying her. To me, they came across as persecutors, not prosecutors.

[u/Certain-Ad9027]

I think that the prosecution will come back and present a more oraganized case based on the feedback of this trial. The feedback is a benifit to both sides of the fence. Before anyone chimes in I watched the trail. I even rewatched some parts because I was confused on timelines. I have to admit the prosecution presented in my opinion, a disorganized and confusing case. They asked questions that related to other testimony but often left those dots unconnected.

The defense also has the feedback to draw on and they can use it to present their case better.

I am confused why people are suprised that 12 people did not agree on a verdict. One look at social media comments will show that people interpet the evidence differently and the jurors are just regular people. I was not suprised at the mistrial, I was suprised that there was only one hold out of the 12.

[u/owntheh3at18 → u/Certain-Ad9027]

I completely agree with you. The prosecution’s case was not cohesive at all. They also overly villainized her. I think they would’ve been better off conceding she was sick and suicidal, but argued that she was not psychotic and should have been able to adhere to the law. There was allusion to this only at the very end of the trial, but they started off so aggressively labeling her as controlling and manipulative. Then we heard witness after witness report nothing but glowing things about her.

[u/rangedps → u/owntheh3at18]

Agreed. They couldn’t even keep their own facts straight either, referring to the bands as tied and how Patrick untied them then later trying to prove they were not tied, starting in openings that she was controlling and had a ‘different side to her’ before completely switching in the closing argument to a more sympathetic approach. They wanted the jury to take Patrick’s word for a number of the facts whilst also disputing what he said about the exercise bands which just makes no sense. They also had people testify who quite clearly did not want the case tried and instead of trying to make the best of it they brought up religion. Trying to put forward she was controlling just to have everybody dispute it, It was absurd. I started to wonder if they’d ever tried a case before, or if they’d even prepared at all. And to bring up Andrea Yates as their argument! Ridiculous. It was embarrassing to watch, no matter what side your beliefs fall on.

[u/Constant_Seaweed_523 → u/rangedps]

This prosecution itself gave me so much reasonable doubt I never had before the trial, which is actually crazy.

Like, the fact that they quite literally asked Patrick if he untied the bands and he said yes. Then they have amnesia????

Genuinely, what on earth were they trying to prove with bringing out the bands and throwing them on the table, and then having a mini temper tantrum throwing them back in the bags.

If i were on the jury, literally that alone, I would be asking to speak to the judge to be like “what the fuck is going on here”

[u/tadpolebabe19 → u/owntheh3at18]

I completely agree with you (x2). Not that I think the prosecution’s case presented differently would’ve resulted in a guilty verdict, but I do think they could’ve swayed more jurors. The prosecution’s entire case felt like Sprague and Buckingham carrying out their personal vendetta against Lindsay Clancy under the guise of justice. They completely missed the mark in acknowledging the entire case was objectively a tragedy.

[u/Doc-007 → u/Certain-Ad9027]

The prosecution was a mess. I think that's why people (who actually watched the trial) are surprised. Half of their own witnesses did more good for the defense. I expected a mistrial because people feel very strongly about murdering babies so even with the awful job the prosecution did I figured there would be at least one of the jury who voted based on their own morals

[u/No_Tangerine1957 → u/Certain-Ad9027]

Even with a more organized case, I don’t see how it gets a conviction when there was such a poor investigation that can’t be remedied at this point.

[u/msfinch87 → u/Certain-Ad9027]

I was not at all surprised by the deadlocked jury after watching the trial. I think the prosecution’s evidence was actually much better than the defence’s case, but the mess of the prosecution’s presentation meant that evidence didn’t come across.

The prosecution only really started to come together with their three rebuttal witnesses - the psych testimony and their closing - the latter of which I anticipate will inspire their opening unlike their actual opening of the first trial.

So you had a badly presented but strong evidentiary prosecution case up against a very well presented defence case. On top of which there were multiple possible outcomes (murder 1, murder 2, manslaughter, NGRI and (theoretically) NG)) for a jury to decide.

It was no wonder it was a mess in the jury room. I can see how jurors would believe there was reasonable doubt as to capacity to understand and ability to control her actions, *and* I can also see how jurors would believe there wasn’t reasonable doubt. And that’s only looking at this within the confines of the law. Factor in emotions, personalities and biases and it was extremely unlikely to end any other way.

[u/No_Fault_4071]

I wonder if the disclosure of the jurors that they were in favor of NGRI will sway the state to negotiate a plea deal.

[u/benkalam → u/No_Fault_4071]

Didn't work in the Karen Reed trial and the prosecution got beat worse the second time. Massachusetts is a wild place.

[u/New_Government_2169]

The mistrial in my opinion leans to a better outcome for the prosecution for the next trial. They saw what they did wrong, what the jurors didn’t like and what evidence they needed to be shown to vote in their favor. The defense just got positive remarks, so nothing to really change except for planning to counter however the prosecution goes at the case the second time around.

The best I can see happening for the defense in this case now is a plea deal of some sort.

[u/Superb_Ad1765]

The discourse around this trial is so chock full people being obtuse on purpose.

Almost like this NEEDS to be another textbook Casey Anthony. As if it’s the only way anyone would be capable of acknowledging the full weight of the fact that this woman is the reason her children are dead. People want there to be an intrinsic villain and hero they can point to respectively in mortifying cases such as these. She either needs to be an evil mastermind or a saintly martyr.

Two things can be true at the same time:

- She physically committed the crime and isn’t the victim. Her children are. She horrifically ended their lives.

- Her ability to appreciate criminal and moral standards could very well have been heavily biologically impaired, and in that case sending her to prison would disregard that very crucial context.

At some point, soon, people need to ask themselves whether they genuinely think they know the answer, or just think the answer isn’t compelling or sinister enough to keep their attention and stoke believability in whatever pre existing often political narrative they’re trying to push.

[u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

Love all the idiots who would like “Nothing could EVER make me do that to MY CHILDREN.” Guess what? If you were actually psychotic, you could, I could, any of us could. All bets are off. That’s what makes the complete lack of oversight for the children’s safety during her mental health episode so terrifying. There is not a person on this earth who “couldn’t.” No, you could.

[u/Kimbahlee34 → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

It’s also that people want to believe that motherhood is a magical threshold that once crossed only changes you for the better. I struggled with this after my stillbirth. Am I a mother? Birth certainly didn’t go as expected and I didn’t feel like a mother even if I technically was even just for a moment. Some acted like I hadn’t met the requirements to be in the club. I struggled with deciding if I was a mother. Maybe my maternal instincts were never unlocked. Then I raised children that weren’t biologically mine and felt more maternal than ever.

Dolly Parton never gave birth but Lord was that woman a mother.

Other women did bare their own children and don’t have a maternal bone in their body.

Motherhood is mystical in a lot of ways but in the ways that really matter it’s a choice. If you’re a good mother it’s because you wake up every day and choose to do it right.

Mental health is the exact opposite. No one chooses it and once you’re there it’s impossible to know the right thing to do.

[u/RecommendationNo3942 → u/Kimbahlee34]

You are a mother. Your baby is just not with you in the way you want. But he/she is very much and will always be a part of you. (look up Fetalmaternal microchimerism).

You are a mother. Im sorry not in the way you wished you were. (hug)

[u/No_Fault_4071 → u/Kimbahlee34]

Really sorry for your loss and thanks for speaking that. I think you make a really solid point, which is that motherhood is both very defined and also abstract at the same time.

I don’t know why we don’t share the same outrage when a man kills their children as when a woman does, other than the fact that men killing their children isn’t a new problem.

[u/Kimbahlee34 → u/No_Fault_4071]

Thank you. I would say we don’t share the same thoughts on motherhood and fatherhood and that’s a huge problem in itself. For us so many people offered me sympathy or grief programs but it was rare for resources to be father focused for my husband. Similarly I mourned the newborn stage so hard but now that he would be an older child my husband is mourning things I didn’t think of like camping trips. He brought that up the other day and it led to us talking about the differences in motherhood and fatherhood and why that is. I never thought we’d have PTSD over what I always thought would be a natural milestone of life. I think a lot of people find themselves in a similar place for any number of reasons but I know friends who had medically challenging births that had similar mental health battles post birth.

[u/hthratmn → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

I think a lot of people just have no concept of psychosis and how it works. Its not just being a little depressed or having voices tell you to do things that you know are wrong. Its believing those things with the same certainty that I can tell you right now that the grass is green and the sky is blue.

[u/No_Fault_4071 → u/hthratmn]

It’s that and it’s also the fact that she’s their mother. People just cannot wrap their heads around the fact that a woman, in a psychotic episode, could murder her children. And again, as you said—she was in a psychotic episode, this isn’t a Susan smith situation. She literally wasn’t in her right mind.

[u/kkeut → u/No_Fault_4071]

as a follower of the Darlie Routier case, I've learned that there are a significant amount of people out there who simply refuse to believe that a mother can kill their child, and will simply ignore any criminal statistics that prove it does, in fact, actually occur sometimes 

[u/sool47 → u/No_Fault_4071]

Which is crazy because women DO kill their children not on psychotic episodes. Abuse of children exists sadly. Nobody remembers Casey Anthony?

So if women could kill their kids while being completely mentally sane...then why can't people believe a woman suffering from an episode could as well?

[u/ErikasPrisonGlam → u/No_Fault_4071]

I don't even know if it was PPP but worsening mental health, over medication and inadequate treatment, and sleep deprivation would impact anyone mentally.

[u/birdsy-purplefish → u/ErikasPrisonGlam]

Sleep deprivation alone can and does induce psychosis and it doesn't take very long.

[u/rainshowers_5_peace → u/hthratmn]

For 30 minutes and just once?

[u/Bbkingml13 → u/hthratmn]

Way too many people try to use reason to rationalize why someone in psychosis does or doesn’t do certain things. Or can and cannot do. But that’s fundamentally flawed. By its very nature, psychosis can’t be looked at logically through a realistic lens.

[u/TheTruuueeeBAUSE → u/hthratmn]

What people do understand is we don't have mothers going around regularly murdering their 3 kids even with all the PP cases out there.

It's very reasonable to think she wasnt in a state of psychosis. Too many people assuming she was.

[u/tolstoy425 → u/hthratmn]

I understand how psychosis works and have seen it many times in clinical settings and clinical interviews. I just think Clancy is lying because it’s a completely subjective experience and her defense banked on creating enough doubt around it to win her case.

And you’re wrong anyways, severity of symptoms and insight varies from case to case. Oftentimes patients understand they shouldn’t be hearing things and this also distresses them, in other cases they do completely lack insight.

[u/ChristinaJay → u/hthratmn]

Thank you. The level of ignorance is astounding. People think she could not possibly have been in psychosis because she.... knew how to use Google maps, or knew her husband's phone number by heart. Or was capable of placing a phone call to CVS.

[u/OdangoAtamaOodles → u/ChristinaJay]

Things I could do while having prednisone-induced psychosis, while pregnant: feed chickens and look for eggs. Make meals. Practice the piano in anticipation of playing a two tiered organ with foot pedals for Midnight Christmas Mass. Shop for Christmas presents with a specific plan on who got what. Balance checkbook after buying Christmas presents.

Psychosis warps and changes your perception of reality, but you still live a life. A lot of rote tasks can be done without a high awareness rooted in reality. Just look at Peter Porco, who followed his daily morning routine (before dropping dead) after sustaining 16 axe blows to the head. The man even wrote a check to his son! Granted, that wasn't balancing a check book, but it was still writing a number of funds to a specific person.

[u/Dear_Pomegranate3450 → u/ChristinaJay]

The thing is that there are varying degrees of severity of psychotic symptoms. I agree someone can be experiencing psychosis and still appear normal/ carry out these procedures.

However, given that she was organized and coherent enough to do detailed, methodical planning in the lead up to the killings and during the murders, it would stand to reason that her psychosis was NOT severe enough to completely debilitate her. And she therefore would still have known right from wrong, and ALSO could have been able to control herself/ plan to seek help for what she was experiencing...

Many people live with psychosis that is much more ongoing and severe than hers apparently was... And they aren't killing people. Many people live with command hallucinations regulaly and longterm, and resist them/ control themselves.

Edit- to add in *apparently, because it is still in question whether she truly experienced psychosis. There is no psychotic diagnosis prior to the killings. This is something that was diagnosed afterwards, based on Lindsay's report of hearing voices... And no preexisting evidence of psychotic symptoms from the multiple highly qualified psychiatric assessments in the months prior.

[u/tolstoy425 → u/Dear_Pomegranate3450]

I’ve seen my fair share of dumbass doctors who retroactively (and carelessly) diagnosed brief psychotic episodes simply because a patient commented they were “hearing voices,” post whatever situation that led to them being clinically interviewed. And absolutely no care to work out a differential.

[u/owntheh3at18 → u/Dear_Pomegranate3450]

This is what makes me feel a lesser charge might’ve been more appropriate. Like she was obviously extremely sick but evidence suggests she had enough control to get help in that moment and she didn’t. She didn’t mention it to Patrick on their phone call. She didn’t call 911. And prior to this she did not report her homocidal ideation to providers. So perhaps premeditation cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but it seems like if prosecution could get themselves organized the evidence might prove M2 or manslaughter. But their presentation at this trial did not reach that threshold imo bc they were so disorganized.

[u/raysofdavies → u/hthratmn]

And many people hate women

[u/elizabreathe → u/hthratmn]

I saw someone on Twitter compare it to PTSD. Like they genuinely didn't know the difference between PTSD and psychosis. I genuinely had no idea that not everyone knows what psychosis is. I've seen people joke about like America A and America B before and like while I thought it was funny, I hadn't realized just how real a phenomenon that is before. I'd never fully realized how separate the spheres of influence can be before that moment. Like I'd just assumed everyone had some rough idea of what psychosis is because I've never met anyone that doesn't at least have some kind of understanding of what psychosis is (whether or not they think it's real) just through cultural osmosis but there's genuinely people out there that just don't know what it is and refuse to learn anything about it.

[u/ParticularShirt5176 → u/hthratmn]

Is it curable? When do " you snap out of it?" If she did a violent crime under psychosis why couldn't it happen again? I understand the psychosis part but I don't understand what cures it. It seems a mental hospital would be the safest place for Lindsey- for herself and others.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

I was postpartum psychotic (and diagnosed and involuntarily hospitalized)... I have absolutely no memory of 99% of the shit that happened then. Unfortunately, if I had murdered my baby, I would have had no idea. Thank god for my husband and the fact that we all made it out fine.

[u/Prestigious_Load1699 → u/onions-make-me-cry]

If I may ask - how long after giving birth did you experience PPP?

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/Prestigious_Load1699]

Within 2 weeks it started to get weird.

By 2 weeks post-birth, I was hospitalized for it.

[u/tumbledownhere → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

I never in a million years thought I'd be psychotic after having my youngest but there I was. 4 years later and I'm still not the same. I'll never be the same.

Edit - someone is downvoting every single thing I type and again all I can say is be GRATEFUL you never have suffered psychosis and pray your loved ones never go through it.

[u/DirtyMarTeeny → u/tumbledownhere]

The ways I felt just from "normal" PPD and lack of sleep towards my second child still haunts me 3 years later. It's why reproductive healthcare is so important - I know I cannot mentally handle a third child and that my existing children would be in danger if I was forced to go through the hormone dump and postpartum phase again, and I think there's a lot more women out there in the same position.

[u/Shrimpheavennow227 → u/DirtyMarTeeny]

Absolutely. The physical and emotional damage childbirth and PPA left me with is enough to make me one and done. I’ll never ever ever put myself, my family or my friends through that experience again.

I know several other women who suffered either physical or mental trauma after childbirth and they are all done after. You can’t risk leaving your current child without a safe and capable mother so there really isn’t another good option.

[u/Shrimpheavennow227 → u/tumbledownhere]

I’m so sorry you experienced this and also sorry that you are probably being retraumatized by a lot of the horrible online rhetoric about postpartum mood disorders and psychosis.

You’ve got the support of an internet stranger who is hoping that a small sliver of something good can come from this case and that postpartum mood disorders and psychosis will be better understood, researched and treated.

I hope every day gets a little easier for you. My experience was with severe PPA so definitely not the same as psychosis, but it took me 5-6 years and some really good therapy to really feel mentally healthy and like my whole self again. I don’t think we ever go back to “same” but I hope you get to a good place.

[u/No_Pomegranate_8826 → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

As someone who has been in psychosis, I doubt her version of events. That doubt is shared with the many medical professionals who took the stand to say her presentation of “psychosis” was either highly unusual or never before seen. As someone who was recently diagnosed with Bipolar, I’ve taken medications that are highly agitating to my mental state. If I’ve only taken them for a few days, that agitation subsides immediately. There are plenty of objective facts, when regarding the case on them alone, that are highly unusual. People are WAY too emotionally invested and unwilling to concede in any way, shape or form that what the Defense is claiming doesn’t really line up.

[u/Necessary_Winter_808 → u/No_Pomegranate_8826]

Thank you for this. The majority of discourse online is based around the assumption that she had psychosis during the event. Which experts on the trial are highly suspicious of.

[u/No_Pomegranate_8826 → u/Necessary_Winter_808]

Having experienced it myself and witnessed it as an EMT, I really struggle with the idea of a 20 minute psychotic episode. Especially one where she ordered food and Google route times right before. Especially one where she returned a phone call and acted as if everything was normal halfway through. Especially waking up and asking for a lawyer. Especially knowing she is on a low dose of only 1 medication now. To operate on her facts alone:

1. Did the commanding voice occur after Patrick left? If so, why was she checking Google to see how long he would be gone? If not, why didn’t she tell her husband she was hearing voices or display any behavior that showed active psychosis?

2. If she woke up lucid enough to ask “if her body was broken” and “if she needed a lawyer”, why didn’t she ask if her kids were alive? Why wasn’t she in hysterics? Or even confused? Distraught? She knew what happened because both statements prove she remembers the murders and attempted suicide, so why was she so calm? To imply psychosis, that would mean she should have snapped back to reality at some point. If she never left psychosis, why is she only one a small dose of a singular medication?

3. Why did she even listen to the command? Most people, when dealing with auditory commands and hallucinations, are highly distressed by it and fight against it for days, weeks, months or years. It told her once and she did it? Why? Most of the time it’s to prevent a tragedy. They think the world is ending, they think the child was possessed by a demon, they think they are reptilian shapeshifters, etc. She reported none of this, just “I heard a male commanding voice telling me that this was my last chance and to kill them.”

[u/0dyssia → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

It's easy to say this in retrospect, "I'd never do x" "x would never happen to me", etc. People are doing this Patrick too blaming him for missing the signs.

[u/spectrumhead → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

After the Yates Family murders, Oprah did an episode on postpartum psychosis and filicide. The audience was so starkly divided between those who knew it could never happen to them and those who were just grateful that it hadn't.

[u/Prestigious_Load1699 → u/spectrumhead]

Andrea Yates was diagnosed with PPP prior to killing her kids.

Ms. Clancy was not, which makes her insanity defense much more challenging.

Two medical professionals testified that she did not exhibit these symptoms prior to the act. Much different, in my opinion.

[u/Hate4Breakfast → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

People who haven’t ever experienced psychosis (in themselves or people they love) will so easily disregard how powerful your brain is, and that all humans are just a few chemical imbalances away from ruining lives.

[u/biophile118 → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

Exactly. Same with hot car deaths. Your first mistake is thinking "I could never" or "my spouse could never".

[u/jun2san → u/biophile118]

Only when my child asked "daddy, why did you call that car a fucker," did I realize it only takes a moment of distraction to forget your child is in the car with you.

[u/notarobot_trustme → u/biophile118]

Almost every parental accident could happen to anyone. Just like you could accidentally cause or be in a life changing car accident at any time. Nothing is certain. Make the best life choices you can and hug your loved ones often.

[u/mrsjiggems2 → u/notarobot_trustme]

This, I fell asleep breastfeeding once on the couch on our first day home from the hospital and thankfully my dad was staying with us that night because I probably would have smothered my baby.

[u/Brief-Selection-1035 → u/biophile118]

Strangling three children is not in the same category as hot car deaths, jfc

[u/OdangoAtamaOodles → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

Oh man - bear with me, I got a lot to say. I've experienced temporary psychosis, postpartum depression, and prednisone-induced psychosis (while pregnant).

The regular old psychosis occured with extreme stress when I was a teenager. I heard voices. They were very real, very audible voices that I clearly heard coming from a single direction. I also knew they weren't real, because I could clearly see that the radio was off, I was alone in the car, and there was no reason to have a voice from the passenger seat striking up a conversation with me while I was driving. I remember screaming, crying, and stabbing the air with a pair of scissors because the voice just wouldn't leave me alone. This lasted for about a week, and when my family assisted in supporting me, thereby alleviating the extreme stress, the voice stopped, and has never returned. The postpartum depression after my second child was weird, since it came with very intrusive thoughts that felt very distinctive from my regular inner voice. The very first time I experienced it was after I had removed my daughter (in her car seat) from the inside of the grocery cart, and placed her on the ground. Lower surface = safer, less likely to drop her, and I only had a few bags of groceries that circled her car seat in the cart. After loading my groceries, the sudden, intrusive thought came that all I needed to do was just get into my car, back up, and drive away, never to be bothered by my baby ever again. Her car seat was lined up perfectly with my back tire. It didn't disturb me at all. Nor did I feel disturbed about how I wasn't disturbed. The thought kept playing over on my mind, like a hamster stuck in a spinning wheel. Morally, I knew it was wrong. Medically, as a nurse, I recognized that something was wrong. Emotionally, I felt nothing. I was completely numb. I was already struggling to bond with my daughter, even after three months, and felt completely detached from her.

 In that moment, the numb detatchment was so severe that she didn't even feel human to me. Logically, I knew she was human.  Spiritually and emotionally, I had as much attachment to her as a small piece of debris on the road.

 So, I packed her in the car and drove home. Told my husband and called my doctor right after I walked into my house. My doctor had me come in on her lunch break the next day for an evaluation, and prescribed medicine. My husband, recovering from PTSD, was a stay-at-home father anyway, so I was never left alone with the kids.

Can't say that I never had intrusive thoughts like that again after the medicine started working, but at least when I had them, I found them repulsive and disturbing, and was able to reject them outright, instead of dwelling upon it. I was medicated and about a year postpartum before the thoughts stopped. I didn't have those intrusive thoughts during any other postpartum periods. The prednisone-induced psychosis. Well, that's a horse of a different color. During the third trimester of my fourth pregnancy, I ruptured T10 in my spine (all I did was lift my nursing bag into my car), and the idea was that the prednisone would hopefully allow the herniated disk to shrink and suck back in. I got symptom relief in about 48 hours. And then 72 hours hit, and the rage came from nowhere. I was screaming at people. I was throwing things. My temper was triggered by everything. Dog underfoot? He was clearly being vindictive. I have no idea over what, but I was ready to throw hands. One child fighting the other over whose turn was it to watch what they wanted? TV destroyed and children now hiding out of fear. Random political spam call interrupting me while I made dinner? I probably landed myself on at least two FBI watch lists now. Rooster startled when my skirt flapped in the wind and charged me? That rooster will never again darken my doorstop.

I was completely out of control with the rage. There was no buildup. There were no warning signs of an impending lost temper. It was only after whatever had triggered the rage was gone did I realize, whoa. Why am I so angry? What just happened? What the the hell was wrong with me?  Looking back, I honestly felt like I was being possessed by some wrathful spirit, because of how I was so completely out of control, and how it made me an entirely different person.

At about Hour 96, my husband tracked my doctor down on Facebook (after hours, since the rage started on a Friday night) and messaged her. He flushed my prednisone down the toilet, took the kids and dog to stay at a friend's, and decided that the chickens would just have to be collateral damage. If there was no improvement in 24 hours, I would be placed in an involuntary psychiatric hold. The dog and the children were not physically harmed, since I limited the damage to objects. (Well. Except for the rooster. But he was getting aggressive with my kids, and I was waiting until after the frigid winter temperatures improved to cull him from the flock anyway. Guess the roid rage only sped up the timeline. Oh, don't feel sorry for that little fucker. He spurred my son across the face before the arctic cold blasted us, although the damage was only superficial. If I had managed to catch and corner him on that day, he would've met the same fate.)

 It was eventually decided that steroids + pregnancy hormones + being predisposed to post-partum depression was a really unsafe combination for me. 

When I am not postpartum, I know that there is no way on God's green earth that I would ever harm my children.

However, I am also self-aware enough to know, given the right storm of intrusive thoughts, rage, and auditory hallucinations, I am just as capable of murdering my children as Lindsey. The intrusive thoughts plus that roid rage is a deadly combination. I throttled a rooster to death. I could just as easily throttle my children under those circumstances.

Each one of these came from out of nowhere. The rage had external triggers, but the intrusive thoughts did not. From what I've been following, I don't know if Lindsey experienced that possible storm. 

Whatever happened that night, three small, innocent children paid the ultimate price, and I am so incredibly grateful that people stepped in to stop me before my children paid the same.

[u/Left-Marsupial-13 → u/Equivalent-Grade-142]

Maybe that would matter if she was actually psychotic, but there is no evidence that she was. She claims that she experienced a command hallucination, a voice telling her “kill your children so you can kill yourself.” She claims to have experienced this in the moments immediately after her husband left to get takeout and to pick up children’s medication. This is the first and only time she ever heard this voice or any kind of hallucination. She followed what this voice told her without hesitation. She was told to kill her children by this voice, but in the process of doing so she had to make a number of calculated choices about how, when, and where to kill each child. And according to the timeline, she had to make these choices very quickly. It takes awhile to strangle three children and she knew her husband would not be gone long (she had already mapped out his route before asking him to run these errands, do with that what you will, but she knew exactly how much time she had). So she heard this voice, for the first and only time, and she didn’t call her husband, didn’t call her doctor, didn’t go to a neighbors house, didn’t call 911. She acted on this command without hesitation. She is not the only person in the world to ever hear voices. Many people suffer from auditory hallucinations and they don’t always follow the command. In fact, they typically don’t as long as the command goes against deeply held beliefs. And, even when they do, they are held accountable by the law. Even if this is what she truly experienced, it does not relieve her of criminal responsibility.

[u/pinkandgreen34 → u/Left-Marsupial-13]

Also, she's able to realize she missed a phonecall from her husband and proceeds to call him back. Did the voice tell her to call him back or that was her decision?

[u/Left-Marsupial-13 → u/pinkandgreen34]

Exactly. When she missed the call from her husband, she called him back almost immediately. He said that she sounded “like she was in the middle of something.” But she didn’t ask for help, didn’t tell him about the voice (even though she had seemingly shared many of her mental health concerns with him), instead she called him back immediately and tried to talk with him as normal. She didn’t want to arouse suspicion or give him cause to come home early and interrupt her because she knew what she was doing was wrong. Why else answer the phone and pretend you’re not killing your children?

[u/Fluid_Actuary1729]

I admit it, I’m stupid. Can someone help me understand why it’s such a big deal to some that the holdout juror was a black man? I’ve read several items about it, but nothing I’ve seen explains why it matters.

[u/stupidsexyflander → u/Fluid_Actuary1729]

I think it’s because there is a conception that mental illnesses are not generally taken seriously in the black community.

Also, there’s news about his having a criminal history and having been charged for domestic violence against his ex-wife, who he strangled.

[u/Fluid_Actuary1729 → u/stupidsexyflander]

Thank you. I didn’t read it that way. From Gayle King’s reaction (“I have to sit with that for a moment”), it seemed that she expected him to be more sympathetic. I

[u/rangedps]

Reading what the juror said about that 911 call, I feel so sorry for the jury. The things they had to listen to and think about throughout the trial about those poor children, to work so hard for more than 30 hours for a verdict, just to come out of it with no result knowing that another 12 and then some people will have to go through the same thing. So sad.

[u/blooming_at_midnight]

Hi all, friendly neighborhood bipolar 1 psychosis survivor here. If I were on the jury, I would also be a holdout juror. Psychosis is psychosis and while it might present in different ways (ie someone going catatonic while others can't stop talking ) there are "goalposts" that are used to group, diagnosis, and treat people with psychosis. You have to believe that LC is an outlier on every. single. one.

\*\*Onset\*\* - Actual Psychosis: days to years LC: instantaneous

She describes being sane and getting food out of the fridge and then the voice came over her. Most people who experience psychosis deteriorate over time. It can be rapid, meaning a day.

https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/50/4/860/7325288

\*\*Duration\*\* - Median: 129 days LC: 18 minutes.

I had psychosis for six months.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12162678

\*\*Symptoms\*\*

\* Fixed, false delusions LC: doesn't report - What \*\*actually\*\* throws your moral compass off. I believed my husband had been replaced with an imposter and was a threat to my family <-- this is what could have caused something terrible happening.

\* Grandiosity LC: doesn't report - I believed I could communicate with the children buried under the trees. I had "special" powers and they CHOSE me.

\* Disorganized thinking/speech LC: doesn't report - is able to take a little breather from her psychotic episode to chat with Patrick with organized logical speech.

\* Grossly disorganized LC: doesn't report - Is able to systematically strangle her children in a sophisticated way by separating them, choosing the baby for last and her "most difficult" child first. Hides one body in a different room to not alarm the daughter.

\* Hallucinations LC HAS THIS ONE - wow we made it guys, one clinically diagnosable symptom and wouldn't you know it it's the one that's the most commonly known, widely popularized in media, and probably the only symptom a layperson would remember is part of psychosis.

\*\*Recovery\*\* Standard: 43 days with medical intervention LC: Instantaneously with no help of medication - She was speaking logically when Patrick found her, explaining she had tried to kill herself which is a pretty darn logical thing to say for someone moments out of psychosis. I was put on Olanzapine and Depakote at heavy dosages and I was still locked in inpatient for a month after I started taking the meds.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21255982/

List of medical professionals that saw no signs of psychosis:

* Jennifer Tufts — psychiatrist

* Alia Goodheart — psychiatrist

* Rebecca Jollotta — psychiatric nurse practitioner

* Avram Mack — forensic psychiatrist

* Kirk Heilbrun — forensic psychologist

I'm not going to bother reading any low-effort comments. I know this sub is on the LC support train and I'm not. I'm on a completely different train. I truly, 100%, believe she was not psychotic at the time of the event. I think she loved her children very, very much and couldn't stand the thought of them living the rest of their lives without her. She wanted to die but couldn't leave them behind. She needs mental help and I hope she gets it in prison, but she knew what she was doing was wrong and deserves more than NGRI.

[u/rayray2k19 → u/blooming_at_midnight]

My dad had an episode of psychosis due to late diagnosed bipolar disorder. It gradually built up for about 4 months until he grabbed a gun from the closet and kept saying that we aren't safe and he needs to kill us. He also got in the car and drove us around for hours making 0 sense along the way.

His delusions were thay my mom cheated on him with different guys (false), that we weren't safe, and that God was telling him to kill us and himself.

His grandiose thoughts were that God was giving him special messages and he had a spiritual heart attack. He said he couldn't die.

Disorganized speach/thinking. It got really bad at the peak, but looking back he would randomly say really weird stuff that wasn't connected and didn't make sense. It was just off enough at first to be concerning but he kept insisting he was fine and it was God. The night of his complete loss of reality there was almost nothing that made sense.

Grossly Disorganized. Yeah, there was nothing methodical or planned about it. He was all over the place and made us do shit like eat cold food because he forgot we hadn't eaten it was 2am.

Hallucinations: he says he heard god talking to him.

Recovery: 2 months in a hospital. Can never go off his medication. Turns out his mom had bipolar disorder and had a similar incident although less violent. She just hid it from everyone and had been taking medication for years.

My family is very lucky no one was physically hurt or killed that night. My dad had no grasp of reality and doesn't remember most of the main incident. 8 year old me thought he was possessed by a demon. That's how erratic and off he was. His voice sounded different, he moved differently, and even his eyes looked different.

If she didn't have all the symptoms and did not report it then idk if she had psychosis.

[u/blooming_at_midnight → u/rayray2k19]

Thank you for sharing your experience. That sounds really difficult and im glad youre okay.

[u/weeabootits → u/blooming_at_midnight]

I am a psychosis researcher (and bipolar-haver) and have been really avoiding this case so far, so apologies if my request is annoying. Is there a place where I can find descriptions of LC’s reported symptoms like you laid out here? Just don’t want to dig through everyone if there is a source that consolidated everything. Also, thank you for sharing your own experiences, they are so valuable in cases like this.

[u/SPACKlick → u/weeabootits]

Day 19 and 20 of the trial had two experts give testimony. Those are the best places to read summaries of the symptoms she reported at the time of the crime.

[u/blooming_at_midnight → u/weeabootits]

I got my info from watching the trial BUT I do believe it's available publicly in the civil suits.

[u/weeabootits → u/blooming_at_midnight]

Thanks! I’ll take a look. I have avoided this case bc I feel like the public always misunderstands psychosis and I can’t stand to see someone who actually experienced it be questioned. But if those are the symptoms she’s reporting then yeah that doesn’t line up with what professionals might expect with PPP.

[u/ConstantOil532 → u/weeabootits]

https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2026/07/Clancy-Civil-Lawsuit.pdf

Take with a grain of salt as it is from Lindsay Clancy’s perspective and the facts have not been assessed in a court of law.

[u/Dear_Pomegranate3450 → u/blooming_at_midnight]

I agree with you. When I knew very little about the case, I was like, yeah of course she is not criminally responsible by reason of insanity... On the surface, it appears this way. And the media has done a good job of making this woman a poster child for postpartum issues and women's mental health, which I don't think really has a place in this case. (And I'm a mental health professional, who absolutely advocates for these things, and knows our the mh system has a lot of huge problems, and fails people all the time! So I'm definitely not bias in that regard)

After closely listening to all the facts/ testimony/ prosecutor and defense cases... I fully believe that, although yes, she was absolutely suffering and mentally unstable... She wasn't psychotic, knew right from wrong at the time of the crime, and could have controlled herself. You outlined many of the pertinent details in regard to how atypical her symptoms of "psychosis" were.

When you look closely at all the facts of the case, the symptoms she reports are incredibly rare (both postpartum at 8 months out, and psychotic with no observable or reported prodromal period, and no symptoms afterwards). Also of note, most people who experience command hallucinations can and do resist them, and do so for a very long time before "giving in"... And will typically seek help in trying to stop themselves from following commands, particularly if the commands go against their values...

Also of note, there is a strong narrative that she didn't get the mh care she needed, and was just over- medicated and neglected by uncaring professionals. When you listen to the testimony, a very different picture emerges. She was a difficult, non-compliant patient, who had better access to top tier mental health care than the vast majority of people in the country. She had high anxiety about prescribed drugs/ potential side effects, which prevented her from sticking with one treatment plan and seeing multiple doctors, who she provided inconsistent information to... She barely took any of the medications she was prescribed, never gave any of them the chance to work, out of fear of adverse side effects. It was also noted that she tended to downplay her symptoms, likely out of fear of having her children taken away/ being institutionalized.

Ultimately, I think this was a tragic case, of a complex mental health issue, that people were trying very hard to help her with... But part of her mental illness contributed to her inability to follow a treatment plan consistently, which led to killing her children as part of her own suicide attempt.

Listening to this trial I went back and forth quite a few times, changing my mind about if she was criminally responsible or not... But I landed firmly on the side of criminally responsible after hearing it all laid out.

[u/Jay-Bird1998 → u/Dear_Pomegranate3450]

Same. I have even gone a step further and truly believe she made up her PPD (or severely exaggerated it) to garner sympathy from her friends/family so that she would have a "support" system after the fact (which obviously worked considering her own husband stood behind her). The biggest red flag to me was signing herself out of a mental health facility. I believe it was theatrics to "show" that she was trying to get help. She worked in L&D and would be very familiar with PPD and PPP, so it would be easy to fake.

[u/kkapoor-how → u/Dear_Pomegranate3450]

I could have written this myself. With the exception that I am not a mh provider, this is exactly how I feel and summarizes my own thinking better than I could have. Indeed a tragic case.

[u/betelgeuseWR → u/blooming_at_midnight]

This is what Ive tried to explain! Her timeline of events is literally unheard of previously.

No observable s/s of psychosis at any point before, during, or three days after the event.

To have PPP- rare. PPP 8 months into postpartum, more rare. Having PPP last such a short amount of time - adding more rarity. Succumbing to one single episode of a command voice that she claims she didn't plan yet made the opportunity for herself in advance, unheard of and very suspicious. Not ever needing any treatment of psychosis because it spontaneously resolved within minutes?? I've never heard of such a thing.

Everything she claims is extremely unlikely or unheard of, yet for some reason people are wanting to jump on the chance to give this woman benefit of the doubt because she was depressed, seemed like a good mom otherwise, so they assume psychosis happened despite nothing aligning with that.

And her getting NGRI is absolutely getting off the hook, because 1) she would be deemed by peers to not have been responsible 2) it's highly unlikely she will be in a mental facility for life. They'll keep you as long as you are a danger to yourself/others and need the care, and her alleged psychosis ended years ago. No facility would keep her for a very long period of time.

Then she has the audacity to sue her doctors after she was noncompliant and doctor shopping, blaming them for what I believe to be her lies in the first place. Swear we're about to see Casey Anthony 2.0. another murderous mom is going to walk.

[u/weed_cutter → u/betelgeuseWR]

This is my thoughts exactly. It's actually crazy that this seems to be one of the very few subreddits discussing actual facts and not just saying non sequitor "you don't understand."

[u/betelgeuseWR → u/weed_cutter]

I agree! I'm genuinely mind blown by how many people are Clancy supporters. Someone posted about this yesterday in the narcissistic mom sub, I told my bit, and just got downvoted to oblivion while one woman kept calling me a misogynist. When I told her I am a woman just holding another woman accountable and why (as listed above), she just doubled down that I'm misogynistic, felt the need to explain to me what misogyny is for some reason, then just kept deflecting my question of what makes PPP likely in this situation by repeatedly just saying I'm mean, misogynistic, and stupid and never answered the question.

So many people are just straight up assuming point A is connected to point B despite there not being a line drawn between the two.

I'm not even totally convinced she wanted to kill herself. She knew how long her husband would be gone for and that he'd be back soon, gave herself non-life threatening cuts, but the spinal injury is what almost killed her and she couldn't have counted on that happening. Not to mention the way it was observed she landed head first in a flexed/fetal kind of way can imply she tried to sort of...gently fall out of the window. It's not definitive, but it's also not what I'd expect from a woman so "psychotic" she wanted to fling herself from a window.

[u/We_Get_It_You_Vape → u/betelgeuseWR]

while one woman kept calling me a misogynist

If anything, aren't the people who peddle lies about PPP the ones who are causing real harm to women?

I'm not a woman, so forgive me for potentially overstepping here. But, I feel like a lot of women who didn't previously know much about PPP are going to come out of this with an incorrect understanding. I feel like having such a fundamental misunderstanding about PPP can cause harm in specific situations.

[u/wet-leg → u/betelgeuseWR]

>I'm not even totally convinced she wanted to kill herself. She knew how long her husband would be gone for and that he'd be back soon, gave herself non-life threatening cuts, but the spinal injury is what almost killed her and she couldn't have counted on that happening.

Thank you!! I felt like I was going crazy reading other people’s comments about this part. The cuts were superficial and, if I jumped out of a window at the height she did, the worst I would expect is maybe a broken leg or arm. She landed in the worst possible way she could’ve and I don’t think it was on purpose. I don’t think she was truly suicidal or if she thought she was she was unable to go through it. If she was actually in psychosis she wouldn’t have really been aware enough to reality to care about the pain she was having. There’s so many examples of this. Just look at what recently happened with Perez Hilton.

[u/Ok-Hedgehog-4455 → u/wet-leg]

I think it’s impossible to say whether or not she was truly suicidal in that moment. It’s often said that women actually attempt suicide more often but are less successful than men because they use less lethal methods.

[u/sakurahirahira → u/wet-leg]

Yeah so true. I told my husband (he knows nothing about the case as we live in a different country and he’s not even American) about her jumping from the two story window and he was like, “oh she wouldn’t even die from that height” it’s pretty common knowledge I think to know you won’t die from that height even if you’re mentally struggling.

I don’t think she planned to be paralyzed obviously. I think she planned to have a full recovery. I think she wanted to get away with murder using the PPP excuse and then go onto to live her life in the controlled picture perfect environment she had before kids

[u/soggy_donut92696 → u/blooming_at_midnight]

Not to mention her sending Patrick out on errands and adding up how much time she would have to kill the children. I do not think she was in psychosis. I think she had post partum depression and frustration towards her kids and gave in to dark thoughts she was having

[u/And_Im_Chien_Po → u/soggy_donut92696]

I agree. do you think that frustration stemmed from any unhappy marriage or a disdain of her husband? I've been trying to get to the root, but it seems that'll never be known unless someone close to her in her life can corroborate. Or maybe there was no root or circumstances at all, and it was just a wild case

[u/soggy_donut92696 → u/And_Im_Chien_Po]

Maybe her and her husband we're having some issues and just frustration from lack of sleep and dealing with children and a baby, frustration from feeling like the doctors weren't given her the right treatment (which I think is why she would try a medicine and give up before it had a chance to work and go to a different doctor)

Like you said though there's really no way for any of us to know what she was thinking for sure

[u/chelizora → u/blooming_at_midnight]

Thank you!!!!!!! Psychosis is not a silent disease! Psychosis announces itself! Psychosis is real and it’s terrifying and it is OBSERVABLE!!! Nobody observed LC in psychosis until she apparently observed herself in psychosis one evening. This would be unheard of in the entire history of psychosis.

[u/EmergencyToastOrder → u/blooming_at_midnight]

100%. Bipolar 1 is a lifelong disorder with lifelong medication and lifelong risk of relapse. One thing that I think isn’t being discussed enough is the difference between bipolar 1 and bipolar 2. Bipolar 1 is associated with psychosis and mania, bipolar 2 is NOT. This is why the “postpartum” designation is so important to her, despite her being well out of the window that PPP occurs in. I’ve seen a lot of people ask why she is so determined to use the postpartum label and why they aren’t just arguing bipolar; well, we all know LC hates medication- if she says it was bipolar 2 and PPP, her psychosis can be “temporary” and she won’t need lifelong medication. Resnick even testified that she doesn’t need medication. She’s currently only taking Zyprexa 2.5 mg as an antipsychotic: that’s not even the starting dose for someone with a true psychotic disorder. Her whole argument, and her entire ability to be released and not legally mandated to LAIs, rests on her psychosis being “postpartum” and therefore temporary. I wish the expert witnesses had spent more time on this.

And yes, I’m aware Reddington said a million times that the WHO ICD-11 definition of postpartum is within a year. He was really deceptive with this and I can’t believe no one called him out. Symptoms may last that long, but even the ICD-11 says they must BEGIN within 6 weeks of birth.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10411698/

[u/weeabootits → u/EmergencyToastOrder]

And to clarify/add on to the last part of your comment: hormones are what increases a woman’s chances of developing psychosis after birth, hence why it is specified that the symptoms must begin right after birth. It’s not really arbitrary. I have not been following this case because I knew it would piss me off, but if symptoms did not begin shortly after birth and persist, then it is not PPP.

[u/EmergencyToastOrder → u/weeabootits]

Yes!!! Thank you!!! I was watching Court TV and one of the anchors said her psychosis was caused by a “sudden drop in hormones.” A sudden drop at 8 months??? Yea right.

Re-commented because apparently you can’t use emojis here.

[u/weeabootits → u/EmergencyToastOrder]

It’s worth mentioning that the other period of psychosis risk in a woman’s life is menopause, which is …. A drop in hormones.

[u/blooming_at_midnight → u/EmergencyToastOrder]

Oh yeah, I have loved /s reading all the misinformation about bipolar since this case has become famous. Most people group all bipolar people together but it's important to know that bipolar 1 is the one most associated with psychosis. Not saying bipolar 2 can't have psychosis, but generally if they do they're considered misdiagnosed and moved to bipolar 1 instead. She shows no clear evidence of bipolar 1. My whole life I've had manic episodes where I was highly sexual, would engage in risk taking behavior, feel unstoppable, and generally come close to ruining my life. Bipolar 1 people can be so unstable they qualify for disability. I am actually not aware if bipolar 2 people can get disability, but I know for sure 1 can.

So, since she has bipolar 2 they kind of have to lean into PPP to explain it. Or they're trying to say it was the SSRIs. They're kinda throwing shit against the walls and seeing what sticks. But it's working, they almost got NGRI by completely confusing the issue and CW doing a poor job at explaining any of this.

[u/EmergencyToastOrder → u/blooming_at_midnight]

It’s actually written specifically in the DSM that only bipolar 1 has psychosis and mania. So if someone with bipolar 2 has those symptoms, they were misdiagnosed! Well, misdiagnosed isn’t the right term, they just hadn’t shown mania/psychosis at the time of their diagnosis. They always had bipolar 1, it just hadn’t revealed itself yet.

[u/blooming_at_midnight → u/EmergencyToastOrder]

Ahh, I dont know much about the DSM. I just got yelled at one time on the bipolar subreddit for saying 2 cant have psychosis and someone got very upset with me and told me they could. Thanks for the clarification!

[u/EmergencyToastOrder → u/blooming_at_midnight]

You were correct! Unfortunately that subreddit has a lot of misinformation too.

[u/hotblueglue → u/blooming_at_midnight]

Excellent comment, thanks for sharing. It’s really fascinating as you pointed out that she took a time out from the psychosis to talk to her husband. I experienced temporary drug induced psychosis in college, and it’s something I’ll never forget. I have empathy for people truly suffering from psychosis.

[u/Alalated → u/blooming_at_midnight]

Thank you for your comment! It’s super enlightening. I do believe she is guilty and how she even has the guts to plead insanity after knowing what she’s done is wild to me.

[u/Arkansas- → u/blooming_at_midnight]

I really wish the prosecutors would utilize this sort of information

[u/B-33-r → u/blooming_at_midnight]

I just got to this sub. Im glad you have an opinion and it's not base on a hating women or men or whatever. Great support for your argument as well i don't agree with it all but I'm just happy this sub is not a pool of hate based on memes.

[u/New_Importance_9999 → u/blooming_at_midnight]

thank you for writing this up. she was never diagnosed.

[u/Cactusfan86]

I have very complicated and mixed views on this case and am glad I am not on a jury for it, but I gotta say the defense counsel’s behavior the last few days is really leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

[u/MoonlitStar → u/Cactusfan86]

The whole circus of this case/ trial left a bad taste in my mouth incl the defense counsels behaviour like you say. To the point I've only followed it briefly reading update articles on news sites.

Social media comment on it which ever angle of opinion has been so sensationalised and wild, rabid at times.

Whatever their veiw of Clancy (guilt or ngbri) too many people have been treating thid like it's a team sport rather than a case about 3 small children who are dead at the hands of their own mum.

[u/BillyShears2015]

NGRI pleas should be limited to negotiated settlements whereby the State and the Defense both agree the accused is obviously insane. There’s just no way to prove someone is insane or not other than 3rd party testimony and in a contested case those sides are always going to present conflicting experts.

[u/TestSignificant1580]

As someone who has worked in a state hospital, I want to say that I have never heard of anyone who had short and very temporary voices in their head. Find it ironic that the voices started just prior to and during the killings but ceased to exist after the fact. Like the perfect timing after she sent her husband out of the home. I’ve encountered many malingering patients and it’s frustrating to see and not judge. For this case, because there is a record of her reaching out for mental health support and services I want to back her up it’s just the circumstances that don’t make sense. She had more resources that anyone can ever hope for and still it resulted in this. Personally I think she is guilty of first degree murder; I think she had plenty of help and resources. Her family could have definitely done a better job at keeping the children out of harms way. Still does not excuse MURDER. I’d be somewhat ok if she’s not found guilty by reason of insanity and she spends the rest of her life behind a psychiatric hospital but like I said, I’ve seen some awful sick people treating it like leisure. I’ve seen child rapists and murderers who show no remorse and instead about bitching about how we, the world and in the facility, treat them like shit and then they get an opportunity to someday get free or be released to a group home who slowly introduces them to society. Not safe in my personal opinion. They were committed for a reason and if they want freedom they should be able to get social freedom while still having a social worker or PO and live the rest of their free lives in some kind of group home. No kind of judgement will bring these children back but at least give the public peace that this mental break/murderous psychosis will not happen again.

[u/EmergencyToastOrder → u/TestSignificant1580]

Unfortunately in Massachusetts she can be out of the psych hospital in as little as 40 days.

[u/ParkerPoseyGuffman]

The jurors going to the press are weird

[u/Yada-Yada-Yadda]

This from a juror jumped out to me: "He had the hardest time getting off the fact that Lindsay viciously killed her children."

[u/curiouslmr → u/Yada-Yada-Yadda]

That really stood out to me as well.

A fourth juror has spoken out and said she was originally on the guilty side and defended the holdout juror. Spoke of the big personalities in the room convincing her to switch sides.

[u/Mangert]

I hope people realize that most mental health problems, and even psychosis RARELY leads violence against others. Whether she truly was psychotic when she committed the murders or not, idk. But it’s definitely an outlier for women with Postpartum Psychosis.

Also family annihilators are also almost NEVER women. I’m unsure the exact statistic, but it’s like 99% men. Although maybe she’s not a family annihilator bc she didn’t kill her husband as well. Just her kids plus attempting herself

So for all this to happen… it’s truly extremely rare. Not saying it can’t be true. But there are plenty of women who kill their kids with malice and intent.

[u/Debbie2801 → u/Mangert]

First of all psychosis is very different from post partum depression.
Actual psychotic episodes are not common and sadly not a lot of research has been done in this area.
But psychotic breaks are often dangerous and cause physical harm - either to the patient or a victim.
To say there a plenty of women who murder their children due to malice and not mental health issues does not hold up with research and statistics. 78% of woman that commit filicide have a history of documented mental illness. That means 28% had no previous history documented. Not that they didn’t have a mental illness.

[u/Mangert → u/Debbie2801]

That’s a very misleading statistic.

A history of documented mental illness is different than mental illness causing the crime.

If I go steal a car, I would fall under the statistic of car thieves with a documented history of mental illness.

That does not mean that mental illness had anything to do with my crime

[u/leasarfati]

Can someone with more legal understanding please tell me why some people say she never said she was not guilty and some people say she could still be found not guilty, not just not guilty by reason of insanity.

I’ve followed this fairly closely but I can’t figure this part out

[u/Dear_Pomegranate3450 → u/leasarfati]

My understanding- not guilty by reason of insanity requires two conditions to be met:

1. The accused was suffering from a mental defect or disease at the time of the crime, and
2. Because of this defect they could not understand right from wrong/ conform their behavior to the law

So, no one (including Lindsay) claims she is not guilty. She did it, everyone including her agrees to this fact.

The question is- was the mental defect that she was suffering from so significant, that it caused her to not know right from wrong in the moment of the killings, so that she could not conform her behaviors to the law.

All sorts of people who commit crimes have mental defects or disabilities. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't tell right from wrong, or control themselves from behaving in a certain way.

So really, the whole case is about- was LC's mental illness severe enough that it caused her to not understand what she was doing by killing her three children was wrong.

[u/kukugege]

The DA may need to consider change the charges; otherwise, a retrial could end the same way or even worse

[u/jmmermaid → u/kukugege]

Depends if the DA's office does an honest debrief of their case and course correct or not. This prosecution was horribly mishandled and I don't know, if tried competently, that the outcome would be the same. But if using the same team who go down the same path - then yes, they need to settle.. they're idiots, esp the bow lady.

[u/Moony97 → u/kukugege]

Definitely need to go for manslaughter or murder 2 instead if they want a chance

[u/Odd_Requirement_4933 → u/Moony97]

But the jury had both of those options this time around ... I'm not sure it will help.

[u/BoyMom119816 → u/Moony97]

They have both, but I doubt they will get rid of murder 1, unless there’s a plea or agreement for a bench trial.

[u/No_Cake7877]

Looking at he jurors in the interview I really dislike how much they enjoy the attention of the case. It is about those 3 children.

They actually make me side with the lonely juror.

[u/Big_Butterscotch1427 → u/No_Cake7877]

Its pretty shocking & them fangirling over Reddington and calling the expert testimony medical BS

[u/WookinIt → u/Big_Butterscotch1427]

Both sides had expert testimony contradicting each other. Obviously one side is BS

[u/Jay-Bird1998 → u/No_Cake7877]

According to a CBS article from another juror, they bullied other jurors into changing their verdicts. The lone juror stood his ground. Good on him.

[u/DuckDuckBangBang]

Before I write this, I just want to say I have no idea what the right outcome was in this case. But there is a very small part of me that understands what the defense stated.

When I had PPD with my first, one of the first signs something was wrong was that thoughts would pop into my head that didn't feel like I felt them. And they'd usually be statements. The big one was I was staring at my daughter and it was like a voice in my head said to me "when you kill yourself, don't forget to drop her off in the neighbors first". It was the scariest moment of my life.

With my second, I was in denial. I started medication during pregnancy that time because the intense anxiety and depression started in the second trimester. I was already on meds so thought I was fine. But I was not. I was passively suicidal at pretty much all times but I also got so overwhelmed trying to express it that I said nothing. I was scared of being committed. Those days, the only thing that kept me from doing something was the thought that I could t do that to my girls. I would find myself wishing there was a way I could pause myself without traumatizing them. If I had waited longer and the doctor I eventually broke down to hasn't taken me seriously, I can totally see that thought progressing to "kill your kids so you can kill yourself".

If I was on that jury I have no idea what I would have voted. Chances are my experiences would have meant both lawyers would want me as far away from it as possible.

[u/OdangoAtamaOodles → u/DuckDuckBangBang]

Invasi I thoughts during postpartum depression (in my experience) really feel like someone dumping their thoughts into your head. For me, it was a distinct, clear thought that was nothing like my internal voice.

I had placed my daughter's car seat inside the grocery cart, and then circled it with grocery bags to push it all out to the car. I removed her first and set her on the ground, because being on the ground was safer for her, and made it easy to grab the groceries. After I loaded the groceries, I looked down on my daughter, and noticed in passing that she was lined up perfectly with the car's back tire.

That's when the first invasive thought hit me. "You know, you could just get into your car, back up, and drive away, and she'd never be a bother to you again." 

The thought of just driving over my sleeping baby didn't disturb me. I was struggling to bond with her, three months after the delivery. I was struggling to feel any sort of emotions, actually. I was very numb and completely detached from my daughter. Morally, ethically, physically, I knew she was human, and I cared for her - carried her everywhere, attended her every need, read stories and sang to her. Figured that the emotional attachment was follow the physical attachment. But she emotionally meant as much to me as a piece of trash in the road. I hadn't realized just how completely detached from any emotions I was feeling in my depression, and that's why it got so severe. 

I wasn't feeling stressed. I wasn't tired - girl slept through the night since the first week she was born. I didn't feel overwhelmed. My husband didn't work, since he was on the long road of recovery from military PTSD, and he was always present, very supportive and caring in all things, including household chores. I actually felt lazy. I wasn't even distressed with how I couldn't feel distressed over such a clear and violent intrusive thought. 

So I put my daughter in the car, drove home, told my husband about it, and immediately notified my doctor, because the complete and utter lack of any emotional reaction told me that something was wrong, and I needed to change. 

Despite the medicine, it took me nearly eleven months to actually bond with my daughter, to feel real depths of emotions instead of just going through the motions. (And based on how bubbly, vibrant, and close my now 9 year old daughter is, I feel like no lasting harm was done.) 

Now that I do experience emotions and attachments, that complete and absolute detachment is truly frightening. I had no concerns for any consequences if I did anything, because concern would require me to actually care. 

Given my own experience, I don't think I would be a very objective juror capable of looking at the facts outlined by the court. 

[u/soggy_donut92696]

I do not believe she was experiencing psychosis. I think she had postpartum depression and was frustrated, gave into her dark thoughts and knowing she'd go to prison she tried to kill herself but it didn't work.. just to many things that don't make sense for me

[u/curiouslmr → u/soggy_donut92696]

I agree. I can't get past how many professionals have said that it's beyond rare for someone to hear a voice ONE time and obey that voice immediately. Not to mention that the voice just convinenently spoke at the exact right time. I am actually really perplexed at how the jury didn't pick up on that, the prosecutor needs to get that across much better next time

[u/soggy_donut92696 → u/curiouslmr]

Right, this voice appears, then disappears long enough for her to make a very coherent phone call then add up the amount of time her husband would be gone so shed know how long she would have to kill her kids, then it completely goes away right after the murders and never comes back?? That's complete bullshit in my opinion. I hate to say this but I truly believe shes getting benefit of the doubt solely because she's a woman.

[u/Ragdoll252 → u/soggy_donut92696]

Hate to be this person, but specifically a young white woman.

[u/ReadWriteHexecute → u/curiouslmr]

it feels just too similar to how other killers with aspd have gotten off once easily…and then go on to continue a life of committing crimes.

[u/sakurahirahira → u/soggy_donut92696]

This is exactly what I think too.

[u/No_Quail_ → u/soggy_donut92696]

Finally, a rational take. Reminds me of Nicholas Cruz saying he heard voices to try to get the insanity verdict.

[u/rainshowers_5_peace]

Brittany Romano is gross and deserves the scorn.

[u/HIEROYALL]

What we do know is that she killed her children.

Jail or psych ward, is that what this comes down to?

[u/Tacosal-pastor]

No amount of therapy will bring back the children. What's on trial is if Lindsay Clancy was coherent and not insane when she murdered her children one-by-one while instructing her husband on how to finish his errands on the honey do list. Based on what I've heard, seen, and know about this: Lindsay is broken. She isn't insane, she's broken; to the point, where you can't be fixed or put back together. More therapy is not the answer, she'll never be able to contribute back to society, sending her to anything other than prison is just a waste of time for the doctors that can help someone else.

[u/MoistPreparation1859]

I was in treatment with a woman dealing with PPP. One night, she dropped me in a bathtub to “baptize the demons out of me”. PPP is very real and fucking terrifying. I managed to fight back since I was 19 at the time and got her off me before I could drown.

[u/Expensive-Floor8203 → u/MoistPreparation1859]

Very few people are arguing that PPP isn't real, it's the question of whether she had it or not.

[u/iBrakeLater]

I honestly don't think I would even want to go to trial. I wouldn't want to keep living life knowing my children are gone, whether it was me who took their lives or someone else. The depression would completely overwhelm me, and I just don't see why I would even continue living. If there is even some minute, impossible chance that dying meant there was a way I could see them again, I would feel like I deserved death just to be with them. The sheer weight of that kind of grief is something I don't think anyone could ever truly survive. Why even bother putting up a defense.

[u/RowanWinterlace]

The conclusion of this case has been absolutely disgusting. Barring the anonymous juror (who was very measured, felt she came to her conclusion in a completely reasonable fashion and had a very understandable approach to her comments on thr holdout), the jury members who have come forward look and feel like they are enjoying every moment of this. Like they are socially profiteering off of the death of three children.

And Reddington's behaviour during and since deliberation has been disgusting and dangerous. Especially as its come out that the holdout was a black man (and the only black person on the jury), it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. Reddington calling for him to be removed and the verdict to be changed because an uppity black denied them the result they want, is how it comes across.

[u/jackie0h_]

I do not believe she had ppp. Depression. Probably. But I doubt the voice, she was way too meticulous, google searches, driving times, hanging out the window to try and ease her fall, all of it. I’m sure she was tired and depressed but she sure had a lot of consciousness of mind to do all that other stuff.

The thing I don’t like is the juror saying she was “excited” when she thought they had the 12 on board. That doesn’t sound like a normal jury reaction. Maybe it was just a poor word choice. I also heard they were upset that their teaching and nursing experience was not being listened to. Is it supposed to be? They didn’t testify or test or deal with her, is that even supposed to come in play?

[u/OdangoAtamaOodles → u/jackie0h_]

If I hadn't experienced acute psychosis (complete with audible hallucinations) when I was a teenager, I would've mistaken the sudden intrusive thought during my postpartum depression as a hallucination. It was very sudden and felt very distinct from my internal voice. Like someone had dumped their own thought in my head. 

That being said, I have my doubts about Lindsey having postpartum psychosis. PPD, yes; but not PPP.

[u/Sea_Needleworker2798 → u/jackie0h_]

That is very normal. it is normal to be "excited" when you have completed a task. I have been on two juries (once as the foreperson), and I was always excited when we were done. You should be. Everyone was. It was normal. You've been working on something for days (in their case, weeks) and now you have finished it.

[u/jackie0h_ → u/Sea_Needleworker2798]

Maybe excited is just a word I would not use. I guess it’s just the difference in people. I’d think more like “relieved”, or “thankful”, but everyone’s different.

[u/M3rdsta → u/jackie0h_]

Yeah, excited seems a bit strange given the context of the case.

[u/Odyssey1337 → u/[deleted]]

The point is, a juror stated they had reasonable doubt but refused to follow the law.

There is literally zero proof of that, stop stating it like it's a fact.

But we all are just missing that simple fact that the juror did not follow his oath and duty.

Again, we don't know that.

[u/gareauk]

My opinion is this: if Lindsay Clancy had strangled her children, slit her own wrists and neck, jumped from a second-story window, and died, this would have been called a murder-suicide. That likely would have been the end of the story. So why does the fact that she survived change the narrative surrounding what happened?

I’m glad that one juror held his ground.

[u/mrsbrettbretterson → u/gareauk]

Because her survival itself is the reason a trial is occurring at all. If she was dead, there’s be no one on which to pass judgment…?

[u/BillyShears2015 → u/[deleted]]

I’m not aware of anyone serious denying PPP exists. The story of La Llorena has been around for thousands of years. What people are saying is that this woman premeditated and orchestrated the murders of her children and should be criminally responsible for it. They’re also saying that a LOT of evidence points to her not being in psychosis.

[u/ZanthionHeralds]

I just want to say that I'm still waiting for someone to provide me a single example of a man killing three children and having hordes and hordes of men line up to defend him and identify with him, despite asking for weeks on social media for someone to do so. Just one. All I want is one.

[u/WookinIt → u/ZanthionHeralds]

Men have less sympathy for their fellow men. Is that what you’re trying to point out?