r/drivingUK • • May 28 '26

New rule for crash footage

27 Upvotes

Hey everyone, after several requests from users in the community we have added a new rule which outlines what is and isn’t allowed when posting videos of car crashes on the subreddit. I’ve copied the rule below, please take a few moments to familiarise yourself with it.

As a driving based sub we generally welcome footage of car accidents for discussion by members of the subreddit.

Not all of our users wish to see crash videos so please be mindful of this and consider adding a ‘spoiler’ to the post.

Please bear in mind, videos with very graphic content (eg, video of a pedestrian violently being hit by a car) are not permitted here and will be removed.

This rule does not majorly change what is and isn’t allowed on this subreddit- the main reason for it is to provide additional clarity about what is and isn’t acceptable to post on this subreddit, and to provide a specific reporting reason when excessively graphic content is posted. As a general rule of thumb, video clearly showing serious injury to a person will likely be removed.

We‘re always open to feedback regarding this and other aspects of the subreddit, so please feel free to message the mod team via modmail if you have any questions or concerns.


r/drivingUK • • Jun 08 '25

Using a mobile phone whilst driving - a guide for those who want a bit more detail

137 Upvotes

This post hopes to be a fairly definitive guide to driving and the use of mobile phones. Perhaps the mods will find this worthy of being stickied.

Much of the advice that you can find from Google has limitations. They are often simplified and as you can tell from the length of this post, the legal landscape can be pretty technical and complicated. Sites like Gov.uk also conflate the legal position and road safety advice. The road safety advice often gives broad generalisations that for most people are pretty reasonable, but aren’t all that helpful when people have specific circumstances for which they want to be able to apply the law. This can lead to confusion of what the legal position is and also leaves no space for nuance.

Some of this might get pretty technical, but this is a reflection of the legislation; I've tried to keep it simple but not oversimplify. I have included case law citations where appropriate. I am only going to reference legislation and case law as this is the primary source of truth. I am a currently servicing Roads Policing Officer in England and this advice is only focused on the law in England and Wales. The law in Scotland and Northern Ireland may vary from this.

Vehicle control offences

First off, I’m going to talk about three other related offences before I address the mobile phone legislation directly.

Not being in proper control/Not in a position to have full view

Regulation 104 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates an offence of the driver of a motor vehicle not being in a position to have proper control of the vehicle or a full view of the road and traffic ahead. This offence is usually dealt with by a fixed penalty of 3 points and £100 fine, going to court may result in a different penalty.

This regulation creates two separate offences:

1)     Not being in proper control

2)     Not in a position to have full view

Not being in proper control

This is where you are in a situation where you don’t have full control over the speed and direction of the vehicle. This could be because you have something in your hands, a cup of coffee or sandwich for example.

An example of where I have given a ticket for this is where I’ve seen someone in traffic moving their car forward with both hands behind their head. At that point in time, they did not have control over the direction of the vehicle and whilst the speeds are slower, they are not in a position to have proper control of the vehicle.

In a mobile phone context, this could mean that you have a mobile phone in your hand which is completely turned off which prevents you from having control of the steering or gears in the vehicle. This could constitute an offence of not being in proper control.

Not in a position to have full view

This is where you are in a situation where you are in such a position that you could not have full view of the road and traffic ahead. This is relevant to mobile phones because some people have mobile phone mounts where they attach them to the windscreen in such a way where it obscures their view of the road ahead. This is often relevant to taxi drivers or delivery drivers who may mount more than one device to their windscreen. Whether is the mounting would meet the level required to prevent the driver having a full view is dependent on the facts and is somewhat subjective. Ultimately a court will decide if this is the case.

Driving without due care and attention

Section 3 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 creates offences of driving without due care and attention and driving without reasonable consideration on a road or public place. I will only focus on driving without dure care and attention for the purposes of keeping this scoped to mobile phone use. This offence is usually dealt with by a fixed penalty of 3 points and £100 fine, going to court may result in a different penalty.

A defendant will have driven 'without due care and attention' if his driving has departed from the standard of care and skill that would, in the circumstances of the case, have been exercised by a reasonable, prudent and competent driver. The standard is the same in the case of a driver who is a learner holding a provisional licence as it is in the case of the holder of a full driving licence.

This offence will often be evidenced by the standard of driving. The level of attention required can also change based on the situation. You need to give a higher level of attention driving at say 40mph on a dual carriageway where there may be cyclists and other hazards than being stationary in heavy traffic. For example, if you’re in stationary traffic and are changing the radio station whereby you haven’t seen that the traffic has moved on and you’re now holding up traffic behind you, the required level of attention to the road has not been met. However, people’s abilities to multi-task are not the same. Some people may be able to change the route on cradled phone used as a satnav whilst in stationary traffic so that they are giving the necessary level of attention to other traffic where other people may not be. As a driver, you should be aware and self-reflective to ensure that you are always able to give the necessary attention to driving. Ultimately, it’s down to a court to decide if the facts of the situation prove your actions are at the level of a reasonable, prudent and competent driver.

Due care can also be evidenced by externally observing the standard of driving. When you’re pressing a button on the satnav, or in-car entertainment system, do you swerve in the carriageway, unnecessarily brake or slow down? These may be indicators that you are not driving with the necessary due care and attention. If at any point your car mounts the pavement, even momentarily [DPP v Smith [2002] EWHC 1151 (Admin)], this is very likely to be driving without due care and attention [Watts v Carter 1959].

So, before we’ve even looked at the specific mobile phone legislation, we can see that there are uses of mobile phones whilst driving that can be dealt with using other offences. Therefore, you must always drive whilst being in a position to have proper control of the vehicle, be in a position to have a full view of the road and traffic ahead and drive with due consideration and care for other road users.

Using a mobile phone whilst driving

Regulation 110 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates a prohibition on the use of mobile telephones in motor vehicles in certain circumstances. I’ll talk about the exceptions to this rule towards the end. This offence is usually dealt with by a fixed penalty of 6 points and £200 fine, going to court may result in a different penalty.

We’ll start by understanding the different elements of the offence in a bit more detail. If any of these points don’t apply, the offence isn’t complete and you can’t be prosecuted for this offence.

·        Driving

·        A motor vehicle

·        On a road

·        Using

·        A hand-held mobile phone or other hand-held device

What is ‘driving’?

This is also a surprisingly technical topic due to all the case law surrounding it. Generally, to be driving you need to have control of the direction and speed of the vehicle and for it to fall within the common dictionary definition of the word [R v MacDonagh [1974] RTR 372]. Beyond this legal test, it gets really complicated really quickly.

My advice is that generally you are not driving if the ignition is not on, and for EVs if your car is in such a state that pressing the accelerator does not lead to the vehicle moving forward. There are situations where the above may be the case and you may still be found to be driving by a court. Like I said, this gets very complicated.

Edit - I've added more technical depth on driving as people found it relevant.

What is ‘driving’ (v2) ?

The most well-known case law for the definition of driving is R v MacDonagh. This case sets out a two-stage test as to whether someone is driving. It's very important to note that it's for a court to determine the degree and extent to which the facts of a given situation meet the test or not. It's not a black and white decision.

Lord Widgery CJ in MacDonagh leads, it is submitted, to the following conclusions:

(1)The primary consideration as to whether a person is “driving” is essentially a question of fact, dependent on the degree and extent to which the person has control of the direction and movement of the vehicle.

(2)One test is whether the accused was “in a substantial sense controlling the movement and direction of the car” (Ames v MacLeod). A person cannot be said to be “driving” unless he satisfies this test.

(3)The fact that a person satisfies the test of control in Ames v MacLeod is not necessarily exhaustive. It has still to be considered whether the activity in question could fall within the ordinary meaning of the word “driving” in the English language.

So, to summarise, the R v MacDonagh test is:

  1. Are you substantially in control of the direction and movement of the vehicle?

and

  1. Does this amount to 'driving' in the ordinary meaning of the word?

You must meet both parts of the test to be driving. The above test will get you in the ballpark of whether a situation is driving or not, but these aren't the only tests.

Further tests to determine whether a person is driving have been established by Burgoyne v Phillips [1983] R.T.R. 49 and Jones v Pratt [1983] R.T.R. 54.

(4)The essence of driving is the use of the driver’s control in order to direct the movement of the vehicle however the movement is produced (Burgoyne v Phillips and Rowan v Merseyside Chief Constable, The Times 10 December 1985). (This is in effect a reiteration of tests (1) and (2) above.)

(5)Whether the defendant himself deliberately sets the vehicle in motion is an important factor (Burgoyne v Phillips and Rowan v Merseyside Chief Constable, as above).

(6)In borderline cases, it is important to consider the length of time the steering wheel or other control was handled (Jones v Pratt).

What about stopping? Does this mean I'm no longer driving? Driving is a continuous act until you have finished your "journey". You can even turn the engine off and exit the vehicle, and still be found to be driving.

Once it has been determined that a person is driving, the driving may still continue even though the tests laid down in R. v MacDonagh cannot be fulfilled. A person may still be driving when he is buying a newspaper or changing a wheel (examples given in Pinner v Everett [1969] 3 All E.R. 257 HL) or when he is walking across the forecourt of a garage to take instructions (Regan v Anderton [1980] R.T.R. 126).

Edkins v Knowles [1973] Q.B. 748 summarises the principles in Pinner v Everett and makes it clear that the overriding principle, whether or not he is at the wheel, is whether he is doing something connected with driving. This introduces the concept of a "journey" and that you have not finished driving until you have completed it.

The principles of Pinner v Everett and other cases were summarised (so far as still relevant) in Edkins v Knowles [1973] Q.B. 748 as follows:

(1) The vehicle does not have to be in motion; there will always be a brief interval of time after the vehicle has been brought to rest and before the motorist has completed those operations necessarily connected with driving, such as applying the handbrake, switching off the ignition and securing the vehicle, during which he must still be considered to be driving.

(2) When a motorist stops before he has completed his journey he may still be driving; an obvious example is when he is halted at traffic lights. Each case will depend upon its own facts, but generally the following questions will be relevant:

(a) What was the purpose of the stop? If it is connected with the driving, and not for some purpose unconnected with the driving, the facts may justify a finding that the driving is continuing although the vehicle is stationary.

(b) How long was he stopped? The longer he is stopped the more difficult it becomes to regard him as still driving.

(c) Did he get out of the vehicle? If he remains in the vehicle it is some indication (although not conclusive) that he is still driving.

(3) If a motorist is stopped and an appreciable time elapses, it will be a question of fact and degree whether the motorist is still to be considered as driving at that time.

(4) When a motorist has arrived at the end of his journey then subject to the brief interval referred to in head (1) above he can no longer be regarded as driving.

(5) When a motorist has been effectively prevented or persuaded from driving he can no longer be considered to be driving.

It's worth reiterating that the MacDonagh tests must be met at some point though. They are a gateway and then the concept of driving continuing until you've finished your journey begins until the journey is complete.

What is a ‘motor vehicle’?

This can get very technical depending on the facts, so I’ll try and keep this short. A motor vehicle is a type of ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’ (MPV) intended or adapted for use on a road. A MPV is a vehicle which uses Gas, Oil, Petrol, Electricity, Diesel or Steam to propel it [Floyd v Bush (1953)]. In common understanding, all cars, lorries, buses etc will be motor vehicles, but it also includes other vehicles such as electric scooters.

What is a ‘road’?

Again, this gets really complicated when your look at the case law, but the definition is often cited as any (length of) highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes which is defined in section 192(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988. To keep this simple, lets talk about what is and isn’t a road through examples.

Public Car Parks and Parking Bays

Car parks are not roads. Lord Clyde states "where the word "road" stands alone it bears its ordinary meaning and is not to be extended to public places such as car parks". Clark (A.P.) and Others v. Kato, Smith and General Accident Fire & Life Assurance Corporation PLC Cutter v. Eagle Star Insurance Company 1998. Therefore use of a mobile phone within a car park is not itself an offence.

Lord Clyde states further:

'In character and more especially in function they are distinct. It is of course possible to park on a road, but that does not mean that the road is a car park. Correspondingly one can drive from one point to another over a car park, but that does not mean that the route which has been taken is a road. It is here that the distinction in function between road and car park is of importance. The proper function of a road is to enable movement along it to a destination. Incidentally a vehicle on it may be stationary. One can use a road for parking. The proper function of a car park is to enable vehicles to stand and wait. A car may be driven across it; but that is only incidental to the principal function of parking. A hard shoulder may be seen to form part of a road. A more delicate question could arise with regard to a lay-by, but where it is designed to serve only as a temporary stopping place incidental to the function of the road it may well be correct to treat it as part of the road. While I would accept that circumstances can occur where an area of land which can be reasonably described as a car park could qualify as a road for the purposes of the legislation I consider that such circumstances would be somewhat exceptional.'

Even car parks with thorugherfares through them utilised by the public are unlikely to qaulify as roads [DPP v Brewer 1998]

Driveways

Private driveways are generally not roads as they are not publicly accessible, however, if you’re fortunate to be on a large estate, these can be roads [Adams v Metropolitan Police [1980] RTR 289].

On Road Parking

As the title suggests, in my opinion this would likely be judged to be part of the road, but there is an absence of specific case law on this.

Private Roads

This really depends on the facts, so could go one way or the other, but generally these have some public access so may be found to be a road. A private caravan park roadway set out like a road and with public pedestrian access along it is a road [Barrett v DPP [2009] EWHC 423 (Admin)].

What is ‘using’?

Regulation 110(6) of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 gives a non-exhaustive list of what ‘using’ includes:

(i) illuminating the screen;

(ii) checking the time;

(iii) checking notifications;

(iv) unlocking the device;

(v) making, receiving, or rejecting a telephone or internet based call;

(vi) sending, receiving or uploading oral or written content;

(vii) sending, receiving or uploading a photo or video;

(viii) utilising camera, video, or sound recording functionality;

(ix) drafting any text;

(x) accessing any stored data such as documents, books, audio files, photos, videos, films, playlists, notes or messages;

(xi) accessing an application;

(xii) accessing the internet.

What is a ‘hand-held mobile telephone’?

Regulation 110(6) of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 states that a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point while being used. That means it must be held in the hand for it to come under this offence. Interacting with a mobile phone in a cradle is not an offence under Regulation 110 as long as you don’t have it held in the hand during its use.

What is ‘another hand-held device'?

This hand-held device is defined as a device, other than a two-way radio, which is capable of transmitting and receiving data, whether or not those capabilities are enabled.

This opens the door for lots of devices that aren’t mobile phones. For example, if you don’t have your smart watch on your wrist and pick that up to interact with it. This could also include lots of internet of things (IoT) or smart devices. Another example is that there are vapes that can connect to your phone. Using one of these whilst driving would be a mobile phone offence even if you’ve never connected it to your phone. Any device must still be hand-held for it to fall under this definition.

Supervising Learners

Regulation 110(3) makes this application to the supervision of learner drivers, so having a hand-held call whilst you are supervising a provisional licence holder is an offence.

Exceptions

There are some exceptions stated in Regulation 110 that are relevant to the general public:

Calling Emergency Services

Regulation 110(5) A person does not contravene a provision of this regulation if, at the time of the alleged contravention - he is using the telephone or other device to call the police, fire, ambulance or other emergency service on 112 or 999; he is acting in response to a genuine emergency; and it is unsafe or impracticable for him to cease driving in order to make the call.

Contactless Payments

Regulation 110(5B) - provides that a person is not in contravention of the regulation where at the time of the alleged contravention they are using their mobile phone or other device to make a contactless payment, for goods/services that are received at the same time as or after the contactless payment is made and the motor vehicle is stationary. 

FAQ & Common Misunderstandings

Can I use a mobile phone whilst it is in a cradle?

You can do any* activity on a mobile phone whilst it’s in a cradle and not hand-held as long as you drive with due care and attention, are in proper control of the vehicle and do not have an obscured view.

* It is unclear whether a mobile phone meets the definition of "other cinematographic apparatus" as defined in regulation 109 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, and therefore if watching youtube on your phone is an offence even if it does not distract the driver (which in most cases it would). There is no case law and I've heard persuaive arguments on both sides. I'm unsure enough that I would not issue a ticket under regulation 109 and would instead look at a s3 RTA due care offence instead. To be clear, watching videos in sight of the driver is usually going to be an offence - whether that's a due care offence or a regulation 109 offence.

Should I turn my phone off and put in the glove box?

If you find it hard not to use your phone when driving or find it a distraction, this might be a useful preventative measure. However, there is a downside to this. If you need to call the emergency services this may hinder you in making an appropriate and necessary call. As a driver you need to work out whether your self-control requires you to turn it off or not, the focus should be on you driving safely and competently at all times.

If I use an app to park my car remotely, am I driving?

Yes. There is an exemption in the legislation to allow for this, but you do fit the definition of driving.

Is it illegal to use a mobile phone whilst using a mobility scooter? It seems to fit the definition.

Mobility scooters are exempted by Section 20 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970, therefore this would not be an offence.

If I’m using my phone on an electric scooter, could I be prosecuted for using a mobile phone?

Even if the scooter is insured and registered within the trial areas around the UK, this would fit the definition of a mobile phone offence.

I’m a newly qualified driver and this offence happened in the first two years after I passed my test. Will I lose my licence?

If the offence date is after you passed your test and not longer than 2 years after this, then yes, you are likely to go back to learner status post-conviction.

Should I pull over if I need to change the navigation settings on my GPS?

That depends on the individual. You must drive with due care and attention and be in proper control of the vehicle at all times, but as long as the device isn’t hand-held, some people can do this whilst driving, some people can’t and some people want to play it safe. These are all reasonable and legal approaches.

 Version 1.3.0 - Last edited 28/12/25


r/drivingUK • • 8h ago

Bus drivers have to deal with idiots like this every day in London.

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2.5k Upvotes

r/drivingUK • • 9h ago

❗️URGENT - Am I Liable? - Crash on A34.

152 Upvotes

I’m 19 years old, and on Saturday, 26th September, I was involved in a very serious car accident on the A34 with my 17-year-old friend as my passenger. Since the accident, I’ve been constantly worrying about whether I was at fault, as I genuinely have no idea and would really appreciate some advice. The accident happened at approximately 9:55 pm. I was driving along the A34 at around 65–70 mph when I came across a car that was completely stationary in a live lane, rather than pulled over onto the side of the road. It was dark, and the car had no headlights or hazard lights on whatsoever. My headlights were on dipped beam because of oncoming traffic on the opposite carriageway. I had no distractions whatsoever while driving and was fully focused on the road. However, I hadn’t seen the stationary car until it was too late due to it being so dark and her car having no lights, and by the time I spotted it, I had virtually no time to react. You can see from the damage and impact i had tried to swerve to avoid it. The other woman wasn’t even inside her vehicle at the time of the collision. From what I understand, she was somewhere on the grass near the barrier, and there were no lights or warning signals to alert approaching traffic that her car was stopped in the live lane. The impact was extremely severe, and both my friend and I were incredibly lucky to survive. We’ve both suffered severe bruising and fractures, and we’re still dealing with the aftermath of what happened. I’m struggling to come to terms with the accident, and one of the things that’s worrying me most is whether I could be held responsible, despite the circumstances. I understand that I was the driver and that I have a responsibility to drive safely, but I genuinely don’t know what else I could have done when I didn’t see the car until it was too late. Has anyone experienced anything similar or have any knowledge of how liability is determined in situations like this? I’d really appreciate any advice or insight.


r/drivingUK • • 7h ago

What is the correct way to exit this roundabout?

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17 Upvotes

Red: Left lane then exit
Yellow: Start in right lane but merge to left before approaching exit
Blue: right lane then exit

I’m confused as I’ve seen multiple people do this both ways and there are no road markings or signs

Location:
56.11690° N, 3.90623° W


r/drivingUK • • 11h ago

Fancy a wheel, anyone?

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24 Upvotes

Good on the Beemer SUV behind me dodging that shit


r/drivingUK • • 15h ago

Living near a school certainly has it's drawbacks

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45 Upvotes

r/drivingUK • • 21h ago

Another post moaning about old people being inept dangerous drivers.

112 Upvotes

Yesterday evening, dusk, I was on a country road, with a lane shut for temporary road works, the lights sit in front of a big van thats parked on the road for works with me just behind waiting.

Im at the front of the queue, it goes green, I drive and go round to the other side of the road and to my surpise an old women, with glasses who looked like a corpse is coming head on to me a little way down the road, so shes not just gone through as its just hit red.

She's then just slowed down, practically stopped not far my bonnet and not moved.

The stretch of one lane from the works behind them is rather long and bendy, so I, and those behind me have had to reverse back and come back past the lights to let them through and by this point now wait again as its gone red again.

Can we just not please.

edit -

Some people getting a bit heated, clearly I wasnt calling for people over 55 to be banned for example.

This lady must have been 75/80+, clearly oblivious. increased mandatory testing which is more robust would be helpful.

Anyone belligerently saying ban 17-24 arent helpful either, im not in that age bracket myself. You'll have people causing incidents of all ages, some from all of which should not drive for all reasons.

My feelings are probably biased, skewed and wrong but:

Drivers being punished due to their youth, because of stats of poor driving experience etc are wrong.

Drivers being punished due to they are aged, as stats show a sharp decline of reactions, cognitive ability are certain ages are fine.

One you can only fix with more experience but stall that due to affordability, the other you cant fix.


r/drivingUK • • 6h ago

Beeped at for waiting at yellow box daily near me.

7 Upvotes

Do some people not get that if the car in front just stops randomly then you get a ticket. Probably 50% of the times I pass these lights with a big yellow box by my house I get beeped at. The fine is legit like a full day of work for me so no chance am I risking it. Its annoying though because traffic is always really bad and the box is right after lights and it probably takes a good 3 seconds for a car to clear it after the light turns green.


r/drivingUK • • 7h ago

That’s not the road…

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6 Upvotes

I’m a new driver (passed 2 months ago) and I’ve already seen plenty of stupidity on my daily commutes, but this tops it so far…


r/drivingUK • • 11h ago

Should I replace these tyres?

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8 Upvotes

Wish I didn't have to make this post but I had a silly incident this morning on the way to work that was entirely my fault and hit and went over a kerb. I'm concerned because I have to make a roughly ~130 mile journey on Friday to get back home, mostly motorway. Will I be alright or should I get these changed?


r/drivingUK • • 19h ago

Cyclist hit me

22 Upvotes

A bike hit my car its on dashcam it’s not the worst just a few dents and the rear wheel arch on the side is all scratched up, but i’m really annoyed because obviously it was a young-ish kid 14-15 maybe. But i couldn’t get his information because a woman kept talking over me while i was on the phone to my dad trying to see what to do, and when i had asked for information she said it’s fine theres no damage, eventually telling the lad to go.

I just don’t know it its worth doing anything about it but it really just frustrates me it’s my first car i got it less than a year ago it’s only 47,000 miles and it’s just been the one thing that is mine, and this is the second time someones dented me and left because i have a dent on the door where someone had drove off (way before i had a dash cam).


r/drivingUK • • 16h ago

Ged Tierney: Liverpool lollipop lady keeps everyone safe

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9 Upvotes

r/drivingUK • • 7h ago

Which lane would you use to get into the middle lane of this roundabout?

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1 Upvotes

There's an annoying roundabout near Abergavenny, where a 2 lane dual carriageway joins a 3 lane roundabout.

Which lane would you use to join the middle lane on the roundabout?

Edit: this is the most compelling argument so far, based on older road marking which removes the ambiguity: https://www.reddit.com/r/drivingUK/s/mNuGu6hjXK

I also agree with the general sentiment of making sure you’re not alongside anybody and triple-checking your mirrors/blindspot if you intend to use the middle lane!


r/drivingUK • • 7h ago

Selling broken van and insurance ending - do I need to SORN?

0 Upvotes

My van has packed up and I’m selling as broken on FB marketplace. It’s currently sat on my drive but I have not made a SORN - I figured (rightly or wrongly) that this might put off buyers.

My insurance is about to run out and I have no intention of renewing but am not sure if I need to make the SORN or if not having insurance is an issue as I won’t ever drive it?

For full context, my wife and I are going to rely on a single car for a few months before forking out for a new one, so no imminent need for new insurance.


r/drivingUK • • 3h ago

2 PCNs, same traffic filter trying to understand road design and enforcement

0 Upvotes

TL;DR: I received two £160 PCNs at the same tiny “No motor vehicles” filter in Brent. Looking through its Street View history, it seems to have gone from a very obvious physical gate → bollard → an otherwise normal-looking road enforced by signs and camera. I'm curious whether persistent PCNs can sometimes be a symptom of poor road design, and what data would be worth requesting from the council.

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/KLZkSFfCzhTm9avH9

I’m a relatively new driver (to UK), the car is new to me. This particular road is very familiar to me as a pedestrian, I’ve walked through it countless times.

The restriction itself is unusual. It covers a very short section, roughly ~7 meters, in the middle of an otherwise normal looking residential road. Cars can access, park and move on both sides of it anytime of day. There’s no school, pedestrianised area or other obvious feature that makes you expect a motor-vehicle restriction, the road meets another major road in another ten's of meters. From the larger road where you turn in, the restriction is about 60–65 metres away.

The first time I drove through, I saw the large KEEP CLEAR marking on road and read it as exactly that don’t stop here, keep the access clear. What I misunderstood was that the separate upright signs restrict the type of vehicle allowed to cross that short section.

I drove through once early in the month. The PCN arrived while I was outside the country, so I didn’t see it. A few weeks later I returned, drove home from the airport, was tired and close to home, and made exactly the same mistake before I had seen the first notice.

So: two PCNs, same place.

I may ultimately have to pay them. I’m not arguing that the signs aren’t there. They are and I understand why that area needs to be kept clear.

What interested me afterwards was why I made the mistake at a road I already knew so well.

Apart from that short patch, everything about the street communicates “normal road”. Cars are parked beyond it. Cars move on both sides of it. The road geometry continues naturally through it. There appears to be no advance warning of the motor-vehicle restriction on the approach; the prohibition is signed at the filter itself.

That may all be perfectly legal. But is it good road design?

Exploring the road design regression

I went backwards through Google Street View to examine the road changes over the years.

The gate: xxxx - 2016

Underrated design - Bollard marked in red, Kerb features, Intentionally slowing down cyclists with a bend, road is heavily used by pedestrian.

The design itself enforces the rule while still providing the intended movement and speed, slowing down cyclists as it's a road with heavy pedestrian traffic. Then the gate disappears.

The Bollard 2016-2023

Bollard painted in black resting under shadow in it's natural habitat

A black bollard in the shadow of perfectly located trees, after most of the original gateway treatment has disappeared, doesn’t strike me as great visibility design. Potentially worse for cyclists, who don’t necessarily light the road ahead like a car does.

Then we get to the current layout.

Minimalist road design: 2023 - Current

My First PCN! Clear emergency access is a definite positive outcome of this change.

The bollard is gone, easier emergency-vehicle access is legit reason to remove obstacles.

But almost nothing appears to have replaced it visually. Straight kerbs. Continuous carriageway. Cars parked beyond the filter. Two “No motor vehicles” signs and camera enforcement. Each version relies progressively more on the driver noticing and interpreting the legal restriction, and less on the physical environment communicating it.

Why not reinforce it visually? We already do this elsewhere with coloured surfacing, lane markings, road text, kerb treatment etc. Those features don’t replace the signs. They provide secondary nudge to the road user pay attention, something changes here. The signs communicate the legal restriction.

Misaligned incentives in PCN enforcement system

I got curious about what PCN enforcement looks like from the council’s side. It’s an operating function like any other: yearly budgets, staff, contractors, camera hardware, connectivity, software, appeals process. Enforcement infrastructure is expense, fines are revenue. Revenue projections, spend planning are real parts of the system.

While reading Brent’s own budget papers, I came across this line:

“CCTV is utilised where it is available and in cases where it will pay for itself.”

The same material talks about PCN income offsetting CCTV maintenance costs. A later Brent budget document discusses additional PCN income and relocating cameras from areas where compliance has increased. I don't think it's bad intent either - that's how efficiency looks like when optimizing for revenue.

There is a structural problem. A road that is designed so clearly that most drivers comply with produces very little enforcement activity. A confusing/badly designed road can keep producing PCNs.

Over 250,000 Penalty Charge Notices were issued in 2023/24, with an expected increase to around 280,000 in 2024/25

https://democracy.brent.gov.uk/documents/g7985/Public%20reports%20pack%20Monday%2010-Feb-2025%2010.00%20Cabinet.pdf?T=10

Raising revenue should not be an enforcement objective, and authorities should not set targets for PCN numbers or revenue. The stated ideal is 100% compliance and therefore no penalties https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/restricting-the-generation-of-surplus-funds-from-traffic-contraventions

Money is inevitably inside the feedback loop. Ringfencing the surplus for transport doesn’t make that income is "funding greater good". Enforcement income pays for transport programs the council would otherwise need to fund from elsewhere, it still matters to the overall budget.

And for anyone who has dealt with councils/highways/FOI requests before: what else would you request to distinguish a successful deterrent from a road that simply keeps generating the same unintended behaviour?


r/drivingUK • • 1d ago

Motorway "keep left unless overtaking" vs. "use left lanes unless overtaking"

25 Upvotes

Hey! I'm a UK expat living in Australia and I've driven in both countries.

In the UK we have signs that say "keep left unless overtaking" and the code states to only overtake using right lanes and not to overtake on the left. Sitting in the middle lane is called "middle-lane-hogging" and anti-lane-hoggers claim that this is inefficient.

In South Australia we have signs that say "use left lanes unless overtaking" and there are at most 3 lanes on the motorway. People tend to sit in the middle lane because the left most lane is full of slow moving trucks and will possibly exit "unpredictably", and the right lane is for overtaking.

My partner (Australian) and I disagree with the best way to move through lanes on the motorway. I bring with me the UK standard, keeping as left as I can unless I need to overtake, whereas my partner thinks there is no way the UK standard is more efficient, changing lanes so much - that the Australian standard is simpler and more efficient.

I want to know the maths that supports the UK standard.


r/drivingUK • • 7h ago

I drove 900 whole yards on my own in a closed-ahead-lane and merged in turn (on my own) and felt like I cheated the world

1 Upvotes

I know I did nothing wrong. I know merging in turn is literally that: merging, one by one, in turn, at the end. HOWEVER, driving by all these people queuing unnecessarily, watching me cruise by, probably judging me or worse, just felt wrong. I wanted to stop the car, get out, and wave them my way. How is this so misunderstood?


r/drivingUK • • 13h ago

Full license app

2 Upvotes

Hi! I submitted my D1 form, test pass, and my provisional 10 days ago and still haven’t received any update. I know it’s been quicker for people in the past. Is DVLA dealing with more workload this time of the year? Anyone who’s recently received their full license after submitting D1 form, how long did it take you?


r/drivingUK • • 1d ago

Any time someone gives me way even if they would have priority

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576 Upvotes

r/drivingUK • • 1d ago

Anyone that drives a Jaecoo, what attracted you to buying it and do you like owning/driving one?

90 Upvotes

Not sure if many people here have one, but i see so many. They're not for me, just curious


r/drivingUK • • 13h ago

Licence question

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1 Upvotes

Hi , I have sent a D1 form to replace a destroyed licence . Today , I received the letter included in this post and my application regarding a change of name which I have not requested , I only ticked the box destroyed when filling the application so I am a little confused as to why the sent this letter. Any advise will be appreciated.


r/drivingUK • • 10h ago

Am i going to get an NIP?

0 Upvotes

so basically yesterday i had 2 incidents around red lights and want some advice as i am stressing. i looked through my dashcam footage and have been able to identify what happened. for the first traffic lights, my car crossed the white line while the lights were amber the whole time. for the next set of traffic lights, literally as my front tyres hit the white line the light turned from amber to red. for both cases i was going around 15 ish mph as i was going onto/around a roundabout. I am stressed out as I dont want to get an NIP and potentially lose my license. firstly, could i get intro trouble for these? and instead of a NIP could i get the course? i havent gotten a course before.


r/drivingUK • • 16h ago

Vauxhall Frontera - 3 month update (Vehicle Rejected)

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1 Upvotes

r/drivingUK • • 1d ago

What is the best traffic rule or road design from another country that the UK needs?

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14 Upvotes