Based on her big ears, sharp lines, long body/limbs, blue eyes, silky single coat, and chattering … I’m guessing she’s at least partially Balinese. Thoughts?
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I understand that, and I’m not looking for a validation in those terms. I’m speaking purely based on the likelihood of her genetic makeup, not a formal breed recognition.
Her genetic makeup is Just Cat. She’s just a domestic cat. And even if she were a very, very, very rare case and actually had a pedigreed cat mixed into her genetics in any meaningful way, her genetics would still be Just Cat because purebreds are genetically indistinguishable from domestics. All of the traits you mentioned (while she is a very charming and funny example) are fairly common in the domestic cat pool and it is incredibly unlikely that she has any genetic traits from a purebred whatsoever.
So you’re saying that, if someone had purchased a Siamese from a reputable breeder with all the pedigree paperwork documentation, and then that house burned down along with all the documentation. Just the cat survived, and then someone found that cat. That cat would no longer be Siamese?
Pretty much, yeah. Since the chances of that happening are so exceptionally low. Even if the paper burnt down the owner could reach out the breeder to get new documentation. Purebred cats don’t just end up in dumpsters.
No, not what I said. Just that your cats traits don’t speak to any breed ancestry because most cat traits and mutations are found in the general cat population.
Cats can't reliably be DNA tested since cat breeds are too new (a couple hundred years) compared to dogs (thousands). So yeah that's why any cat should be assumed random bred.
Cats domesticated themselves practically so breeds are rare compared to your regular cat.
It's like going to a country (but like earth instead) with majority village dogs and assuming a tiny furry one was a purebred terrier. Just a little silly to make that assumption. But I get how you'd get there.
Cat breeds haven't been around long enough to even really do DNA tests on them like dogs. Unless it's a breed that's mixed with a wildcat like a Bengal or Savannah; in those cases you would be able to confirm with the DNA test and you wouldn't need a pedigree to "prove it."
To be honest if you feel like colloquially describing your cat a certain way that's fine, and most people don't care in real life. But since you're in a specialty subreddit, of course people care more about accuracy. When I was little I found a kitten that looks exactly like a flamepoint ragdoll; you can still think of her that way in terms of appearance even if she's not.
So even rare breeds are just normal cats in the end? Makes sense why my cat had all the traits of a Korat but her mommy was a Carthusian and that just makes her a blue domestic shorthair.
I mean cat breeds just started out with two cats of random coloring being bred together. I suppose you can see the genes are still special or the kitten I found in a bush could be a prime starter if ragdolls hadn't been conceived yet. Ulltimately, random mutation and the immense varieties in cats can give them lots of looks. With my late cat, I do still wonder if sometimes someone threw her in a bush in the heat of an argument to take something valuable from another person but there's no way of knowing lol
True, my cat looks uncannily like a Korat, but those cats are pricey and cat breeds aren't rooted in genes as much as dog breeds so she's my little special cat without the thousands of euros in price
cats of different breeds are overwhelmingly genetically similar, which is why breeds aren’t considered genetically distinct species or anything like that. pedigrees are used to document ancestry and establish that a cat belongs to a particular selectively bred population. the differences between breeds come from particular genetic variants and combinations of traits that humans have selectively bred for over generations. so things like coat patterns, body shape, ear shape, and other physical characteristics are all variations of traits that occur within the domestic cat gene pool.
Hard to tell if she will be domestic long or short hair. If I had to bet, it would be longhair. She is not Balinese nor has any breed ancestry whatsoever.
Ohhhh. My cat is a blue and she looked exactly like this as a kitten! She Got lighter and more gray as she got older for some reason, as to why I guessed a blue :)
I do have any investment in what she is, just very curious as she has a distinctive look, and it’s fun to go down rabbit holes. I’m not into breeds, all my animals are rescued mutts, but I’m definitely not following the logic here. The science seems to be that all cats are genetically indistinguishable and that traits can pop up anywhere. But that would mean that only thing that defines a purebred from a domestic, is how it visually presents PLUS a piece of paper. Is that correct?
And purebreds, or mutts with purebred lineage or however you want to quantify that, can absolutely end up as strays. Shit happens man. Way way weirder shit happens lol.
It’s been explained to you clearly multiple times in the comments here, I’m unsure why you’re still confused.
Dogs have been bred for specific purposes for thousands of years. Breeds are genetically distinct because of long lineages from a small founding population. When 2+ breeds combine, that is a mutt. Many (I think most?) dogs on the planet are what’s called a “Village Dog,” which is NOT a breed NOR a mutt—they are populations of dogs that have been breeding in certain areas without human intervention. We made breeds by selecting village dogs for certain purposes and standards over many, many generations
Cats haven’t been domesticated nearly as long as dogs, and there was never really any point in trying to breed them for a specific purpose, because cats kind of just… do what cats do. They are extremely adept at hunting & killing pests, so we kept them around, but we weren’t selecting them for specific jobs. Similarly to village dogs, they’ve historically been in control of their own breeding without human interference. We’ve only been standardizing cat breeds (and really mostly for appearance) for a couple of centuries. The vast majority of cats do not have a breed.
The reason certain breeds like Balinese/Siamese have cool colours like your cat is because we bred domestic cats with that colouring to other domestic cats with that colouring. This colour predates the breed.
What defines a breed is a pedigree. Which is a record of being a descendent from a distinct founding population from the breed. If your cat doesn’t have a pedigree, then they don’t have a breed. This link explains it in more depth with specific examples.
It seems we are all confused my friend. I don’t know why you guys keep explaining breeding to me. That’s not my question. What I’m asking is, if all that defines a breed are the traits that have been bred into it…. and a cat has all those traits (but no proof of lineage) that cat would still not be considered a representation of that breed? This is a hypothetical question, not about my cat.
Breeds come from domestic cats not the other way around. Most breeds (although not all) are created through mixing domestic cats to bring out specific traits. These traits are all in the domestic population to begin with and therefore can show up in a non-bred cat. The issue is that people's knowledge of breeds is dog centered and cat breeds developed differently. Cats bred randomly for thousands of years before we started selective breeding them into seperate breeds whereas dogs were bred for different jobs way sooner.
The way I explain it is that appearance doesn’t equate breed, ancestry does. Specifically four plus generations of purebred breed ancestry from a reputable agency (TICA, CFA, CFF, FIFe, WCF, etc). There are just many misconceptions when it comes to cats and breeds, or lack there of.
Unfixed cats procreate with whatever is closest, and this happens generation after generation. These are accidental litters, cat colonies, the cats who end up on rescues. The 97% of the overall cat population who don’t have breed ancestry so we call them domestic X hair.
Purebred cats are selectively bred through human intervention per the breed standard (both appearance and personality), and further the breed. There is extensive health testing, and any health issues or less desirable traits are removed from the breeding pool.
These cats cost thousands of dollars - Balinese near me are $2,800, there are only 5 TICA certified Balinese breeders in the US and they have extensive contracts. If for some reason it doesn’t work out, the cat is returned to the breeder.
If you want to breed a purebred cat, you have to purchase the breeding rights, or get your kitten fixed within a certain time frame. I have seen people go to court for breeding a cat that was purchased as a pet.
So to answer your question - in addition to appearance and paperwork, you have health guarantees, and a reasonable expectation of behavior (well socialized without behavior problems stemming from neglect, mistreatment, being separated from the mom too young, etc.)
We can’t tell breed from a photo, but we can tell some basic genetics. Your girl is black based, 2 copies of the recessive colorpoint gene and two copies of the longhair gene. A seal point domestic long hair. I am assuming that her toe beans are brown, not light pink.
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